Why I don't pay for baseball

Nice post!  When you've been around here for awhile, you've seen most thread topics before.  This one seems unique and hope you get a lot of nice responses to these interesting thoughts.

that is a fantastic way of thinking! I'll be passing this on. Thanks!

Just printed it out to pass on, thanks for sharing!

Great post.  My parents spent thanksgiving holiday with us, it was a great time, and my dad, "Pop"( to my kids) and I had yet another discussion about this.   He can't believe how much time, effort, and money we have spent over the years on our kids sporting activities - three sons,   Football, Baseball, Hockey.    Admittedly we could be accused of going off the deep end to support our kids sports, and "Pop" has no problem calling me out on it.  LOL.    I've thought a lot about this-   and this post really aligns with my thinking- maybe it's a form of rationalization.  I'm ok with that.  If all that comes from all of this is supporting their dreams, keeping them out of trouble,  and hopefully learning some good life lessons along the way, it's all worth it! 

Dadof3 posted:

I can't take credit for this, but I thought this was pretty cool  Especially when I questioned sometimes why I pay what I do for lessons/equipment/etc..

 

 

 

Why I don't pay for Baseball....

The other night someone asked me " Why do you pay so much money for your son to play baseball?" Well I have a confession to make, I don't pay for baseball. Personally, I love baseball. I am excited to be able to watch my son play the sport that he loves.

So if I'm not paying for baseball then what am I paying for? I pay for the moments when my son becomes so tired he wants to quit but doesn't. I pay for those days when my son comes home from school and is "too tired" to go to practice but shows up anyway. I pay for my son to learn to work well with others and to be a good team mate. I pay for my son to deal with disappointment, when he doesn't get the position he's hoping for, but still has to work hard for the one he received. I pay for my son to make and accomplish goals. I pay for my son to learn that it takes hours and hours of hard work and practice to create something beautiful, and that success does not happen overnight. I pay for the opportunity that my son will have and to make life-long friendships.

I could go on but to be short, I don't pay for baseball, I pay for the opportunities that baseball provides my son to develop his attributes that will serve him well throughout his life and give him the opportunity to bless the lives of others. From what I have seen so far it is a great investment.

I am sure other parents get the same question "Why do you pay for dance?" "Why do you pay for soccer club?" "Why does your kid swim year round?"...... I just think it is important to realize what we are paying for.

+1

Great post!! You hit it on the head don't need additional comments. 

Something is wrong if you think you have to pay someone to teach your children values.  

real green posted:

Something is wrong if you think you have to pay someone to teach your children values.  

I'm pretty sure that your comment misses the entire point of the OPs post.  While you are correct, my interpretation was that he spends money on an endeavor that gives his son various experiences which, in turn, teaches or reinforces good values.

If your comment were taken literally, one could argue that "something is wrong if you think that you have to pay someone to teach your child 2nd grade arithmetic."

Meanwhile, millions of children go to private school.  Just sayin...

GoHeels posted:

real green posted:

Something is wrong if you think you have to pay someone to teach your children values.  

I'm pretty sure that your comment misses the entire point of the OPs post.  While you are correct, my interpretation was that he spends money on an endeavor that gives his son various experiences which, in turn, teaches or reinforces good values.

If your comment were taken literally, one could argue that "something is wrong if you think that you have to pay someone to teach your child 2nd grade arithmetic."

Meanwhile, millions of children go to private school.  Just sayin...

And millions more go to public school for free.  =-)  

Justifying the expense of club sports for there values???  

Why do you spend so much on sports?  Because it's fun and we can afford it!  That's it...  

Real Green he was just expressing to the individuals who ask him why he spent so much money on baseball. Btw everybody that spends a lot on sports can't always afford it but we sacrifice because we do enjoy the look on their faces when they hit a double, triple, homerun, make that great play in the outfield or by chance they get to make a dream of being in the MLB come true. 

real green posted:

GoHeels posted:

real green posted:

Something is wrong if you think you have to pay someone to teach your children values.  

I'm pretty sure that your comment misses the entire point of the OPs post.  While you are correct, my interpretation was that he spends money on an endeavor that gives his son various experiences which, in turn, teaches or reinforces good values.

If your comment were taken literally, one could argue that "something is wrong if you think that you have to pay someone to teach your child 2nd grade arithmetic."

Meanwhile, millions of children go to private school.  Just sayin...

And millions more go to public school for free.  =-)  

Justifying the expense of club sports for there values???  

Why do you spend so much on sports?  Because it's fun and we can afford it!  That's it...  

 

 

Don't know about the rest of you but I don't like spending money on it!  It sure isn't fun to cut that check.  But what is fun is watching my son improve, watching him grow as he deals with adversity, he gets to learn how to make new friends, how to deal with the different types of coaches and getting to see different level of competition.  Keep in mind he is only 11 going on 12 (in april), but exposing him to some of this now will (hopefully) help him grow into the young man I am trying to turn him into.  That and everything in the original post is why I spend my hard earned money on it.

