When did the size of a player become important to the scouts and coaches?

its an awful thing, but bigger framed people they can distribute stress put on the body by pitching on a greater area reducing wear are tear,however proper mechanics greatly offsets that (few even in the majors have good mechanics anymore)
then you throw in the idea of pitching at a angles and the taller you are the greater the angle you throw from and the closer to home you are and both factors decrease the probability the batter will hit the ball on the money.
than you think about how much **** a scout or coach gets for taking a 5-8 guy whose seems great but gets hurt or doesnt quite pan on. the coach or scout is gona be ripped apart if he keeps messing up like this. it's a lot less likely anyone will really fault someone for picking a 6-6 monster because everyone can see because of size alone there is potential.

Then you think of the 5'10" left handed Billy Wagner that at one time threw a hundred mile per hour fast ball? Would the scouts be in as much trouble with a hard throwing 5' 10" left handed prospect in comparison to a right handed hard throwing prospect if both of them didn't pan out?

haha anytime someones throwing 100 mph you sign them up until they prove they have no hope of pitching, atleast i would. and than unfortunately it seems you take the lefty because theyre more sought after than the RHP

It has been that way for many years. It was like that when I was in HS. This is not a new trend by any means.

Backstop, If I were a scout and saw a dwarf out on the mound throwing a 100 mph fastball I think I would take my chances.

quote:

Backstop, If I were a scout and saw a dwarf out on the mound throwing a 100 mph fastball I think I would take my chances.

"If I call the office and tell them I have a 40-something guy throwing 98 I'm going to laughed at. If I don't tell them, I'm gonna get fired." Sorry it's a little off, but close enough

IRL, Jim Morris is a lefty. But they made the movie with a righty.

LHPMom

IRL, Jim Morris is a lefty. But they made the movie with a righty.
===================================================

are you sure? i think Dennis Quaid is a lefty.



my son is a lefty pitcher. 5'9" 200. built like a linebacker. to small to draft out of hs. 2 yrs later he was ok to draft. there are quite a few pitchers 6' or under. more than you'd think.

quote:

Originally posted by rain delay:

When did the size of a player become important to the scouts and coaches?

When scouts and players gained the advantage of sight.

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You mean when they threw away their scouting stick?

The taller the pitcher the greater the downward angle of the pitch. Left handers have more movement on the ball and have a better look at R1.

Observations as to what makes a more effective pitcher have been noted over decades. Scouts look for pitchers who fit as closely as possible to these criteria.

There are exceptions who are always pointed to in these types of discussions. Dwelling on them is counter productive to understanding how the process works. Trying to jam a square peg into a round hole just leaves you frustrated.

20Dad, you're right. He's left. I guess they just didn't talk about him being a lefty in the film, because I always wondered if that story would have happened to a right-handed pitcher.

LHPMom

Bakstop007 wrote:

quote:

think about how much **** a scout or coach gets for taking a 5-8 guy whose seems great but gets hurt or doesnt quite pan on. the coach or scout is gona be ripped apart if he keeps messing up like this. it's a lot less likely anyone will really fault someone for picking a 6-6 monster because everyone can see because of size alone there is potential.

There is a lot of truth in this. Was it someone on this board who said that tall pitchers have the advantage because "It's a lot easier to explain a million dollar mistake if that mistake is 6 foot 5."

Scouts are paid to find good genes AND great players.

Coaches are paid to take good genes and turn them into great players.

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quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
"It's a lot easier to explain a million dollar mistake if that mistake is 6 foot 5."

I think this quote can be attributed to a scout named Hubbell...Edwin Hubbell.


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He kept track of his prospects by means of a huge telescope deployed in outer space. His method was later revealed to having a flaw.

Tim Lincecum?

D1 pitcher at U of Washington; SF Giants starting pitcher after "quick" trip through MILB; Cy Young award winner last season.

5' 9", 180 lbs. I understand the exception proves the rule, but it can be done. I don't know what kind of "stuff" he had in HS (maybe PGStaff has some history on him), but talent will almost always make a place for itself.

A former teammate became a MLB GM. He told me one organization didn't have minor league managers do nightly reports on pitchers under 6'2" unless they threw consistantly in the 90's. This was before so many pitchers were hitting 90.

The Phillies scout lied by four inches on Jimmy Rollins height when he was in high school. He knew no one would take a 5'4" shortstop seriously.

