I would like to see everyone's opinion about who is the best in Virginia. Feel free to reply.
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This could be a short discussion.
(Well, maybe not.)
There are a lot of good programs, but the Canes are generally considered to be the top of the heap.
(By the way, I have no association with them.)
(Well, maybe not.)
There are a lot of good programs, but the Canes are generally considered to be the top of the heap.
(By the way, I have no association with them.)
Canes and Braves organizations have won the National 16U World Wood Bat in East Cobb the last three years in a row. Virginia should be proud.
The Canes won the last two WWBA 16u championships in a row, so I give them the nod right now.
I'm not associated with either team at this time.
The Canes won the last two WWBA 16u championships in a row, so I give them the nod right now.
I'm not associated with either team at this time.
Canes. Hands down.
It depends......
You stated "Travel". IMO, there's a difference between showcase and travel.
My experience with showcase is you show up and play in front of recruiters/scouts. Yes, you might have a practice here and there, but that's not always the case. There's no daddy-ball. The coaches are normally paid professionals. The kids on the team have college/MLB potential talent. Players usually play one or two positions. And yes, the Canes "showcase" their kids very-very well.
Travel is more developmental. These teams, IMO, are coached by a dad(s) and are associated with a league. For 16U, they might attend a "showcase" or two during the season. The "showcases" we attended with our old travel team wasn't really a showcase that we are now accustomed to. HOWEVER, my son was able to play (develop) in three positions.
Most of the kids on our showcase team have a showcase team and a travel team. The showcase team will play in six or seven events (usually weekends) during the summer. Maybe four during the fall. In between the showcase events, kids play on a travel team for weekday baseball. There are some teams up here that are both showcase and travel. They compete in the NVTBL travel league and attend six to seven showcase events.
So, to answer your question.....I think the consensus is obvious on the showcase team. For travel, I can only speak for NoVa. My guess would have to be the good teams associated with NVTBL--Stars, Renegades, and Dragons. I'm not sure about the Renegades and Dragons, the Stars are both showcase and travel. Those three top my list for travel teams.
Showcase:
1. Canes
2. Richmond Braves/Virginia Cardinals (tie)
3. NoVa Patriots (quickly rising)
Travel:
1. Stars (under new Mgt)
2. Dragons
3. Renegades
You stated "Travel". IMO, there's a difference between showcase and travel.
My experience with showcase is you show up and play in front of recruiters/scouts. Yes, you might have a practice here and there, but that's not always the case. There's no daddy-ball. The coaches are normally paid professionals. The kids on the team have college/MLB potential talent. Players usually play one or two positions. And yes, the Canes "showcase" their kids very-very well.
Travel is more developmental. These teams, IMO, are coached by a dad(s) and are associated with a league. For 16U, they might attend a "showcase" or two during the season. The "showcases" we attended with our old travel team wasn't really a showcase that we are now accustomed to. HOWEVER, my son was able to play (develop) in three positions.
Most of the kids on our showcase team have a showcase team and a travel team. The showcase team will play in six or seven events (usually weekends) during the summer. Maybe four during the fall. In between the showcase events, kids play on a travel team for weekday baseball. There are some teams up here that are both showcase and travel. They compete in the NVTBL travel league and attend six to seven showcase events.
So, to answer your question.....I think the consensus is obvious on the showcase team. For travel, I can only speak for NoVa. My guess would have to be the good teams associated with NVTBL--Stars, Renegades, and Dragons. I'm not sure about the Renegades and Dragons, the Stars are both showcase and travel. Those three top my list for travel teams.
Showcase:
1. Canes
2. Richmond Braves/Virginia Cardinals (tie)
3. NoVa Patriots (quickly rising)
Travel:
1. Stars (under new Mgt)
2. Dragons
3. Renegades
quote:Originally posted by 13LHPdad:
It depends......
You stated "Travel". IMO, there's a difference between showcase and travel.
My experience with showcase is you show up and play in front of recruiters/scouts. Yes, you might have a practice here and there, but that's not always the case. There's no daddy-ball. The coaches are normally paid professionals. The kids on the team have college/MLB potential talent. Players usually play one or two positions. And yes, the Canes "showcase" their kids very-very well.
Travel is more developmental. These teams, IMO, are coached by a dad(s) and are associated with a league. For 16U, they might attend a "showcase" or two during the season. The "showcases" we attended with our old travel team wasn't really a showcase that we are now accustomed to. HOWEVER, my son was able to play (develop) in three positions.
