Why do youth and high school game officials quit? 75%, adult behavior

Sad but imo getting worse, in my now 14u son's 10U meaningless local travel game, an asst coach and parents were tossed by HPU for behavior. They threatened him as they were leaving and the asst coach had to be restrained and dragged out. Our coaching staff escorted the HPU to his car. Last year there 2 were fist fights in under 12 basketball games from parents.

To increase the pool of HS game officials, increase their paycheck.   Since parents are the problem,  make them pay for it with a separate pay-for-play surcharge.  

Oh great, then an official would get even more comments related to "what" some parent is "paying for".  At a HS event an effective "game administrator" helps, but that individual is usually an employee of the home school. There have been instances where they either ignore the leather lung parent(s) or they are part of the problem. Throwing money at the problem won't necessarily "fix it", but could mean you get officials that only care about the paycheck. The worst games to officiate IMO are the travel games where the parents are paying for everything *and* they know it. There's no ramification for anyone getting tossed. In HS, a coach getting tossed usually has repercussions.

The answer is not necessarily paying the officials more, but the AD's of the host school monitoring crowd behavior.

A few years back parents of players on our local HS football team berated their own coach so bad at an away game, law enforcement was called by the host schools AD and these parents were escorted off the grounds and told in no uncertain terms to never return or charges would be forthcoming.

Ever since then a statement regarding fan sportsmanship is read before every home HS event regardless of sport.

I started as an umpire when my kids hung up the cleats 7-8 years ago.   From my cadet class of 20... there may be 2 left.  They did not leave officiating, they left for other sports.  Basketball, lacrosse, softball.   While, no one got into umpiring to get rich, time and $ are always part of the conversation.  A HS baseball game takes 2.5 hrs ... pay 75.  Softball 1 hour, lacrosse 1 hour, basketball 1.5 hrs.   From what I hear - all are the same or better pay than baseball.   even though I am a Varsity certified ump... I do not do any HS games because the job that pays my rent does not afford me the opportuniy to be at a field by 330.  Almost no baseball fields near us have lights, as it does not make sense to have a mid week game start at 7 that does not get the kids home and in bed before 11.  While at the youth level, I have had my fair share of unruly coaches and parents (none to the extent of physical threats) - I have to be honest and say the brothers in blue often dig their own grave.   They do not difuse a situation... they dont hustle to get in the proper position ... they have a chip on the shoulder and often go right back at the coaches / parents - throwing gas on the fire.   The coaches and parents often expect an MLB level ump... when in reality we are as far away (or farther) from the MLB as the last rostered kid ontheir teams.

A bit off topic, but I have to say that since my son got to HS I have been consistently impressed by the umpiring that I have seen.  These guys may not be getting paid much, but they take it very seriously and provide a real air of professionalism.  And, most importantly, they definitely seem to get most of the calls right.

My son just passed an umpire certification program offered by one of the local organizations - he told me everyone in his class was in high school. And I have to say that, while he hasn't worked a game yet (still too cold here in the N.E.), this is one of my biggest worries - how he'll deal with the parents. He's got a level head and doesn't really anger easily so that should help. And they start them off with the 6u and 7u kids so hopefully he's got some time to get comfortable before the insanity sets in. Though I have been to a couple of 7u games back in the day where there were future MLB parents in attendance - I'm sure they would have attested to at the time anyway :-)

BK-CatcherDad posted:

My son just passed an umpire certification program offered by one of the local organizations - he told me everyone in his class was in high school. And I have to say that, while he hasn't worked a game yet (still too cold here in the N.E.), this is one of my biggest worries - how he'll deal with the parents. He's got a level head and doesn't really anger easily so that should help. And they start them off with the 6u and 7u kids so hopefully he's got some time to get comfortable before the insanity sets in. Though I have been to a couple of 7u games back in the day where there were future MLB parents in attendance - I'm sure they would have attested to at the time anyway :-)

In our area - he would be a cadaet... there is a strict policy that no parent or coach question / argue etc wuth the cadet umpires - the result could be lifetime ban from the league.   Cadets are also paired with an adult umpire for.  As a fed umpire that gets paired with cadets often - I make sure that is followed - protect the cadet and report the troublemakers to the league and my assignor.   We also report cadets that are lacking the skill / desire to ump.   They will find themselves forever at 7U and with much reduced game assignments.  