So a 6'1" 195lbs size 14 shoe as a just turned 15 year is good? Oh has a radar timed 85 MPH fastball ( Not by me HS coach) and a curve that makes you laugh as it just makes kids crazy trying to hit it

You cannot teach size, regardless of the players position.

Do not worry about things you cannot control and there are a lot more players in the bigs under 6 foot in height than you think

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
You cannot teach size, regardless of the players position.

Do not worry about things you cannot control and there are a lot more players in the bigs under 6 foot in height than you think

Like most of the one's listed at 6'1" or less!

Here is an old article about this subject from PGCrosschecker that might interest some people.
How Tall Are Major League Players?

What I do not understand is why there is all this talk about how many smaller players have succeeded or how it is unfair how things are done by MLB scouts. If there is a 6'4" RHP and a 5'11" RHP the latter is going to have to outshine the former to get a nod. And if there is a 6'4" lefty he will get a longer look than either of the other two. There are certain attributes that have been shown to give a player an edge anad these are being sough first. And then it is a space available issue. No matter how much you discuss and decry how it is this is reality.

I'm taller than Bartolo Colon and I'm 5'11". Eckstein is more like a generous 5'5".

Dacque,
But scouts have a set idea of what they are looking for and you can't change that unless you are a that dwarf throwing over a hundred miles an hour or a 5'5" guy that can run like the wind. All I'm saying is there some special reason why size has become a bigger issue over the past 15-20 years in baseball? Could it be because of the steroid era or people in general are bigger than what they once were? Or maybe, the money (bigger, more expensive contracts) in baseball these days have caused the scouts to look for those of larger, bigger bodies.

quote:

Rain Delay quote:
But scouts have a set idea of what they are looking for.......

They may have an idea, but, by no means is it set. All baseball reports at that level are based on a trend analysis compiled over many years. If the numbers said a prototypical pitcher was 5'10' 170 lbs that's what they'd look for initially. However that is not to say any players falling out of a range are ignored as that would be a poor business strategy and a kiss of death for a scout. IMO, if a player ever uses the excuse that he was overlooked because of his size, I would wonder if he looked at himself in a higher regard than he deserved. When all is said and done it is about talent projection and results.

quote:

Originally posted by Daque:
The taller the pitcher the greater the downward angle of the pitch. Left handers have more movement on the ball and have a better look at R1.

Observations as to what makes a more effective pitcher have been noted over decades. Scouts look for pitchers who fit as closely as possible to these criteria.

There are exceptions who are always pointed to in these types of discussions. Dwelling on them is counter productive to understanding how the process works. Trying to jam a square peg into a round hole just leaves you frustrated.

raindelay,
Not sure if you caught this or not, but I think it pretty much sums up the situation.

Yes, there are players that defy description and the odds.

I do agree that some players of today are generally bigger and taller, might have a lot to do with evolution and better nuitrition and conditioning. Also, because of the hormones injested from eating steroid fed animals, puberty comes faster. So you might see a 21 year old more physically mature plkayer these days than those 21 of many years ago. Just my hunch.

I typed this before the above post, I agree with what was stated, talent projection and results gives you the opportunity.

I also agree with not worrying what you can't control, and height is not anything you have control over.

Who was that first round pick that won the Cy Young award in the National League last year?

Of course the smaller Major League player has to be special... The bigger Major League players have to be special, too!

In the end, talent will trump size every single time! Who was the American League MVP last year? Who was the National League MVP the year before? How many Cy Youngs have Greg Maddux and Pedro Martinez won? The player some say is the greatest catcher who ever lived? It's not a short list when it comes to smaller/shorter players being among the best in baseball. Not even these days!

Well, the average height of an adult American male is about 5'9".
I found this information about this:
"The average American man is 5'9". This means half of all American men are taller than 5'9", and half are shorter than 5'9"....It turns out that men's height falls onto what's called a standard distribution, or a gaussian curve, or a bell curve. Out of one hundred men, about 2/3 of them, about 68, are between 5'6" and 5'11". About 2/3 of all American men are 5'9" ± 3". About 1/3 of them are outside this range, with about half of those on each side. So, about 1/6 are 6' or taller, and about 1/6 are 5'5" or shorter. If we start looking for men who are much taller than 6' tall, we find that as their height goes up, they get more and more rare."

