What's the call???

quote:

As the pitcher winds up the 3rd base runner steals home and crosses the plate, the umpire calls the runner safe, but the batter swings at the pitch and is strikes out.

Which happended first...the runner crossing home of the swing? I'm not an umpire but I play one at home.

the runner crossed home and was called safe 1st

I have to believe the run counts. I'll ask my middle son when he gets home. He is a first year umpire. BTW...Great job for a teen during the summer.

Another great job might be for someone to explain to the 3rd base coach and the hitter how they could have killed that runner. What the heck is the hitter doing swinging on a straight steal of home?

Run counts if it was before the strike out. Confirmed by my 18 year old umpire.

Have your son read OBR 4.09 (a) EXCEPTION.

I think after reading the below that I disagree with you Jimmy03. I don't know the rule, which is why I asked the question here in this forum. I also asked an umpire that I work with that has been umpiring for nearly 6 years. He stated it is a timing play and that umpires are supposed to be aware of these types of situations. Below is what I found on your post 4.09 and it states a batter runner being put out at 1st base, nothing about striking out.
4.09 HOW A TEAM SCORES.
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first,
second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.
EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a
play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first
base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is
declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

quote:

Originally posted by shawns:
I think after reading the below that I disagree with you Jimmy03. I don't know the rule, which is why I asked the question here in this forum. I also asked an umpire that I work with that has been umpiring for nearly 6 years. He stated it is a timing play and that umpires are supposed to be aware of these types of situations. Below is what I found on your post 4.09 and it states a batter runner being put out at 1st base, nothing about striking out.
4.09 HOW A TEAM SCORES.
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first,
second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.
EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a
play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first
base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is
declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

Did the batter make it to first safely? Nope. Run does not count.

Tx-Husker....great point...the batter was let's say "less experienced" and missed the take signal. Thank you for bringing this up....

Shawn,
Jimmy and Matt have been umpiring a little longer than six years and have earned a lot of credibility here.

A timing play applies when the third out is made after the batter-runner reaches first base safely and all runners subject to being forced have safely reached their obligatory destinations.

Think about the logical consequence of your quibble that the rule Jimmy cited doesn't apply because the batter-runner didn't have to reach first. What if the third strike had been dropped and the catcher had thrown him out at first? By your interpretation, the run would not count in that situation but would count if the third strike was caught cleanly. That's just too silly to contemplate.

Matt13 nailed it.

Good explanation Swampboy.

thank you all for your input....during the game we did not score it as a run. The whole reason I brought the question up was for the friendly ribbing between the players on opposing teams...the kids play against one another in a town league, but will be playing on the all star team together. again, thank you all for your clarification and now we know the answer for the next time.

A little more color on this situation: 4.09 has the phrase during a play in which the third out is made....

Those who think that the run would score in the OP probably mistakenly believe that the play begins when the batter becomes a batter/runner. In fact, by common interpretation, the "play" begins when the pitcher commits to the pitch.

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You've had a great introduction to the HSBBW shawns. It's a place to learn a lot and enjoy. I'm glad you're aboard. Invite the players to join you. The whole bunch of you are welcome here.




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quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
A little more color on this situation: 4.09 has the phrase during a play in which the third out is made....

Those who think that the run would score in the OP probably mistakenly believe that the play begins when the batter becomes a batter/runner. In fact, by common interpretation, the "play" begins when the pitcher commits to the pitch.

Exactly. The runner stealing would have had to score before the "time of pitch" for the run to count.

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Now that makes sense.

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quote:

Originally posted by shawns:
I think after reading the below that I disagree with you Jimmy03. I don't know the rule, which is why I asked the question here in this forum. I also asked an umpire that I work with that has been umpiring for nearly 6 years. He stated it is a timing play and that umpires are supposed to be aware of these types of situations. Below is what I found on your post 4.09 and it states a batter runner being put out at 1st base, nothing about striking out.
4.09 HOW A TEAM SCORES.
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first,
second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.
EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a
play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first

A. Your friend is wrong.

B. The rule you state is right. The run does not score because the batter did not touch first before being put out.

quote:

Originally posted by fenwaysouth:
I have to believe the run counts. I'll ask my middle son when he gets home. He is a first year umpire. BTW...Great job for a teen during the summer.

And why are we stealing home with 2 strikes?