I did football, basketball, softball, and baseball until my older two hit high school.  Have done very little in the past few years because I was not willing to miss my son's games.  I'm going to get back into it next year.  Several problems.  Lack of training.  Most associations throw guys out there and do not train them adequately in real games or scrimmages.  The good places put veteran guys with them.   Not enough promotion.  The older or clique guys get all the good games even if they are not the best officials.  Pay.  My last several years I chose to do college or middle school.  I could get more games in with more money and less arguments in middle school over varsity, especially basketball.  Middle school baseball was horrible.  Couldn't pay me to do it. 

I think all HS officials worry too much about what happens outside lines.  Unless they curse you or threaten you who cares.  You are getting paid but you should do your job.  Agree with other posters that the biggest problem with officials is many do not hustle or get the easy calls right.  Call consistent balls and strikes and run wherever you go.  Keep a good game pace and don't talk to fans at all.

Travel ball is a different situation.  But it still comes down to don't talk to fans and if they curse you or threaten you send them.

I don't know how much credence to assign the survey.

When our association loses members, the most common reasons given seem to be age/infirmity, work/family schedule conflicts, or unhappiness with level/quality of games assigned. 

My hunch is that parent behavior may be more of a factor in decisions by less experienced umpires not to pursue umpiring as a long-term avocation. Umpiring probably isn't fun for people who don't learn to tune out irrelevant noise. 

In my own experience, I haven't seen a trend in parent behavior over time. Each year, it seems that zero, one or two games have something ugly happen. Very seldom in a high school varsity game. More often in local tournaments late on a hot day. 

Umpires have some power to influence the tone. Being professional, approachable, and courteous has a good effect on the conduct of game participants and fans. 

Training, evaluation, and recognition will do wonders for any association. Keeping perspective, checking your attitude/ego, being consistent, taking/giving partner criticism, and giving your all to show that you not only "know" the rules, but you can also "interpret" them properly in given situations.  Takes a long time to get there and you have to keep learning to keep earning. I'm in associations now where I see training is rewarded and am much happier and more informed.

Regardless of the survey and why umpires quit, they’re quitting. Also bad, others who might otherwise get involved don’t. There is a shortage of umpires in states all over the country. In the big picture it points towards adult behavior. 

When my daughter was in high school she umpired preteen softball games on nights she didn’t have travel practice. My son reffed preteen soccer games on Saturday’s. It’s the only thing I allowed them to quit and walk away from in their life. The verbal abuse wasn’t worth $15 per game. Adult coaches trying to intimidate them wasn’t worth $15 per game. The abuse came even though they were recognized, accomplished high school athletes.

The youth sports program tried to implement high school and college kids as game officials into the preteen programs. They weren’t sanctioned game officials. The program was trying to keep costs down. Both kids complained neither the coaches or parents knew the rules yet they were being harassed. My daughter decided it was enough when a dad coach got up in her face, tried to intimidate her into changing a call, he body bumped her, she backed up, he bumped her again, she ejected him, he refused to leave and team parents harassed her the rest of the game. I told her she should have got in her car and left when the coach refused to leave the field. She said it wouldn’t have been fair to the girls. 

She didn’t care what happened to the coach. It shouldn’t have happened once. My son decided five hours (five soccer games) of parents yelling at him wasn’t worth $75. 

Ignorant parents don’t understand when a game official is doing the game alone they don’t see everything. They don’t always have a good angle. They don’t understand if the game official calls everything the game won’t have any flow and there will be more dead time than play time. In an early age game you ref to protect kids from getting injured and help them learn. You make the egregious violation calls. 

Even high school refs have to start somewhere. I thought it was cool when I saw refs that used to do my kids 11/12 basketball games on the floor doing high school games. 