I am caught up in it too!  No doubt, and it's not easy for me to cut the checks.  In my opinion, it's as much about not saying no to my kids as anything else.  It's healthy (more times than not).  They want to do it because it's cool.  Yes, it's expensive but we hate to tell our kids no because of cost.  We should say no we can't afford it.  There are plenty of other less expensive options to meet their needs and entertainment.  No one wants to be that parent, "hey Mr. Smith is Johnny trying out for XYZ travel team, he has a great arm and could be a solid pitcher...  No, it's just not in our budget this year."  

So instead, we under-fund this, charge that, make it up with extra time at work, claim we can't afford life without two income earners, etc etc because we didn't want to say no (disappoint) to our kids.  

We justify it with,

"So if I'm not paying for baseball then what am I paying for? I pay for the moments when my son becomes so tired he wants to quit but doesn't. I pay for those days when my son comes home from school and is "too tired" to go to practice but shows up anyway. I pay for my son to learn to work well with others and to be a good team mate. I pay for my son to deal with disappointment, when he doesn't get the position he's hoping for, but still has to work hard for the one he received. I pay for my son to make and accomplish goals. I pay for my son to learn that it takes hours and hours of hard work and practice to create something beautiful, and that success does not happen overnight. I pay for the opportunity that my son will have and to make life-long friendships.

I could go on but to be short, I don't pay for baseball, I pay for the opportunities that baseball provides my son to develop his attributes that will serve him well throughout his life and give him the opportunity to bless the lives of others. From what I have seen so far it is a great investment."

Sure there is a rewarding return but the upfront cost of time and money is very high for this investment.    

I have a little different take on this I think. I coached my son's travel team for a few years and got to coach some outstanding kids. The biggest surprise for me was with the parents. Actually the difference in expectations from the parents in regards to the program, coaches and kids in contrast to the parents of rec league kids.

I had coached my older son some years back but due to his lack of athleticism we stayed local in a small town and did only rec league ball. The kids played only a handful of games and even though we kept score and there were winners and losers, the kids all had fun. None of the kids would have made a travel team of any caliber. Having said that, the parents of the rec league kids were awful. They expected their kid to hit a dinger every at bat, would scream at the umpire every pitch etc. Every game was chaos, and the parents would gripe that there son or daughter wasn't getting any better even though they paid their 30 bucks! Keep in mind the league only allowed one practice a week for 2 weeks prior to the "season" and no practices during the season.

My youngest son showed some great athleticism very early in life. He was playing on a semi-travel 12U team at the age of nine. My wife and I decided to take the plunge when he was 10 and put him on a real travel team of kids his age. The difference was amazing. I was initially shocked when during the tryout we got the details from the academy and read the cost. I could not believe anyone would pay $1500 bucks for their kid to play baseball. After the tryout the coaches and I talked and we decided that we would try it for one year. That was the best decision ever. I was asked to help with the team and was very apprehensive. The first year of travel ball was one I will never forget and neither will my wife or son. The parents were demanding, but they demanded that the coaches hold their son accountable to goals, push him to get better, give him workouts to do between practices, and not accept a poor attitude.

I guess my point is that travel ball is not for everyone. It is expensive and time consuming but if you find the right organization it is well worth it. Most of the parents of the kids on the travel team eventually have to come to terms with the fact that there son will not play high level baseball in college, some will not even play high school ball. But I bet  most families would do it all over again in a second. I know I would. The price you pay to make memories that last a lifetime cannot be quantified by a dollar amount.  The lessons that parents, and the kids learn along that journey cannot be replaced by anything else in my opinion. Personally I have learned humility, patience and am grateful to the other parents and coaches for helping my son become a young man. If you are only paying for baseball you are going to be disappointed. I started out paying for baseball 6 years ago and found out I wasn't paying for baseball at all, I was paying for a lifetime of memories that my family will share forever. Corny yes but true.

No doubt there are various reasons for doing so or not doing so.  If my son didn't have that talent he has, I would not have spent near as much as I had (which, BTW, isn't anywhere near what many families do).   Since he was/is a very talented player at a level that is very competitive and since Baseball is a young man's game I wanted to provide the best opportunity for what Baseball might offer.  And it also provided lots of fun and entertainment that the whole family enjoyed as well.  In my son's case it really paid off getting him into a college (his dream school) we couldn't afford or qualify to enter otherwise and the amount spent on baseball turned out to produce a huge return in our case.  So this was in addition to those things mentioned in the OP, which baseball reinforced and augmented those things we were trying to teach our son.

If a family can not afford and/or justify such spending, then DON'T DO IT.

real green posted:

GoHeels posted:

real green posted:

Something is wrong if you think you have to pay someone to teach your children values.  

I'm pretty sure that your comment misses the entire point of the OPs post.  While you are correct, my interpretation was that he spends money on an endeavor that gives his son various experiences which, in turn, teaches or reinforces good values.

If your comment were taken literally, one could argue that "something is wrong if you think that you have to pay someone to teach your child 2nd grade arithmetic."