Maybe this is all irrelevent to baseball? I don't know, I just found it interesting given the discussion and thought I'd share it. I also can't vouch for the person who wrote it or the website, but I have no reason to doubt it either. I will post the website link in case anyone wants to read it themselves, I only quoted some of it.

http://investing.calsci.com/statistics.html

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Who was that first round pick that won the Cy Young award in the National League last year?

Of course the smaller Major League player has to be special... The bigger Major League players have to be special, too!

In the end, talent will trump size every single time! Who was the American League MVP last year? Who was the National League MVP the year before? How many Cy Youngs have Greg Maddux and Pedro Martinez won? The player some say is the greatest catcher who ever lived? It's not a short list when it comes to smaller/shorter players being among the best in baseball. Not even these days!

How can you not love a big man who continually stands up for the little guy!?

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quote:

Originally posted by BaseballGr8:

...gaussian curve.

I do think that's the curve I'm always rounding...and my wife gets after me every time!

quote:

Originally posted by gotwood4sale:
.

quote:

Originally posted by BaseballGr8:

...gaussian curve.

I do think that's the curve I'm always rounding...and my wife gets after me every time!

Just be careful going around those sharp curves!

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Something I wote last year...

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Both of mine are VERY tall...One a LHP...one bats left...

....I am simply THRILLED to hear once again that mine will receiving a fistfull of "free passes"! Thank you! Thank you! Thank You! The universe be praised! May your camels shed all their fleas!

But I need help....

...I don't mean to be rude, but could you please tell me when this might occur? Given your sentiments I promised these passes to my sons a long, long time ago, and I have yet to hear from anyone. Can you believe that both are in college now and no coach, recruiter, or scout has "rolled over" for height or handedness yet?

Now, I don't mean to whine, but mine continue to lose out to players who are faster, or have developed ealier, or throw harder, or are more agile, or have better body types, or whose fathers played pro ball, or who have better genes. Don't they understand that mine get free passes? I tell my son's that their passes are coming but I have yet to see them, and I am beginning to lose my fatherly credability. Maybe someone could call the coaches, scouts or recruiters and remind them?

Or do we have to apply? If so, where is the application? Leftylargesse.com? Southpawsubsidy.net? Hugehardball.org? Is there a deadline?

Please let us know if you have any information or suggestions.

In the meantime, while awaiting those "free passes" mine will continue to work hard and grind out a little success one day at a time as they have always done with the packages that they have been given...the good, the bad, and the ugly. They will foolishly continue to believe that passion, dedication, work ethic, attitude, and effort applied on a daily basis will do more for them than the "Free passes" you will soon be providing for tall and/or lefthanded players.

Yours truly,

44
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To sum this up.It still finally goes back to talent. How athletic you are and what potential you have will out shine your size.

44,

I don't think anyone's saying that being a tall lefty gets you a free pass. But I do think the tall lefty that has worked his tail off, and it shows, will get more attention that the shorter righty who has also worked his tail off.

LHPMom

44, I do agree if you're the son of a big league player, more doors are opened up. Just look at the article on the ESPN HS Baseball page about the Dystra kid. Now I don't want to take anything away from this young man, I'm sure he has worked hard like the rest of them and is a good ball player. But the name is known well in baseball circles.

A professional basketball player was being interviewed by a group of kids and one asked what was the most important thing a player could do to increase his chances to become a pro player. His response was, "Pick your parents very carefully."

The critical attributes of athletes are innate or genetically determined. Without that, all else matters not.

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It really comes down to being able to do something that sets you apart from all of the others...

Good post OB44, I got it.

Have suggestion for those who have trouble trying to figure it out. Take your sons to a major D1 college game. You will see players of all sizes that are really terrific. But remember that good college players, large or small have roles because they earned it and that may not translate into the next level.

Then take a trip to a milb game, and you can see the difference right away, large or small, they are there because of their tools and most likely projection.

Then watch an MLB game and it becomes even more apparent why some get there and why some don't.

It's not really hard to figure out that size can make a difference and then sometimes it doesn't.

And stop trying to figure out what scouts want because each organization is different and has different needs and different type players and use different philosophies.

Using mine as an example, a 6'4" power righty, some teams were interested and some were not. That's just how it is.

Just a suggestion.