The biggest frustration I have with parents and coaches when working either baseball or football games is the lack of knowledge--not understanding that there are rule differences between what they watch on TV and their kids' level of play. For the most part, I ignore them, but there are times when it's difficult. Certainly don't do it for the money, but V games here are only $65...

-42

I retired from umpiring baseball after 15-years. The following is a letter that I sent to the head of officiating in the area (locations and names have been XXXX'd out to protect their identity.

I regretful need to let you know that I will no longer be umpiring baseball. Over the past few months I have thought long and hard as to whether I want to continue umpiring or not.

I began umpiring 15-years ago after my eldest son finished playing high school baseball in California. I got into umpiring because after having two sons play the game for better than 10-years, I realized how much I enjoyed the game and being around young people.

My first 10-years umpiring was in California where I was a member of the XXXXXXXX. This is one of many associations in California serving both high school and summer youth baseball. This group handled about 25 high schools all located in one county. The association had about 30 umpires that you got to know real well, the assignor knew everyone and the distances were all relatively short (my longest commute to games is equal to my shortest commute in XXXXXXX). I enjoyed my relationships and the community we served.

I have now been in XXXXXXXX for 4-years. While I still enjoy the game and the kids, I have lost my passion for umpiring.  

I wanted to share with you the factors that I considered when making my decision.

1.      The quality at baseball is quite different here in XXXXXXX. The good varsity teams are comparable to the good varsity teams in California. However, the less than elite varsity teams and the sub-varsity teams are far inferior. This is important because the kids can’t play the game at a level where umpiring doesn’t produce an undue risk of injury for umpires. 

Last year I broke my hand because the kids did not have the skills to play the game. Two seasons ago, I was hit in the shoulder multiple times in a single game because the pitcher had no idea where he was throwing the ball, the catcher was afraid of getting hit or lacked the ability to catch the ball and the coach was giving the kids instructions that they could not execute that created unnecessary risk of my getting injured.

I have umpired too many games with huge lopsided games that can last 3-hours for a team to get to the 5^th inning. There are common factors that create these games; kids that can’t catch and throw, pitchers that can’t pitch, bad coaching that translates into kids that don’t know what they are doing and teams that are inadequately prepared to play at the most basic level of the game. When the only criteria for a player making a team and playing is signing up to play, it creates terrible baseball which both non-productive but more importantly not safe.

2.      The quality of coaching here in XXXXXX runs from disciplined and intense, to benign incompetence. Good teams are good for a reason; coaches attract kids that what to play and they demand hard work and excellence both on the field and off. However, this is not the case in all programs. There are too many programs where there are there are not enough players to effectively field a team. They can put 10-11 kids out for a game, but there is inadequate depth to both practice and improve and to compete with teams that have a full roster.

3.      One of the most disappointing aspects of umpiring here in XXXXXXX is the general disdain and disrespect for those that umpire. There are too many (not all, just too many) coaches that make umpiring miserable. It is not all games, but there are too many instances where coaches make the game and life miserable.  There are too many coaches that believe that the job of the coach is to argue calls through any means possible. It is not good enough to have a difference of opinion when you they have the ability to insult or intimidate.  

Umpires are required to take and pass a rules test every year. Yet there are countless coaches that have never cracked the rules book let alone understand the differences that exist in high school baseball rules.  I have always treated umpiring at the high school level as an exercise in safety. Yet there are countless coaches that scoff at many of the high school safety rules and use as a way to resist the authority of umpires.

The disdain of coaches towards umpires is at a point that I don’t want to umpire any more.

4.      The economics of umpiring in XXXXXX is not good. Most of the games that umpired over the past four-years have required a round trip commute of 45 minute to two-hours. To be at a 4pm game it was not unusual to have to leave home 45-minutes to an hour before the game. If the game lasted 2-hours (they could last up to three hours) you would likely get caught in commute traffic heading home at 6-6:30pm. It was not uncommon that a typical game from doorstep to doorstep be 3 ½ to 4 hours. On top of this my average round trip commute was 40-60 miles.