Meanwhile, millions of children go to private school.  Just sayin...

And millions more go to public school for free.  =-)  

Justifying the expense of club sports for there values???  

Why do you spend so much on sports?  Because it's fun and we can afford it!  That's it...  

 

 

-1 (We really have to install a thumbs down button)

Short of military school I can't think of a better way for my son to live the values I try to teach him.  Baseball has taught him from a young age about working for what you want and no one will hand it to you, you have to truly work for it.  The schools don't seem to teach that anymore, everyone can have a retest, or turn in work late, or a slew of other things to make sure that kid passes.  Having my core values backed up, away from home, about working for what you want and appreciating what you get, is priceless to me.

My son came home from high school tryouts and said "There are very few of us throwing ourselves into walls or diving into the dirt to get the out.  Most kids are waiting for the ball to drop, or playing it safe, I don't get it."  I am SOOO happy he doesn't get it.

Great OP and threads. My wife and I spent a LOT of money over the years on baseball, travel, hotels/food, gear (our 2017 is a catcher), lessons, camps, etc. In the end, my son decided to take a pass on a top D3 program (it was all about size) to go to a great in-state college (my Alma Mater, Virginia Tech). Sure, he'll probably try to play on one of their club teams, but even if he doesn't that's totally fine. A good friend whose son is doing well at a different great D3 program in Virginia thinks we "quit at the finish line" and asked why'd we spend so much money to not play?

Because the chips flew and my son is not going to play college baseball (beyond club, if that). The OP describes so well how he learned to push himself, strive to get better, be a leader on the field and in the dugout, honor his commitments, anf so on. And I had years of road time with my son, watching him play, fail, and succeed. Since we could afford it all, I find it money very well spent. Or perhaps, it was more like I did not pay for baseball afterall... I get it.

Batty67 posted:

Great OP and threads. My wife and I spent a LOT of money over the years on baseball, travel, hotels/food, gear (our 2017 is a catcher), lessons, camps, etc. In the end, my son decided to take a pass on a top D3 program (it was all about size) to go to a great in-state college (my Alma Mater, Virginia Tech). Sure, he'll probably try to play on one of their club teams, but even if he doesn't that's totally fine. A good friend whose son is doing well at a different great D3 program in Virginia thinks we "quite at the finish line" and asked why'd we spend so much money to not play?

Because the chips flew and my son is not going to play college baseball (beyond club, if that). The OP describes so well how he learned to push himself, strive to get better, be a leader on the field and in the dugout, honor his commitments, anf so on. And I had years of road time with my son, watching him play, fail, and succeed. Since we could afford it all, I find it money very well spent. Or perhaps, it was more like I did not pay for baseball afterall... I get it.

This is well said, I always felt it had everything to do with the baseball and virtually nothing to do with the baseball...it was quality time in the car, cage time during the week, breakfast at the dinner after winter workouts with a teenager who doesn't drive yet but certainly doesn't want to be seen in public with his dad...it was friends and experiences, it was competitive highs and disappointing realities of talent...it was life spent with the same but totally different goals.

In my family the boy wanted to be a player, the dad wanted to support the growth of a young man who will stand on his own 2 feet. As we are about to enter his last year of HS baseball I feel both missions were accomplished and I have very few regrets. I am doing it all over again with a younger one and seeing similar results.

IMO worth every dollar and minute spent.

If a family can not afford and/or justify such spending, then DON'T DO IT.

I feel terrible admitting this, but I used to (and to a large degree still do) have this opinion as well. The crazy thing about paying to play travel baseball, private lessons with trainers and coaches and on top of that some pay private school tuition is the expense.

Just heard from my better half that one of our friends told her she spends $2,500 A MONTH between private school, travel ball dues, privates lessons for hitting and pitching, and for private tutors because her son doesn't do the schoolwork and doesn't pay attention in school. Can the family afford it? Kind of, that's another story. Should they be paying it? That's up to them to decide, not me. Is he any better off for spending all that money? He's a good player whose grades will keep him from being a player in college. He performs statistically slightly lower than my son does, without all the lessons and private school (which by the way generates about the same average SAT/ACT scores as our local public schools do). In my opinion, money is not well spent. Put in perspective, this family is paying more than it would cost to send the kid to a state college, with housing and meal plan, every year for baseball. I would never do that, because it makes no sense to me, but it's their money. They are "chasing the dream" and having a great time along the way.

I know other families who definitely cannot afford it and spend probably $500 a month on their kid (actually, he's not even their kid, he's a cousin or something) and the kid had immense talent as a 10-13U player. Everyone seems to have caught up/surpassed him at this point.

My son's travel program, at least at the HS level, does not even collect monthly dues. You sign on for summer or fall, pay the very reasonable fee that includes all tournaments, a practice and a hitting session every week during the summer/fall (we don't travel to Georgia for PG events though), and we have players committing to very good D1 programs out of this team. If you want to do a PG event in Georgia, the team has no problem helping get you on another squad that is going, they know it's an important recruiting trip.