Most of the kids on our showcase team have a showcase team and a travel team. The showcase team will play in six or seven events (usually weekends) during the summer. Maybe four during the fall. In between the showcase events, kids play on a travel team for weekday baseball. There are some teams up here that are both showcase and travel. They compete in the NVTBL travel league and attend six to seven showcase events.
So, to answer your question.....I think the consensus is obvious on the showcase team. For travel, I can only speak for NoVa. My guess would have to be the good teams associated with NVTBL--Stars, Renegades, and Dragons. I'm not sure about the Renegades and Dragons, the Stars are both showcase and travel. Those three top my list for travel teams.
Showcase:
1. Canes
2. Richmond Braves/Virginia Cardinals (tie)
3. NoVa Patriots (quickly rising)
Travel:
1. Stars (under new Mgt)
2. Dragons
3. Renegades
All valid points, 13LHPdad, but by 16U year, most kids are moving to the better Showcase teams. As you say, in NOVA (not in other parts of the state), some kids play a travel team and a showcase, but if you are on the Canes or R-Braves 16U or 17U, you do not have time for another team. Additionally, Canes and R-Braves get kids from all over the state (and some from out of state). Some of the teams you mentioned from NOVA MAY be up and coming, but up til now, they have not be in the same league as those two-- they are heads and shoulders (as teams) above anyone else.
Now, that said,-- you don't have to play for them to play in good tournaments, attend good showcases AND get good coaching (FYI Canes do no "coaching/ developing" at that level- they recruit to win tournaments- even adding players as they go along and good kids whose families paid upfront to be "Showcased" find their kids are not getting that- R-Braves recruit from all over but do not add players in season, to my knowledge-but do little coaching at that level either).
Important to know what you are getting for your money. And plenty of kids have come out of NVTBL, Virginia Cardinals,Mid-Atlantic Pirates and gone on to D1 programs BUT, when asking which teams are the "best" as in best teams on the field, nobody else is in the same league as Canes or Braves at the 16U and 17U level.
BTW, my kids are are out of college and in college, so do not have a plug one way of the other at the 16U level.
I also don't have a dog in this fight, but I would ask if you are asking for the best team that claims VA as its home, or a team made up of all VA players.
The Canes have won the last 2 WWB 16U's in East Cobb, while featuirng some exceptional talent from places like MA & CA. I'll say right up front that I don't have a problem with that, but I do differentiate between a national travel team and a VA-team (like the Cardinals, with whom I have no affiliation either).
The Canes have won the last 2 WWB 16U's in East Cobb, while featuirng some exceptional talent from places like MA & CA. I'll say right up front that I don't have a problem with that, but I do differentiate between a national travel team and a VA-team (like the Cardinals, with whom I have no affiliation either).
quote:Originally posted by southpaw_dad:
I also don't have a dog in this fight, but I would ask if you are asking for the best team that claims VA as its home, or a team made up of all VA players.
The Canes have won the last 2 WWB 16U's in East Cobb, while featuirng some exceptional talent from places like MA & CA. I'll say right up front that I don't have a problem with that, but I do differentiate between a national travel team and a VA-team (like the Cardinals, with whom I have no affiliation either).
Good points-- I was trying to point out (maybe not so well) that there is the distinction you make (and i don't have a problem either but parents and players need to know what they are getting). If this is just a discussion to "bandy about" who is the best OK-- if someone is asking who the best teams are--maybe to have a kid try out for that team-- be aware is all I say-- Canes not only have players from AR, CA and MA-- they will pick one up this week at a tourney, pay their way the rest of the year and someone is now sitting that thought they were gong to get "showcased". If the NOVA kids are still getting some "coaching" thru what 13LHPdad calls "travel" vs "showcase" - then good for them. Not much of that on Canes or Braves, especially at 16/17 level.
quote:Originally posted by Prep Ballfan:
...Not much of that on Canes or Braves, especially at 16/17 level.
To say their is no development or coaching on the Canes is ludicrous and inaccurate. I am a coach for the Canes and I can tell you I spend most every weekend working with the kids. Whether it is extra groundball work or extra BP (which is usually 60-70% of the team), we are working with our kids.
It is not feasible to practice during the week, given our geographic challenges.