 Over 15-years pay for umpiring high school baseball has not gone up at all. The bottom line is the economics of umpiring is not good. Factor in five preseason meetings, a scrimmage and a required evaluation and you absorb up to several hundred miles of driving before the season even starts. Last year I did an analysis of both the revenue I receive and the cost to umpire games and concluded that over the season I made less than $5.50 per hour, not counting medical cost to treat a broken hand.

Last year I found myself turning down games that I knew would be horrible. I have limited the area that I am willing to do games so that can limit the total amount of time it takes to do a game. In so doing, I know that I am limiting the number of available games that I can be assigned to which only makes the issues that I find difficult more acute. I realized that I am at the point where I would rather turn back a game that is likely to be bad than to endure an afternoon that is at best miserable and likely to be unsafe to officiate. If I have return games, I know that I should not be umpiring any more.

The XXXXX under its current system has no way of truly getting to know its officials. The reliance on the XXXXXXX is only a band-aid on the problem of developing, managing and keeping competent umpires. It is impossible under the current system for someone to show up and to be effectively integrated into a system which is dependent on years of service to become a known commodity which can be integrated into an established and ingrained system. This is not a criticism of either the XXX or XXXXXX, it is only the realization that I no longer have the time, energy and now the desire to continue umpiring in the current system.

I want to say thank you for all that you have done for me the past 4-years. You have shown real compassion and a true willingness to help. But in spite of all that you have done and your continued willingness to help, I have concluded that I have reached a point that I no longer want to umpire.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

On top of the poor pay for baseball officiating, after you factor in driving, wear and tear on your car and on your body etc.. the start up cost for a new ump is enough to dissuade any new comers.  In my state, you are required to get fingerprinted which is over $100 fee.  Also have to pay member dues at $100.  Add to that fees for district processing, your uniform pants, jacket, shirt and hat totaling another $150.  Plate shoes/base shoes at $100 each.   Protective equipment (helmet, pads, cup, shin guards, etc can add another $150 easy).  You have to spend well over $600 before you even make one dime.  And being a new umpire you don't get the schedule the veterans do, work less games and only work JV or modified for less pay.  You probably don't even make any money the first year.  Hard to convince a new person to come up with all that starting money, put all those miles on their car, jump through all the administrative hoops, go to all the required pre-season meetings, pass all the tests, get yelled at by coaches and parents, risk personal injury, and in the end, not even make any money for it.  I don't know any other job that would happen with.  You really have to love the game.

Whether it's rec ball or travel ball, before we take the field for our first practice I always hold a mandatory meeting with parents and players to discuss parent and player expectations for the upcoming season. As part of my speech I let the players and parents know that the umpires are doing their best but they will still miss calls that will hurt us and they will miss calls that help us. But under no circumstance are parents or players permitted to berate or abuse umpires.

In travel ball my penalty is that the player is suspended for the next tournament - even if it's the parent(s) of the player that are being abusive. There is no second warning. If it happens again the player is off the team. That may seem harsh, but I remind parents that their behavior is setting an example for their player.

In rec ball I can't cut a player, but I can sit him on the bench. Our organization is actually really good at disciplining parents. I've seen more than a few permanently banished from the ballpark.

As a coach, I've never become animated with an umpire. I've questioned calls and even lodged a protest or two, but never blown up at an umpire. I don't see the purpose. As a parent in the stands I've never lashed out at an umpire, either. Parents that do things like that tend to upset their team even more. Kids are great at letting it go. On my teams we teach the kids the phrase, "Next play!"

Over the years I think I've earned the respect of the umpires and while part of that is my demeanor, another big part is that I study the rule books every year be it USSSA, Top Gun, NFHS, Dixie, and local rules. And I will admit that my knowledge of the rule books has pissed off an opposing coach or two over the years as well

I have never berated an umpire but have heard many parents and coaches do. Its one thing to have a "conversation" over a call. But yelling and arguing has never solved any issues.

ILVBB thank you for your service and many of the points you made, I had never considered, but you are absolutely right! Your statements have opened my eyes. Thank you.