So I guess my point is you don't have to pay a fortune to have this experience, but some choose to.

I wish they had closed the thread after the OP.  Unfortunately, the discussion has now morphed into a highlight reel of the crazies.  Please don't lose sight of the OP - it is saying that incorporating baseball into a kid's life has brought great benefit to the kid and the family.  To some $1,500 may be a small fortune for a season and they would question why one would spend that much - to others $1,500 is only a fraction of what they pay.  The OP did not quote any figure, so let's assume it is on the cheap side to begin with.

I wanted my kid to be able to hang out with friends outside of our house so we signed him up for t-ball.  He enjoyed it so we regularly signed him up for park ball.  He kept getting a little better so we moved to another park hoping he would get a shot a high school ball.  Kept getting better so we inched up again.  He is a varsity athlete at a huge high school.  I understand athletics (for the most part) and am thrilled with his ability to compete and win in high school and gain a level of self confidence that I am not sure he would have developed outside of sports (glad he is not a video game champion though he has tried at times).  Baseball was something of a focus for the family that, perhaps, came easy.  I am sure there are other avenues we could have chosen to take, but in today's complex society I am glad we had something straightforward that would help in the maturation of my son.  I was not going to teach him how to fix cars (although we did visit our first junkyard this past weekend) or how to frame a house, but I was able to tag along on his baseball journey and hopefully he still has a few years left to enjoy.  

There are some older threads that do a good job hashing out relative costs and benefits or various baseball programs.  Please allow this thread to celebrate the journey, albeit with some monetary cost involved.

Nice OP.  Sports, and in particular baseball, have taught my sons a lot: being a team player, being accountable, learning to be prepared, developing work ethic, how preparation pays off, picking up another team member, learning to listen, opportunities to lead, learning most things don't come easy, you have to take care of your body, and it kept them away from trouble.   Their baseball exposure and commitments have helped them to be responsible, good citizens, and taught thenm the importance of being a good teammate and how to get along with people. They seem to be applying what they've learned from baseball in to their daily lives - school, work, and relationships. Baseball prepared them well.

Our family's support of baseball was because my boys loved it and by default, it became a family activity to go to the games, take them to the off season and season practices, and all the off season workouts.  If players have capability, and the desire to advance beyond HS, parents need to be involved and commited to the plan.  I always talked to my wife about what the boys were getting out of their sports, she didn't get it early on, she was from a piano playing family, but she eventually learned what I was talking about.  

We've been fortunate, affording all the baseball hasn't been an issue, but, we don't cut checks because we can cut checks.  I scouted out the programs before we signed our sons up.  The questions: who are the coaches and trainers teaching, and working my kid out. It took effort to get to know the coaches; it was a balancing act of not creating bad optics of being "that parent".  We wanted to know who are the people spending all this time with our kids?  Our due diligence into the program created awareness and trust with us and the coaches.  Coaches respected our questions and we maintained our distance to let them do their jobs.  

Over the years my wife and I really enjoyed the time watching the boys develop into solid baseball players and solid young men.  All the downtime conversations driving to the games and long distance tourneys.  I especially liked the conversations when I was able to stop talking about baseball and found other topics!  Over time my boys picked up on that and our relationships evolved. 

2016 son rec'd a top D1 offer and still chose to go to college and be a student.  He loved what baseball did for him, but he was ready to do other things.  2018 has a different dream.  Baseball has been terrific for my boys and my family. 

Now that my son is far removed from the game, played in college and a quick stint in the minor leagues we have so many awesome memories and friends from little league thru pro ball. 

My son demonstrates all the lessons learned and the discipline in his life today that he did while playing. 

His current roomates are one young man he played with since he was five, the other a hs team mate, he has remained good friends with many of his college team mates and a few from pro ball. 

So many wonderful memories and a few not so wonderful but the good outweighs the rest by far.

The baseball journey was fun from t ball to pro ball . I dnt know exactly what we spent but it was worth every penny. 

My son had very high goals and we let him pursue them and as a by product graduated from a great college and is doing very well. 

Spend what you want, what you can afford to, and enjoy the journey and not just stress about the destination as you never know what may happen. 

I think many parents get so caught up in the end result(I am guilty of that at times)that if I could give any advice, smell the grass, the smell of a new glove, the excitement of a new bat, hotel rooms with your  boy, the trips and meals together, the baseball trips to mlb stadiums. Every little  bit of time with your son. We have a wonderful relationship with our son and I cherish all the memories . 

I think for us our son pathed tbe way for what we offered him as he drove the desire  by his work ethic and love of the game  His williness to push himself at every level to be the best he could be. I dnt think We could of or wanted to push him. 

I believe it has to be their dream, their desire. 

Sports has given our family so much. At present that sport in particular is baseball. In the past it has been football, basketball and volleyball with his siblings. All of these activities have a cost associated. But the benefits so outway the costs. All of his siblings were college scholarship athletes.  The 2018 baseball player is the youngest and benefits from the lessons we learned with the others. The biggest lesson is to try and slow down this time and enjoy each step along the journey. Each day . Each event. Every showcase and tourney.