I have continually heard this about the Canes and does not accurately represent us. It is said by certain teams to scare kids from playing with us, which is false and misleading.
quote:Originally posted by redbird5:quote:Originally posted by Prep Ballfan:
...Not much of that on Canes or Braves, especially at 16/17 level.
To say their is no development or coaching on the Canes is ludicrous and inaccurate. I am a coach for the Canes and I can tell you I spend most every weekend working with the kids. Whether it is extra groundball work or extra BP (which is usually 60-70% of the team), we are working with our kids.
It is not feasible to practice during the week, given our geographic challenges.
I have continually heard this about the Canes and does not accurately represent us. It is said by certain teams to scare kids from playing with us, which is false and misleading.
I concur with Redbird...Canes do it all...and they do it well...their record speaks for itself.
Canes, Stars, Braves, Patriots, Rookies, Drillers...you make these teams, you can't go wrong...IMHO
quote:Originally posted by 13LHPdad:
Travel is more developmental. These teams, IMO, are coached by a dad(s) and are associated with a league. For 16U, they might attend a "showcase" or two during the season. The "showcases" we attended with our old travel team wasn't really a showcase that we are now accustomed to. HOWEVER, my son was able to play (develop) in three positions.
FWIW, I'm finding that more and more travel teams are hiring coaches and pushing aside Daddyball from 13U up (my unscientific impression is that most of the teams now have outside coaches). The parents are involved with the management of the team, but on field decisions are made by the hired coaches. The coaches are often young guys giving back to the game: not married, mid-late twenties, college and some pro ball experience, and sometimes affiliated with baseball facilities. Occasionally there is involvement with HS coaches (not HCs), but the conflict with the Spring mitigates this.
Removing parents from the field and replacing them with these Gen Y coaches is working very well: for the most part it's a better level of instruction, it removes the parents from the field, and the players can better relate to the Gen Y instructor (and vice versa). IMHO: it bodes well for the development cycle.
"Daddyball" will always be with us, in one form or another. There MAY be a team or two out there right now that is not primarily "daddyball," but they are the rare exception. Before you get all riled up, understand that by "daddyball" I am including any of the teams that "recruit" or select players primarily by way of connections. For example, Coach X, a HS coach, knows Coach Y, a showcase coach, from years of dealing with him in baseball circles. Now, some of Coach X's players may be worthy of playing on Coach Y's team. But not all of them are. Probably, very few are. Still, Coach Y may do Coach X a favor by keeping Player A for weekend tournaments, boosting that kid's reputation and so forth. Daddy may not be involved, but Coachy is. This happens ALL THE TIME in ALL SPORTS that utilize the club concept.
There are countless examples of this sort of thing going on in almost all, if not all, organizations. I KNOW, because I have been on all sides of baseball and seen it from all angles.
None of this should detract from the really great stuff that many of these teams, even if influenced by the broad concept of "daddyball," are doing. Celebrate these teams, but please don't ever kid yourself that any of them is without outside influence being brought to bear on at least some of their selections and decisions.
There are countless examples of this sort of thing going on in almost all, if not all, organizations. I KNOW, because I have been on all sides of baseball and seen it from all angles.
None of this should detract from the really great stuff that many of these teams, even if influenced by the broad concept of "daddyball," are doing. Celebrate these teams, but please don't ever kid yourself that any of them is without outside influence being brought to bear on at least some of their selections and decisions.
Oh, and meant to mention, where mom and dad have ANY play in the program, whether in scheduling, making hotel reservations, or collecting money, the coaches in that program are being influenced by those parents (is the coach who collects his paycheck from Parent M going to sit M's son?). It is, as I define it, "daddyball." And this is rampant in all Club Sports.
I do not currently have a kid that plays on any of these teams. I have no personal interest or current direct involvement with any of the teams listed above. I do know several players who are or have been on the Canes, the Stars, and the Orioles. These programs have some similarities and some differences.
The Stars, as has been mentioned in this thread, do play some local NVTBL games, and hold practices, in addition to playing showcase tournaments. There is more opportunity to do some coaching away from pregame/gametime situations than some of the other programs. They have been quite successful, but some of their teams have had a significant "Daddyball" component to them. IMHO, that has been a bit of a drawback to them, and there has been some difference in the level of exposure to good colleges within some of the players on their teams as a result. Again, just my opinion, not trying to get anyone upset. That said, there have been some coaching changes, so that component may not be as big of an issue going forward.