I was once tossed from a LL game. An arrogant umpire (who thought he knew the rules and made great calls) made two horrible calls. When he screwed up a ruling (called a runner out for not sliding when there wasn’t a play on him) I calmly walked out to explain there has to be a play for “must slide.” A pitcher running in front of the runner trying to score on a wild pitch doesn’t have anything to do with must slide.

The rule is really must avoid contact. In this case the pitcher created the contact by obstructing the runner. 

After not being able to convince the umpire he was wrong I stepped a little closer and spoke in a low tone. I explained I’m supposed to be a role model so I can’t say this out loud. “You really suck. The sad thing is you think you know what you’re doing.”

It turned out I was taking one for the team. The league president was in attendance to see the horrible calls. When other coaches heard what happened they told the president the guy does stink and he’s arrogant. He got as few games as possible the rest of the season and no playoff games. Our league did just fine with this guy never umpiring Majors games again.

I think what umpires need to be able to do is two things:

1. Know the rules

2. Don't have huge misses like calling a runner save who is out by 3 steps or call a strike on a pitch 10 inch outside or shoulder high.

Those things really shouldn't happen often to an ump and I can understand a coach being pissed by that.

On the other hand I feel coaches shouldn't argue if there is a bang bang play or a strike called on a pitch 2 inches wide or a ball width low or high. Those  things are hard to see and you need to accept them.

Dominik85 posted:

I think what umpires need to be able to do is two things:

1. Know the rules

2. Don't have huge misses like calling a runner save who is out by 3 steps or call a strike on a pitch 10 inch outside or shoulder high.

Those things really shouldn't happen often to an ump and I can understand a coach being pissed by that.

On the other hand I feel coaches shouldn't argue if there is a bang bang play or a strike called on a pitch 2 inches wide or a ball width low or high. Those  things are hard to see and you need to accept them.

Sorry, but that seemed harsh to me. Umpires are human too.

I’ve seen some crazy calls but never consistently through a whole game. A bad call sucks but again, they are human and their call is their call. Get over it and make it up in the next play. I truly believe in karma calls- if it was a bad call, the next close call will be in your favor so just move past it. You win some and you lose some- that’s life.

RJM posted:

I was once tossed from a LL game. An arrogant umpire (who thought he knew the rules and made great calls) made two horrible calls. When he screwed up a ruling (called a runner out for not sliding when there wasn’t a play on him) I calmly walked out to explain there has to be a play for “must slide.” A pitcher running in front of the runner trying to score on a wild pitch doesn’t have anything to do with must slide.

The rule is really must avoid contact. In this case the pitcher created the contact by obstructing the runner. 

 

There is no rule requiring a runner to slide in LL baseball.  The runner is out if they "do not slide or attempt to get around a fielder who has the ball and is waiting to make a tag".  But there is no "must slide" rule.  The only sliding rule is regarding headfirst slides, and players can only do that when returning to a base.  If they headfirst slide at any other time they are out.   

meads posted:

Dominik85 posted:

I think what umpires need to be able to do is two things:

1. Know the rules

2. Don't have huge misses like calling a runner save who is out by 3 steps or call a strike on a pitch 10 inch outside or shoulder high.

Those things really shouldn't happen often to an ump and I can understand a coach being pissed by that.

On the other hand I feel coaches shouldn't argue if there is a bang bang play or a strike called on a pitch 2 inches wide or a ball width low or high. Those  things are hard to see and you need to accept them.

Sorry, but that seemed harsh to me. Umpires are human too.

I’ve seen some crazy calls but never consistently through a whole game. A bad call sucks but again, they are human and their call is their call. Get over it and make it up in the next play. I truly believe in karma calls- if it was a bad call, the next close call will be in your favor so just move past it. You win some and you lose some- that’s life.

 

As an umpire I try my best at all times to call a fair game.  But mistakes are still made.  It's a general rule to avoid big misses.  I have been taught not to engage in arguments with coaches and to shutdown excessive/abusive "chatter" immediately, early in a game.  Judgement calls are not something a coach can appeal.  Balls/strikes, safe/out, fair/foul are not arguable. Only alleged rules violations can be appealed. When working alone, it is extremely difficult to also do the job of the base umpire from behind the plate.  I make it understood in the pregame conference that I won't tolerate any violations of the conduct rules and that I will enforce the penalties.  This usually helps keep the coaches under control.