We spend more time together with our son, than any other non baseball playing parents I know. Spring ,summer and fall games. Tournaments all weekend. Showcases and camps. Cage time and practice outside of school team. Weightraining and performance training. And all of that drive time  in between. Cant tell you how much I enjoy it. Knowing he enjoys it more makes it easier to do. We talk more than anything. I KNOW him because I know how to listen to him. Some of the best conversations I have all day are with him. 

We have many baseball parents for friends just like we had football parents for friends and volleyball parents for friends. We go on vacation with our baseball parent friends. 19 out of 20 of our sons friends have parents that we know.  Very difficult to say as parents of a high school boy, when you live in a city of millions.

Baseball is expensive but it is one of the few things that are worth what they cost. When an event that takes place is deemed to not be worth the cost, we decline to participate. I dont think baseball  has taught him life lessons other than a few sportsmanship lessons. We teach him as parents  as we have his entire life. We get to watch how he acts and reacts to different situations. Both bad and good. We have seen him interact with players in the D.R. who were poor and without shoes and gloves to play baseball. I watched him volunteerily give away his batting gloves, after a game, and extra mitts and bats to those players just to see their faces light up. The joy he showed when they exchanged shirts with teams who had nothing else to give.  

Writing checks sucks. Each year it seems that baseball costs more than the previous year. I would love to buy other things with that money for me and my wife. Vacation home, sports car, larger house, art  or maybe jewelry. For now, we will settle for a  vacation at the WWBA championship  tourney in the summer, we rent a mustang at the airport, the boy sleeps in his own hotel bed,  we take plenty of pictures and videos and we hope that his team wins the best jewelry...the championship trophy.

Somehow I missed this earlier.  What a great way to look at things.

When our kids were younger we couldn't afford to do everything.  I would find time to teach them how to play and how to act.  If time is really money, I spent a lot on those kids.

Now, many years later, the world of amateur baseball has changed.  For some it can get expensive.  Sure there are many good things that baseball teaches that are helpful in other ways.  It can be very educational in many important ways.  I suppose everyone understands that part.

However, I have noticed something else that often happens in amateur baseball.  Things like building friendships with other families that have similar interests.  Families helping each other and having fun spending time together.  I can now see why some call their baseball trips vacations. They are having more fun than most taking a normal vacation.

I know there can be an ugly side as well.  On most every team, their will be the parent that just doesn't get it.  They are too busy bitching about others on the team or the coaches that they never enjoy what is going on.  In most cases their son ends up thinking the way they do.  They are so self centered and single minded that all they do is set a bad example.  Sometimes they embarrass their own kid.  They never have any fun and neither does anyone that is around them.  We see way too many of these types who think they have spent their money and that gives them the right to be an Ahole.  We have even seen some that actually get in fights in the parking lot.  Ain't that a lot of fun and what an example for the kids that just want to play a game they enjoy.  We sometimes have to call the police and it is always because of the adults.

I wish every young kid could play baseball.  I wish money had nothing to do with that.  I wish every parent understood their role.  If that could somehow happen baseball might actually help make this a better world. I really believe that baseball can help produce better people.  Unfortunately, many don't understand that part and maybe they have no interest in their kids becoming better people. As with most everything, there is the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly!

Once again, great OP and other comments.  

PGStaff posted:

 

I wish every young kid could play baseball.  I wish money had nothing to do with that.  I wish every parent understood their role.  If that could somehow happen baseball might actually help make this a better world. I really believe that baseball can help produce better people.  Unfortunately, many don't understand that part and maybe they have no interest in their kids becoming better people. As with most everything, there is the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly!

Once again, great OP and other comments.  

Obviously, I am taking a beating on a baseball forum arguing the other side.  My point is it has nothing to do with baseball.  If it was baseball every player on the back end would come out a better person and that is just not the case.  PGStaff states I wish every kid could play baseball.  There are 1000's of activities for youth that offer all the same side effects.  Community, memories, success, failures, physical fitness, etc....  And as PG states, I wish every parent understood their role.  It takes good role models to raise good kids.  Keep kids involved in activities and understand your role as a parent.  Role models can be coaches, parents, teachers, scout leaders, etc....  

We have good friends that refused to pay and participate in travel ball with his three kids.  They played in every rec league sport available and their kids are all good athletes.  All of his kids have ended up as HS varsity athletes with opportunities to play sports into college.  They also all play an instrument at a high level.  4.0 plus students.  Accomplished in individual sports such as skiing, and cycling.  Accomplished backpackers.  Active in their community and church.  

So when he asks me why do you pay so much for baseball? and I respond with I don't pay for baseball.

I'm not paying for baseball then what am I paying for? I pay for the moments when my son becomes so tired he wants to quit but doesn't. I pay for those days when my son comes home from school and is "too tired" to go to practice but shows up anyway. I pay for my son to learn to work well with others and to be a good team mate. I pay for my son to deal with disappointment, when he doesn't get the position he's hoping for, but still has to work hard for the one he received. I pay for my son to make and accomplish goals. I pay for my son to learn that it takes hours and hours of hard work and practice to create something beautiful, and that success does not happen overnight. I pay for the opportunity that my son will have and to make life-long friendships.

