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Just saw on Sportscenter where Manny Para and Prince Fielder got into a one sided shoving match in the dugout tonight during the Reds game.

There have been more "public" confrontations this year during games (in my opinion) than in past years. I know that teams have problems with each other during seasons but it was taken care of in the clubhouse. Why is players now do it right away in the dugout instead of waiting to be alone with the rest of the team?

Does things like Sportscenter hurt because John Kruk mentions this sometimes being a positive thing (which I agree it sometimes can) because it gets things out in the air? Younger guys / kids hear this and think if it's happening then it's ok to do it.

Or could it be that media coverage is so thick there is no way to NOT see it on TV or net? It still happened back in the day but the media didn't pick up on all of it.

Your thoughts?

Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude. Thomas Jefferson

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I thought it was interesting to see the expression on Prince Fielder's face when he realized the camera was 'right there' ...

Now as to why it seems to be happening more often in front of the camers ... because (I think) it is happening more often and it is due to lousy impulse control on the part of the players involved. This is were I think MLB has changed so much over the past 10 years or so ... players have these temper tantrums in public, whether it be throwing a bucket of balls, firing a baseball into the stands, or shoving a teammate in the dugout, and they seem to go unpunished/undisciplined. Granted, we don't know all the goings on in the clubhouse and manager's office afterwards, but nevertheless, it continues to happen so whatever measures are being taken to stop it don't seem to be working very well.

I liked it better when the players could contain themselves till they were in the clubhouse or at least in the tunnel out of camera shot. And I also liked it a lot better when pitchers controlled their emotions on the mounds ... including, to some extent, the self-congratulatory exhuberance that some pitchers manifest.

By the way, a comment was made on Sportscenter that Prince Fielder is a leader on his team and all I could think of was ... Great ... what do the non-leaders act like in public?
I think it is a team thing and nothing more. It is a good young team starting to feel the pressure of a pennant race in which they have just recently fell a little further behind. I think it is a sign that they care and need to deal with the situation a little better. Hopefully the skipper will use it to bring the team together. They are fun to watch. Fielder is a freak of nature. Did you see his hops the other day? Wow did he get up in the air for a big guy.
i saw an interview with the mngr on espn that i think said it best.

" 8 months a year we're a family,when you here the family next door arguing it's rude to go knock on the door and ask what it's about.we'll handle it in the family."

i know it's all news all the time, but i thought this was a great responce. not what we want to here, but it is true.
You know for me there is no excuse. If you assaulted someone at your job you would be fired and most likely prosecuted.
The excuse its FAMILY, well if you assault someone in your family again NOT GOOD (people go to jail for that)
Quit making excuses for these guys. Theyre under pressure for a pennant race BIG DEAL they are being paid millions of dollars to be under pressure.
And people get on this board and say I dont know why this kid got drafter, he has a anger problem and throws his helmet, well hell fit right in with some of those guys.
There is no excuse to physically attack someone we are by making excuses telling our young boys that its ok to act out in your anger. It is never ok to act out in anger.
These people are paid by the public you and I by buying tickets and supporting MLB. They need to clean up their acts. Id rather see a bunch of young hungry guys and dump all these guys that think they have no rules to follow. They are not on a higher level than any of us.
I have pressure, we all have pressure. My husband has been through stuff at work where at times he could of hit somebody, but we cant. Its violence and there is never an excuse.
Im so tired of this well they are different they are under pressure, with the public scrutiny etc. well if the fires too hot get out. theyr are plenty of hardworking young men that can take their spots.
Isnt there a saying in baseball THERE ARE NO EXCUSES IN BASEBALL.
A fan gets a ball thrown at him because there is a brawl and he cant control his temper. BYE BYE bring in the next guy.
We wonder why are kids dont think they are accountable, we put these sports guys on freaking pedestals. they are paid professionals and if they cant handle that then fire all of them. Im getting quite sick of it. nad its not just in baseball.
I am going to play devils advocate her for a moment.

quote:
If you assaulted someone at your job you would be fired and most likely prosecuted.
The excuse its FAMILY, well if you assault someone in your family again NOT GOOD (people go to jail for that)


The above is mostly true. It is a bit of apples and oranges comparison in my opinion. At most jobs, one doesn't travel, eat, shower after work together Red Face, etc. In that way it is more like a family than a job. I don't know about anybody else on this board, but my brother and I used to fight like cats and dogs and were very competitive. Competition oft times leads to confrontation in physical endeavors. It always has. Dugout confrontations are as old as baseball itself. Do I condone it? No. I do understand the emotions running high. It is really hard to compare to a typical work situation. JMO

quote:
Quit making excuses for these guys. Theyre under pressure for a pennant race BIG DEAL they are being paid millions of dollars to be under pressure.