Dominik85 posted:

 

2. Don't have huge misses like calling a runner save who is out by 3 steps or call a strike on a pitch 10 inch outside or shoulder high.

 

You mean like this call from a few nights ago?

https://twitter.com/lee42atkin.../1102803704736956417

Only been thrown out of one game in major LL level. Catcher standing in front of the plate with the ball in hand. Runner coming home from third never slowed down, lowered his shoulder, and leveled him. Runner was a much bigger kid. Catcher dropped the ball and was laid out over home plate. Umpire called the runner safe, because catcher dropped the ball. I knew what was going to happen. Told the assistant coach, that I thought I was going to be thrown out. Started out talking with a low tone, asking umpire what he saw, and the runner had to avoid contact because the catcher had the ball and there was a play at the plate. When he said, the catcher had to hold on to the ball no matter what, things escalated from there. By the time it was over, I was thrown from the game. (Nothing physical or bad language, would never do that in front of kids that age)

Was asked to attend the LL board meeting after that to discuss what happen. Thought they were going to suspend me for a few games. I was surprised to see the district umpire rep there. Turns out some parents turned in video of the incident, and the game umpire was indefinitely suspended due to player safety concerns. I guess it was not the first time something happen with that ump.

I agree umpires are human. I may question a call here or there. But when it comes to player safety as coaches we need to speak up.

Side note: I now umpire in the same district as time allows. The same district umpire rep is still there, and we have become good friends. I have found that if the rules and expectations are set at the plate meeting before the game with the head coaches things tend to run smooth most of the time. When the fans start to act up, normally all it takes is a look at the coach, and they take care of it. 

With parents using there cell phones to record every moment and call on the field, who it their right mind is going to umpire a game?

Even though HS baseball has rules against using video, it doesn't change the fact that people are going to judge performance based upon video.

Why use judgement when you have a video? Just another reason why parents and coaches complain.

Another reason why I don't want to umpire anymore.

Last night was one of the worst calls (timing) I have ever seen.  Bases loaded and four hitter hits a deep flyball to right center.  Both outfielders go for the ball and dive for it.  They slide into each other and roll around.  All the base runners take off and there is no call.  The hitter was rounding third and heading for home when the center fielder stands up with his glove held up.  The base umpire who is still standing at the mound calls him out.  The umpire never went out there to see if he even had a ball in his glove.  His answer was I have to assume he caught it if he shows me the glove.  Our coach took it.

I would have been ejected because you cannot assume anything.  If you do not see him physically catch the ball, he is safe.  It was the difference in the game which will probably result in the region championship.

PitchingFan posted:

Last night was one of the worst calls (timing) I have ever seen.  Bases loaded and four hitter hits a deep flyball to right center.  Both outfielders go for the ball and dive for it.  They slide into each other and roll around.  All the base runners take off and there is no call.  The hitter was rounding third and heading for home when the center fielder stands up with his glove held up.  The base umpire who is still standing at the mound calls him out.  The umpire never went out there to see if he even had a ball in his glove.  His answer was I have to assume he caught it if he shows me the glove.  Our coach took it.

I would have been ejected because you cannot assume anything.  If you do not see him physically catch the ball, he is safe.  It was the difference in the game which will probably result in the region championship.

Sounds like he did it right. BU is not allowed to go out from the middle in the two-umpire system. Sometimes that means you have to make a call based on the preponderance of the evidence. If he's got the ball in his glove on this, and there's nothing to indicate it touched the ground at some point, this is a catch.

You have to see the ball to know it is in the glove and there is always a timing issue.  You cannot wait that long to make a call.  He never saw the ball in the glove the player just held up the glove.  You have to know that a catch has been made to call an out.  What is even funnier is the second baseman brought the ball into the infield rather than the center fielder.  I have never seen a call take that long and as an umpire I was taught in college and minor leagues that you have to be proven there is a catch rather than proven there is a drop.  If there is doubt, it is a no catch.