I could go on but to be short, I don't pay for baseball, I pay for the opportunities that baseball provides my son to develop his attributes that will serve him well throughout his life and give him the opportunity to bless the lives of others. From what I have seen so far it is a great investment.

He has to have a bit of a chuckle!  Don't you think?

I have to admit there are times I feel we got unbalanced to baseball.  Way to baseball heavy at the cost of other opportunities.  For my son, the adults in his life have made baseball a priority.  Not my son.  It's a reflection of us much more than him.  We, the adults, created it and allow it.  No doubt for years now, if you were to ask him, "Johnny would you like to go ride quads in the desert this weekend or go play in a tournament?"  He would pick baseball.  

I would equate it to him asking for ice cream at every meal.  There is a point where to much is to much.  

I am not naïve, I know there are other sides to everything.

My son is the one who created the baseball parent - not the other way around.  At 8 years old, he told me someone wanted him to be on a travel team and I told him that I didn't know if I had the time for it.  He was relentless and persistent and we finally gave in.  Sometimes kids know more than their parents.  It was one of the greatest blessings that ever happened to our family.  Many of our friends came from baseball and PG is exactly right about that. 

My son's love of the game and ability, fueled my passion for it.  I know there are bad apples out there who push their kids and talk trash about their coaches.  After being a member here for so many years, I suspect most of our members are like me - their kids are the one's who started the dream and they are more than happy to ride along as far as it will take them.  

real green posted:

PGStaff posted:

 

I wish every young kid could play baseball.  I wish money had nothing to do with that.  I wish every parent understood their role.  If that could somehow happen baseball might actually help make this a better world. I really believe that baseball can help produce better people.  Unfortunately, many don't understand that part and maybe they have no interest in their kids becoming better people. As with most everything, there is the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly!

Once again, great OP and other comments.  

Obviously, I am taking a beating on a baseball forum arguing the other side.  My point is it has nothing to do with baseball.  If it was baseball every player on the back end would come out a better person and that is just not the case.  PGStaff states I wish every kid could play baseball.  There are 1000's of activities for youth that offer all the same side effects.  Community, memories, success, failures, physical fitness, etc....  And as PG states, I wish every parent understood their role.  It takes good role models to raise good kids.  Keep kids involved in activities and understand your role as a parent.  Role models can be coaches, parents, teachers, scout leaders, etc....  

We have good friends that refused to pay and participate in travel ball with his three kids.  They played in every rec league sport available and their kids are all good athletes.  All of his kids have ended up as HS varsity athletes with opportunities to play sports into college.  They also all play an instrument at a high level.  4.0 plus students.  Accomplished in individual sports such as skiing, and cycling.  Accomplished backpackers.  Active in their community and church.  

So when he asks me why do you pay so much for baseball? and I respond with I don't pay for baseball.

I'm not paying for baseball then what am I paying for? I pay for the moments when my son becomes so tired he wants to quit but doesn't. I pay for those days when my son comes home from school and is "too tired" to go to practice but shows up anyway. I pay for my son to learn to work well with others and to be a good team mate. I pay for my son to deal with disappointment, when he doesn't get the position he's hoping for, but still has to work hard for the one he received. I pay for my son to make and accomplish goals. I pay for my son to learn that it takes hours and hours of hard work and practice to create something beautiful, and that success does not happen overnight. I pay for the opportunity that my son will have and to make life-long friendships.

I could go on but to be short, I don't pay for baseball, I pay for the opportunities that baseball provides my son to develop his attributes that will serve him well throughout his life and give him the opportunity to bless the lives of others. From what I have seen so far it is a great investment.

He has to have a bit of a chuckle!  Don't you think?

I have to admit there are times I feel we got unbalanced to baseball.  Way to baseball heavy at the cost of other opportunities.  For my son, the adults in his life have made baseball a priority.  Not my son.  It's a reflection of us much more than him.  We, the adults, created it and allow it.  No doubt for years now, if you were to ask him, "Johnny would you like to go ride quads in the desert this weekend or go play in a tournament?"  He would pick baseball.  

I would equate it to him asking for ice cream at every meal.  There is a point where to much is to much.  

 

Real Green - I get both sides of the argument but I think that every situation is different. I remember asking my son before every sports season - "are you sure that you want to play ________ before I sign you up?" After about three years of that, he finally asked - "why do you keep asking me that every year" My response - "Just want to make sure that you want to play for you and not because you think I want you to."

My son loves the game because he loves it, not because I do. We'll make it as much of a priority as he does but it's not my priority. I refuse to make him do anything sports related but will support him in any way that I can. Financially, we do what makes sense because we have to. 

hshuler posted:

real green posted:

PGStaff posted:

 

I wish every young kid could play baseball.  I wish money had nothing to do with that.  I wish every parent understood their role.  If that could somehow happen baseball might actually help make this a better world. I really believe that baseball can help produce better people.  Unfortunately, many don't understand that part and maybe they have no interest in their kids becoming better people. As with most everything, there is the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly!