If the coach told the kid to steal home with2strikes he should be suspended for a safety violation.... About a year ought to teach him...

How can a batter even pull off a swing with someone sliding in under his feet? If he were a lefty, he'd have surely seen him coming and backed out.

It must have been one heck of a beautiful face-first slide in front of the plate, arm stretched out, reaching for the plate or something.

Otherwise, I can't even imagine what the OP is describing.

I've used a play where the batter takes a long slow swing, purposely nowhere near the ball, so the catcher can't come out and get the pitch

but in this case there were two strikes and two outs.

Has the OP told us if this was called by the coach or just an ill-advised play by an over-zealous baserunner?

-my original question was, did the run count because the umpire called the runner safe and that was answered
-we are not professional coaches, therefore the coach may not have known that it was "a rule" not to attempt to steal home with 2 strikes, i know i never heard that so maybe i'll pass that along to him--it was an effort to score a run and it seems there was unknowingly a mistake made
-I trust the coach that gave the ok to steal with my kids and know he wouldn't do anything to put our players safety in jeopardy, as i said in an earlier post, the batter was supposed to take the pitch and he swung anyway---fortunately the ball he swung at was over his head and the bat came no where near the runer
-the slide was a regular foot first slide, the batter was standing in the batter's box, not on the plate therefore he wasn't in the way of the advancing runner
-thanks again for the replies and i think we can stop beating this dead horse

shawns -

I think the horse still has a weak pulse...

There isn't a rule (except for any that individual programs may have) against what you described. It's just something you don't normally see.

The unwritten rule is that you don't want the batter to swing when a runner is stealing home. It's just too dangerous for the runner. Given that it was a two strike count, you wouldn't expect a batter to be given a take sign. The combination of the two is why it's an unusual situation.

However it does present a learning situation for all involved. When signaling a batter or runner for a "special" play, set up a confirmation sign the batter/runner has to give back. That way you know everyone is on the same page. Something simple like tapping the helmet is all you need. If you don't get the confirmation, call the play off.

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:

quote:

Originally posted by fenwaysouth:
I have to believe the run counts. I'll ask my middle son when he gets home. He is a first year umpire. BTW...Great job for a teen during the summer.

And why are we stealing home with 2 strikes?

Why not? Maybe the game was on the line?

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One last post on the subject...this nonsense of mine should squelch it!

You know papi we've got that lil' wide dog. Part schnauzer, part beagle, and the rest very "husky" husky. Remember? I brought her out with us last year when we stopped at your farmstand to buy a couple dozen of your jumbo 'free range' eggs. You weren't kidding about those eggs being 'free range'!

I cooked an omelette with them and those eggs weren't having any part of it. They got up and started doing 'The Chicken Dance' first and then they bolted right out of the skillet as soon as it got a little bit hot. They'd have made it to the back door and through the torn screen to freedom if not for the portly ham chunks I managed to load on top of them. Oh, and the shredded Cheddar...that really put them in a bind too. I corralled them...they didn't fly the coop.

Your comments above,

"I've used a play where the batter takes a long slow swing, purposely nowhere near the ball, so the catcher can't come out and get the pitch.",

reminded me of that dog you met, our beloved Strudel. She, like your 'free range' eggs, loves to roam. Particularly across the tracks and up to the mall. There's a German bakery in the food court that we can't keep her from. She cleans them out of strudel two or three times a week. It's becoming a problem for us. Our Strudel really gets their leiederhausen in a knot. Happy troopers they're not!

When I eventually show up they jump up and down and yell a lot. I understand the 'dummkoph'...I hear that all of the time elsewhere, but do you have any idea what "Sprechen sie deutsche?" means? And they bellow this line at me just about every time: "März werden wir sie direkt an die bank ... oder schlimmer!" And the odd thing, and you knew there would be an odd thing, is we named her Strudel when we thought she was some sort of straight haired poodle. Strudel the Poodle! It had nothing to do with the crazy dough throwers in the food court.

That particular play that you have used is real similar to something I have to use a few times each week.

I use a ploy where I drive in my beater and take a long slow swing, purposely nowhere near the mall, luring the dogcatcher so he can't come out and get the b!tch.

So far so good. Strudel is still with us. The 'Strudelmeisters' don't like it, but if they can run and catch them they can all go crack eggs.




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