PitchingFan posted:

You have to see the ball to know it is in the glove and there is always a timing issue.  You cannot wait that long to make a call.  He never saw the ball in the glove the player just held up the glove.  You have to know that a catch has been made to call an out.  What is even funnier is the second baseman brought the ball into the infield rather than the center fielder.  I have never seen a call take that long and as an umpire I was taught in college and minor leagues that you have to be proven there is a catch rather than proven there is a drop.  If there is doubt, it is a no catch.

Nothing you have said is accurate.

A. You take as long as you need to make a call. It doesn't matter how long this call takes. 

B. There is no such thing as having to prove there's a catch. You just have to umpire. 

So you will call someone out when you don't see the ball or the catch.  So your theory is you assume the catch even if you don't see it with your eyes.  Interesting.  Never heard that in any training. 

so you have no problem with it taking as long as a runner to run from home to third before making a call with no help.  Interesting also.  I think my college and pro assigners and evaluators would have a problem with that logic.  I understand if there is something that you are waiting on or asking for help but when you are standing at the mound and the players are rolling around in the outfield 300 feet away while a hitter is running the bases and rounds third you have taken way too long.  It is either a catch or no catch immediately by what you see. 

Hammer823 posted:

RJM posted:

I was once tossed from a LL game. An arrogant umpire (who thought he knew the rules and made great calls) made two horrible calls. When he screwed up a ruling (called a runner out for not sliding when there wasn’t a play on him) I calmly walked out to explain there has to be a play for “must slide.” A pitcher running in front of the runner trying to score on a wild pitch doesn’t have anything to do with must slide.

The rule is really must avoid contact. In this case the pitcher created the contact by obstructing the runner. 

 

There is no rule requiring a runner to slide in LL baseball.  The runner is out if they "do not slide or attempt to get around a fielder who has the ball and is waiting to make a tag".  But there is no "must slide" rule.  The only sliding rule is regarding headfirst slides, and players can only do that when returning to a base.  If they headfirst slide at any other time they are out.   

Like I stated in another paragraph it’s must avoid contact when there’s a play on him. To keep it simple for my players I told them they can’t truck the guy with the ball.

In this case the pitcher ran to the plate on a wild pitch and stood there as the runner crossed. He didn’t have the ball. There wasn’t a play. The pitcher created the collusion. But the details of the rules are irrelevant now given my son is now about to turn 26. The bad call and how I calmly handled it is the story.

The umpire became a LL lifer. I was told he never became even a decent umpire. But through the good ole boy seniority LL network he went in to do every level of the tournament including Williamsport.

PitchingFan posted:

So you will call someone out when you don't see the ball or the catch.  So your theory is you assume the catch even if you don't see it with your eyes.  Interesting.  Never heard that in any training. 

so you have no problem with it taking as long as a runner to run from home to third before making a call with no help.  Interesting also.  I think my college and pro assigners and evaluators would have a problem with that logic.  I understand if there is something that you are waiting on or asking for help but when you are standing at the mound and the players are rolling around in the outfield 300 feet away while a hitter is running the bases and rounds third you have taken way too long.  It is either a catch or no catch immediately by what you see. 

I think you, at a minimum, exaggerate your experience and training. Quite frankly, I think you're full of it.

No college or professional umpire would have mentioned that BU didn't go out to check the ball, because they would know that isn't an option in the two-umpire system. No umpire would ever complain about a call being too slow, because that isn't a problem. No umpire would ever--ever--claim that a catch/no catch is an immediate call, because it never is. In your example, it cannot be a catch until after the fielders stopped rolling--if you knew the catch rule, you'd know why.

ILVBB posted:

With parents using there cell phones to record every moment and call on the field, who it their right mind is going to umpire a game?

Even though HS baseball has rules against using video, it doesn't change the fact that people are going to judge performance based upon video.

Why use judgement when you have a video? Just another reason why parents and coaches complain.

Another reason why I don't want to umpire anymore.