Once again, great OP and other comments.  

Obviously, I am taking a beating on a baseball forum arguing the other side.  My point is it has nothing to do with baseball.  If it was baseball every player on the back end would come out a better person and that is just not the case.  PGStaff states I wish every kid could play baseball.  There are 1000's of activities for youth that offer all the same side effects.  Community, memories, success, failures, physical fitness, etc....  And as PG states, I wish every parent understood their role.  It takes good role models to raise good kids.  Keep kids involved in activities and understand your role as a parent.  Role models can be coaches, parents, teachers, scout leaders, etc....  

We have good friends that refused to pay and participate in travel ball with his three kids.  They played in every rec league sport available and their kids are all good athletes.  All of his kids have ended up as HS varsity athletes with opportunities to play sports into college.  They also all play an instrument at a high level.  4.0 plus students.  Accomplished in individual sports such as skiing, and cycling.  Accomplished backpackers.  Active in their community and church.  

So when he asks me why do you pay so much for baseball? and I respond with I don't pay for baseball.

I'm not paying for baseball then what am I paying for? I pay for the moments when my son becomes so tired he wants to quit but doesn't. I pay for those days when my son comes home from school and is "too tired" to go to practice but shows up anyway. I pay for my son to learn to work well with others and to be a good team mate. I pay for my son to deal with disappointment, when he doesn't get the position he's hoping for, but still has to work hard for the one he received. I pay for my son to make and accomplish goals. I pay for my son to learn that it takes hours and hours of hard work and practice to create something beautiful, and that success does not happen overnight. I pay for the opportunity that my son will have and to make life-long friendships.

I could go on but to be short, I don't pay for baseball, I pay for the opportunities that baseball provides my son to develop his attributes that will serve him well throughout his life and give him the opportunity to bless the lives of others. From what I have seen so far it is a great investment.

He has to have a bit of a chuckle!  Don't you think?

I have to admit there are times I feel we got unbalanced to baseball.  Way to baseball heavy at the cost of other opportunities.  For my son, the adults in his life have made baseball a priority.  Not my son.  It's a reflection of us much more than him.  We, the adults, created it and allow it.  No doubt for years now, if you were to ask him, "Johnny would you like to go ride quads in the desert this weekend or go play in a tournament?"  He would pick baseball.  

I would equate it to him asking for ice cream at every meal.  There is a point where to much is to much.  

 

Real Green - I get both sides of the argument but I think that every situation is different. I remember asking my son before every sports season - "are you sure that you want to play ________ before I sign you up?" After about three years of that, he finally asked - "why do you keep asking me that every year" My response - "Just want to make sure that you want to play for you and not because you think I want you to."

My son loves the game because he loves it, not because I do. We'll make it as much of a priority as he does but it's not my priority. I refuse to make him do anything sports related but will support him in any way that I can. Financially, we do what makes sense because we have to. 

Just last night we were looking over photos.  My wife and I had a chuckle.  For my sons THREE year old B-day party, he received catcher glove, mask, chest protector, and shin guards.  A pitching machine, baseball bat and balls.  Giants T-shirt and hat.  As a two year old, he was happy to sit and watch a game in my lap on TV.

In reflection, to think we had no influence on his passion for baseball seems a bit silly.  Also let me be clear we have had some great times in our baseball community.  It is a wonderful ride, but it's our ride not just his (which is a problem in opinion).  Things like his baseball tournaments became our family vacations.  As far as the example of our friends, his kids sports are his kids sports.  They come to games and support the team.

real green posted:

...

We have good friends that refused to pay and participate in travel ball with his three kids.  They played in every rec league sport available and their kids are all good athletes.  All of his kids have ended up as HS varsity athletes with opportunities to play sports into college.  They also all play an instrument at a high level.  4.0 plus students.  Accomplished in individual sports such as skiing, and cycling.  Accomplished backpackers.  Active in their community and church.  

So when he asks me why do you pay so much for baseball? and I respond with I don't pay for baseball....

 

He has to have a bit of a chuckle!  Don't you think?

 

 

Real Green, there is a great deal of merit to your point.  But there is also irony in your "friend" scenario.  Their kids play an instrument at a high level, ski, cycle, backpack and are active in their church.  All of those activities typically have fairly high costs associated with them (lessons, equipment, travel expenses, steep time requirements, tithe, etc.) but the associated experiences and life lessons that normally accompany them are considered well worth the investment.  This is exactly what OP is saying.  So, no, I don't think your friends would necessarily chuckle.  They may very well be able to relate.

Now, ice cream every meal, too much is too much...  agreed.  I am also a big proponent of balance.  

ClevelandDad posted:

I am not naïve, I know there are other sides to everything.