The Canes have multiple teams within each age group, and each team has different coaches, so there is a degree of variation of coaching and exposure from one Canes team to another, even within the same age group. They run solid showcase tournaments, and from what I've seen, their teams often get better opportunities for "looks" within the tournaments they have run. I agree with most of what has already been written about the Canes teams.
The Tidewater Orioles are a single team, run by a single individual, and from what I've seen they are a harder team to get onto than most others, especially if you're not from the Tidewater area. They are largely a fall-only showcase team, playing just a couple of tournaments in the summer as well. They are very well-run and high-level.
Again, not trying to "sell" you or anyone on any program, or scare you away, either -- just giving my point of view on these programs from my experience.
The Stars, as has been mentioned in this thread, do play some local NVTBL games, and hold practices, in addition to playing showcase tournaments. There is more opportunity to do some coaching away from pregame/gametime situations than some of the other programs. They have been quite successful, but some of their teams have had a significant "Daddyball" component to them. IMHO, that has been a bit of a drawback to them, and there has been some difference in the level of exposure to good colleges within some of the players on their teams as a result. Again, just my opinion, not trying to get anyone upset. That said, there have been some coaching changes, so that component may not be as big of an issue going forward.
The Canes have multiple teams within each age group, and each team has different coaches, so there is a degree of variation of coaching and exposure from one Canes team to another, even within the same age group. They run solid showcase tournaments, and from what I've seen, their teams often get better opportunities for "looks" within the tournaments they have run. I agree with most of what has already been written about the Canes teams.
The Tidewater Orioles are a single team, run by a single individual, and from what I've seen they are a harder team to get onto than most others, especially if you're not from the Tidewater area. They are largely a fall-only showcase team, playing just a couple of tournaments in the summer as well. They are very well-run and high-level.
Again, not trying to "sell" you or anyone on any program, or scare you away, either -- just giving my point of view on these programs from my experience.
I use a narrower definition of "Daddyball."
There are lots of high school and college coaches who have coached their own sons at serious programs, and I don't call that "Daddyball."
I also don't call it "Daddyball" if the the coach of a travel/showcase team a) has legitimate baseball credentials to coach at the level the team is playing, b) treats his son like the other players, and c) gives comparable attention to developing/promoting the other players.
If dad is a serious baseball coach and son is a serious prospect, their common association with the same team does not, by itself, make it "Daddyball."
I reserve "Daddyball" for those teams that are organized as a vehicle for promoting junior and the other kids are just there to pay bills and bask in his glory. It's when the kid gets opportunities he doesn't deserve, other players don't get opportunities they deserve, and coach climbs the coaching ladder in lockstep with his son's career that I start wanting to use the term.
In this respect, I do not consider the Stars teams I have seen (that would be the older ones) to be "Daddyball" operations.
There are lots of high school and college coaches who have coached their own sons at serious programs, and I don't call that "Daddyball."
I also don't call it "Daddyball" if the the coach of a travel/showcase team a) has legitimate baseball credentials to coach at the level the team is playing, b) treats his son like the other players, and c) gives comparable attention to developing/promoting the other players.
If dad is a serious baseball coach and son is a serious prospect, their common association with the same team does not, by itself, make it "Daddyball."
I reserve "Daddyball" for those teams that are organized as a vehicle for promoting junior and the other kids are just there to pay bills and bask in his glory. It's when the kid gets opportunities he doesn't deserve, other players don't get opportunities they deserve, and coach climbs the coaching ladder in lockstep with his son's career that I start wanting to use the term.
In this respect, I do not consider the Stars teams I have seen (that would be the older ones) to be "Daddyball" operations.
Canes and Braves are very very good, Canes have alot of talent, I think both the Canes and Braves both respect the Drillers as they are a very good team with a national title at 15U and some legendary coaching. Hitters wharehouse is getting better but they can't seem to keep the good players around very long.
quote:Showcase:
1. Canes
2. Richmond Braves/Virginia Cardinals (tie)
3. NoVa Patriots (quickly rising)
When we (Virginia Cardinals) got started last spring, I replied to someone by saying that if we were going to get mentioned in the same breath with established top programs like the Braves and Canes by year's end, that would be quite the compliment. So this is much appreciated.
That being said, we are 17u only. We have some 2013's on our roster, and I have no reluctance to say they are among the very best anywhere in VA, but we don't have enough to field a 16u squad.