Parents don’t understand the umpire doesn’t have video and as much time as needed to make the call. The umpire has to make a split second call. These calls get one side cheering and one side complaining.

As a coach I’ve never complained about these calls. As an umpire of a softball game I was followed to my car and threatened after a walk off was decided on a split second call. The same person threatened if he saw me away from the field he would beat my head in. When I saw him at the WaWa the next weekend I told him I would still be outside when he’s ready to leave. He didn’t even make eye contact. 

Our girls were ten at the time. Our boys were five years younger. I always was cordial to the guy and his wife. The guy never acknowledged me. The wife always said hello. Ten years later in the football stands the wife suggested to her husband he grow up and stop being an arsehole.

He and I had another issue when our boys were nine. In a baseball game he tried to force Jewish kids to bow their heads and pray to Jesus in the dugout before a rec game. I was already in the third base coaches box and witnessed the situation. I told the kids they didn’t have to. The reality is a rec coach can’t force any rec ball kids to pray to anything. He kicked them out of the dugout. He wasn’t coaching anymore after that day. 

He tossed a kid of a mother you don’t want to mess with. She told the board if the guy is in the dugout again she will have her newsreporter friend at the game with a camera. 

Hammer823 posted:

RJM posted:

I was once tossed from a LL game. An arrogant umpire (who thought he knew the rules and made great calls) made two horrible calls. When he screwed up a ruling (called a runner out for not sliding when there wasn’t a play on him) I calmly walked out to explain there has to be a play for “must slide.” A pitcher running in front of the runner trying to score on a wild pitch doesn’t have anything to do with must slide.

The rule is really must avoid contact. In this case the pitcher created the contact by obstructing the runner. 

 

There is no rule requiring a runner to slide in LL baseball.  The runner is out if they "do not slide or attempt to get around a fielder who has the ball and is waiting to make a tag".  But there is no "must slide" rule.  The only sliding rule is regarding headfirst slides, and players can only do that when returning to a base.  If they headfirst slide at any other time they are out.   

I don't know about LL rules, but in Dixie Youth Baseball there is a rule that players must slide at home plate if a play is being made. I've seen players called out for not sliding in this circumstance.

Coach Koz posted:

I don't know about LL rules, but in Dixie Youth Baseball there is a rule that players must slide at home plate if a play is being made. I've seen players called out for not sliding in this circumstance.

I am quoting directly from the rulebook for LL.  I did the District tournament last year here in my state and they made that clear in our pre game meetings.  I don't know Dixie rules.

Speaking of lack of umpires, my son's middle school game had only one umpire last night. The guy had a terrible strike zone, but at least he was consistent with it all night. But I will say that every time a ball was put in play he popped out from behind the plate quickly and moved as far as he could and tried to get the proper angle on the play. Heck, on a ground ball to second base he made it out near the mound to make the call. He could have "phoned it in" from behind the plate all night but instead he hustled play after play in a less than ideal situation.

Sorry but some of the comments are HARSH! No wonder why we are loosing umpires by the handfuls. I can't imagine how your kid acts out there on the field the way you say you react to bad calls.

Dominik85 posted:

I think what umpires need to be able to do is two things:

1. Know the rules

2. Don't have huge misses like calling a runner save who is out by 3 steps or call a strike on a pitch 10 inch outside or shoulder high.

Those things really shouldn't happen often to an ump and I can understand a coach being pissed by that.

On the other hand I feel coaches shouldn't argue if there is a bang bang play or a strike called on a pitch 2 inches wide or a ball width low or high. Those  things are hard to see and you need to accept them.

This is absolutely reasonable. 

Dominik85 posted:

I think what umpires need to be able to do is two things:

1. Know the rules

2. Don't have huge misses like calling a runner save who is out by 3 steps or call a strike on a pitch 10 inch outside or shoulder high.

Those things really shouldn't happen often to an ump and I can understand a coach being pissed by that.

On the other hand I feel coaches shouldn't argue if there is a bang bang play or a strike called on a pitch 2 inches wide or a ball width low or high. Those  things are hard to see and you need to accept them.

3. Hustle to be in position.