There is a difference between making excuses and explaining the behavior. For the record, they are paid to perform the game of baseball. Dealing with pressure at the big league level is a learned behavior.

quote:
There is no excuse to physically attack someone we are by making excuses telling our young boys that its ok to act out in your anger. It is never ok to act out in anger.
These people are paid by the public you and I by buying tickets and supporting MLB. They need to clean up their acts. Id rather see a bunch of young hungry guys and dump all these guys that think they have no rules to follow. They are not on a higher level than any of us.


Agreed, it is never ok to act out in anger. I don't believe the actions lead to telling boys it is ok unless parents are not doing their job.

If I want to see a bunch of hungry young guys, I will watch a minor league game. I want to pay to see the best of the best.

Nobody says they are on a higher level than us. However, traditionally it is handled in sport unless so agregious as to warrant criminal penalties. I suggest you take that up with the D.A. or lawmakers.

quote:
I have pressure, we all have pressure. My husband has been through stuff at work where at times he could of hit somebody, but we cant. Its violence and there is never an excuse.
Im so tired of this well they are different they are under pressure, with the public scrutiny etc. well if the fires too hot get out. theyr are plenty of hardworking young men that can take their spots.


I understand your sentiments. I used to work at one of the busiest car dealerships in the south and there was immense pressure and competition and numerous confrontations. In a pressure cooker win at all costs environment, it happens. These are go getters and aggressive salesmen and if you cannot keep up, get out of the way. If you jumped someone's customer and got the commission, be prepared. Never once was anybody arrested. If they were low producers they would get fired not arrested. Top producers were given a slap on the wrist. Not every work environment is in a vacuum.

quote:
A fan gets a ball thrown at him because there is a brawl and he cant control his temper. BYE BYE bring in the next guy.
We wonder why are kids dont think they are accountable, we put these sports guys on freaking pedestals. they are paid professionals and if they cant handle that then fire all of them. Im getting quite sick of it. nad its not just in baseball.


Bringing fans into it always gets the law into it. He was fired for throwing the ball into the stands and arrested. He was accountable. If kids think they are not accountable blame the parents who raise them, not baseball.

Your anger does mirror the feelings of many. It is in all of society, not just baseball.
It is very very hot under the magnifying glass. Tempers will flare.

These guys are young fierce competitors. Don't forget these guys are young men. Young men get in fights, especially competitive young men.

40+ guys together for 8 months ?

I am not proud of it, but I have been in a few throw downs myself in the football locker room and on a baseball team bus. We just needed to get our dispute aired out and young male athletes tend to do it physically. And we were great buddies after!

I don't condone it and I don't like to see it, but I understand it.

I would agree that these guys should have enough discipline to take care of business away from fans and cameras.

I wonder if these antics in the duggout are just another form of chest pounding. They know the cameras are everywhere.

I suppose if you wanted all of the players to hold hands and get along swimmingly for the whole season you could castrate them at the draft. Big Grin
Last edited by TripleDad
quote:
Originally posted by Bighit15:
If they were low producers they would get fired not arrested. Top producers were given a slap on the wrist. Not every work environment is in a vacuum.


And that's it right there. There were some serious discipline problems with two players on the LE team. The guy who was hitting a ton was (although 'handled' by his teammates Roll Eyes) given a severe dirty look by management. The guy who was an average producer had his PT cut.

We all hate to see this kind of behavior invade our sport, and we're all dismayed to see this, steroids, drugs, whatever allowed multiple chances given when we all know talented, well behaved young men who were never given a chance to show what they could do. Boy, you'd think life wasn't fair.

Parents share blame, IMHO, with the schools and programs along the way that treated the talented player as a cut above in aspects other than play, AND professional baseball. In the minors, a player is pretty much owned and it's certainly not the case (as in MLB) that the 'workers' make salaries with more zeroes than management. To me, the minors would be the place to make sure the prospects comport themselves in public in keeping with the philosophy of the club.
Orlando:

I appreciate your devils advocate. But I remain to my viewpoint. I would rather watch a minor league game then support people getting out of control.
Parents can do their jobs but kids watch this stuff repeatedly in sports.
Lets take Craig Biggio, lifetime player, stayed with his team, was a team player, did he ever act like this?Is Craig Biggio one of the best guys out there maybe not, but the guy played with a lot of heart. I remember a lot of the old timers, I went to games all the time with my dad when I was young it was not this bad.I would rather watch guys like that then these hot heads that think they are so good they dont even have to run to first base they can jog. Go ahead and support that I will not waste my money on watching guys that dont play the game the right way.
I understand they are together all the time, deal with it in private not in public.I dont want to see it. i understand when a guy gets a heater thrown at him , probably on purpose and hes upset, but public brawls and the stuff going on lately no thank you.
I will look forward to watching the little league world series soon. thats a bunch of kids with heart. I enjoyed immensely watching fresno State win the college world series. Bunch of s****** guys that nobody thought would win, they had no pitching, but they pulled together and played the game . I will take that anyday.
I watched my sons team win a first time section for their school, I watched as a team, they had problems during the year sometimes, they worked it out and when they got on the field they took care of business.
Doesnt really matter how you dissect my words i will never support the behavior of late with the MLB or whatever other sport. Not acceptable to me.
The statement made earlier that you want to watch these guys because they are so good, thats your choice .The whole steroid issue , the continuous scandals involved, the fighting, just isnt fun for me. And I love baseball but not like this.
And by the way I am not angry. Dont have the energy to waste anger on this type of stuff.There are way more important things in life to me such as: there a war in IRAQ and many of our young men are dying and being injured : that really bothers me
I have just been watching this stuff for a while and am just plain tired of it. People can make excuses for it all they want I personally dont like it and dont want to see it. For those of you who do continue to enjoy.
I think you all make great points, and I’d like to throw in what I thing is a great point too.

Although those kinds of flare-ups have gone on forever, its really only been in the last 40 years or so that the media has been willing to report any kind of transgression any celebrity might make. So, while it is being reported more often now, that doesn’t mean it wasn’t happening before.

However, I honestly think that a lot of what we’re seeing, is because there’s such a low level of team loyalty to players, an equally low level of player loyalty to teams, and an equally low level of loyalty of teams and players to the fans, with a corresponding low level of fan loyalty to the teams and players.

Everyone wants what they want, and to HE double hockeysticks with what anyone else wants. The number of zeroes on the bank statements have made the entire world of sports much more important than it should be, and it should only be expected that people who are worshiped enough by the fans to cause them to part with their money, will feel as though they can say and do anything they like, whenever they like, to whomever they like.
orlando,

I apologize. I just re read thread and realized that i addressed it wrong. But either way i have no issues with peoples opinions and like to hear ohter peoples viewpoints.
Skeep, good post. We have been loyal Brave fans for years. My husband as far back as when he was a kid in Wisconsin growing up watching Hank Aaron play. Its hard anymore to be loyal to a team when week to week the rosters change. love Chipper, one team guy, gave part of his salary back to help the braves out.is he perfect No, but he for the most part plays the game the right way. He plays for his TEAM not himself. I like those kind of guys.
and You are right as long as fans are willing to put up with the behavior becuase they are such good players it will continue and probably keep getting worse.
A thug is a thug is a thug.

Does that about sum it up?

Fielder, Ron Artest (NBA player who admitted to being "ghetto" this past week on ESPN, Stephen Smith (NFL player received 2 game suspension this week for punching teammate), Barry Bonds fighting with Jeff Kent in the dugout...

Violence is their M.O. it seems.

Fanofthegame, thanks for expressing yourself with how most of us have felt for some time.
I get so tired of people making excuses for athletes. Mad
They are for the most part living in a fantasy world and getting paid "GREAT" money to do so.

Where I work tempers tend to flare periodically, that's just human nature. What keeps it from escalating into what you witnessed on ESPN is the threat of losing a job or being out of work for an undisclosed amount of time without pay. Until the real world rules are put into the fantasy world, there will be absolutely no deterrent.

What makes it even worse in this situation is it was "part of the family". To me, that's unacceptable!
quote:
Originally posted by fanofgame:
It is never ok to act out in anger.


Trust me on this one, I hear ya.

But I hear Bighit also and understand both responses.

It's really hard to understand a lot of things, but do understand that as your sons leave home, and lives and competes closely with others, not everyone is going to be like your player. You will find that tempers flare at college, at the lower pro levels as well as the higher level. Not everyone is the same or deals with situations the same way. On the pro level, not eveyone comes from the same neighborhood you did or the same country for that matter. Same with college, but eh recruiter has done a better job of recruiting kids who might gel well together. They don't do that in proball.
The problem, IMO, there's just too much testosterone in the same place at the same time. Roll Eyes
In HS you may get annoyed at your teammate and he at you, but you can go home and there's a cooling off period. There's no cooling off period often when you are with the same guys for 8 months, 24/7.
You often don't hear about incidents on the lower level because these players are unknown. It's dealt with swiftly by being released. Even the ones who are the victims can get in hot water. As your worth becomes greater, you may face a night off, a few nights off and some fines. I don't think that anyone looks the other way, we just don't know the consequences each team gives out.

fanofgame,
Sending you a pm.
Last edited by TPM

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