My son is the one who created the baseball parent - not the other way around.  At 8 years old, he told me someone wanted him to be on a travel team and I told him that I didn't know if I had the time for it.  He was relentless and persistent and we finally gave in.  Sometimes kids know more than their parents.  It was one of the greatest blessings that ever happened to our family.  Many of our friends came from baseball and PG is exactly right about that. 

My son's love of the game and ability, fueled my passion for it.  I know there are bad apples out there who push their kids and talk trash about their coaches.  After being a member here for so many years, I suspect most of our members are like me - their kids are the one's who started the dream and they are more than happy to ride along as far as it will take them.  

Same here! Two years of nonstop pestering about playing travel baseball (in addition to little league). We finally gave in at 11U.

cabbagedad posted:

real green posted:

...

We have good friends that refused to pay and participate in travel ball with his three kids.  They played in every rec league sport available and their kids are all good athletes.  All of his kids have ended up as HS varsity athletes with opportunities to play sports into college.  They also all play an instrument at a high level.  4.0 plus students.  Accomplished in individual sports such as skiing, and cycling.  Accomplished backpackers.  Active in their community and church.  

So when he asks me why do you pay so much for baseball? and I respond with I don't pay for baseball....

 

He has to have a bit of a chuckle!  Don't you think?

 

 

Real Green, there is a great deal of merit to your point.  But there is also irony in your "friend" scenario.  Their kids play an instrument at a high level, ski, cycle, backpack and are active in their church.  All of those activities typically have fairly high costs associated with them (lessons, equipment, travel expenses, steep time requirements, tithe, etc.) but the associated experiences and life lessons that normally accompany them are considered well worth the investment.  This is exactly what OP is saying.  So, no, I don't think your friends would necessarily chuckle.  They may very well be able to relate.

Now, ice cream every meal, too much is too much...  agreed.  I am also a big proponent of balance.  

Thanks Cabbage!  Balance is key AND in my opinion letting the child have his "own" time.  While my friends family definitely has cost there is separation of "family" activities.  When a kids baseball becomes the families event I think it is overboard and may not be the best thing.  My younger daughter is involved in the arts.  It is completely hers.  We support her but it is not apart of the families circle of friends, it's not our families entertainment, if she chose not to participate next year, it would have zero impact on our life.  Now my son, when he is done with baseball there will be a void in our families life and his.  While my son moves through his HS career, and we as his parents are trying to provide him more personal "baseball" space, it's becoming more apparent that we were out of balance through youth baseball.  It was a great experience for us all but we will definitely give our youngest son much more space and insure his level of involvement is age appropriate.  

What is this?  The thread here is turning awkward..

I'm sensing we need a safe place to talk about our opinions and experiences with baseball.  

Real Green, your questions have been answered with sincerity, with suggestions... 

Great OP.   Using ball to teach your children about the quality of life, family, etc......but RG makes some points.  It is fun, we enjoy it, and can afford it.   There are also 1000s of ways to do this.   BTW, if you think a ball and glove make for an expensive youth sport, try living in the equine world like we do.  Here are some life lessons being taught in the equine arena that go along with this thread.

A Father's Explanation of Why He Had Horses for His Children

My daughter turned sixteen years old today; which is a milestone for most people. Besides looking at baby photos and childhood trinkets with her, I took time to reflect on the young woman my daughter had become and the choices she would face in the future.

As I looked at her I could see the athlete she was, and determined woman she would soon be. I started thinking about some of the girls we knew in our town who were already pregnant, pierced in several places, hair every color under the sun, drop outs, drug addicts and on the fast track to no-where, seeking surface identities because they had no inner self esteem. The parents of these same girls have asked me why I "waste" the money on horses so my daughter can ride. I'm told she will grow out of it, lose interest, discover boys and all kinds of things that try to pin the current generation' s "slacker" label on my child. I don't think it will happen, I think she will love and have horses all her life.

Because my daughter grew up with horses she has compassion. She knows that we must take special care of the very young and the very old. We must make sure those without voices to speak of their pain are still cared for.

Because my daughter grew up with horses she learned responsibility for others than herself. She learned that regardless of the weather you must still care for those you have the stewardship of. There are no "days off" just because you don't feel like being a horse owner that day. She learned that for every hour of fun you have there are days of hard slogging work you must do first.

Because my daughter grew up with horses she learned not to be afraid of getting dirty and that appearances don't matter to most of the breathing things in the world we live in. Horses do not care about designer clothes, jewelry, pretty hairdos or anything else we put on our bodies to try to impress others. What a horse cares about are your abilities to work within his natural world, he doesn't care if you're wearing $80.00 jeans while you do it.

Because my daughter grew up with horses she understands the value of money. Every dollar can be translated into bales of hay, bags of feed or farrier visits. Purchasing non-necessities during lean times can mean the difference between feed and good care, or neglect and starvation. She has learned to judge the level of her care against the care she sees provided by others and to make sure her standards never lower, and only increase as her knowledge grows.

Because my daughter grew up with horses she has learned to learn on her own. She has had teachers that cannot speak, nor write, nor communicate beyond body language and reactions. She has had to learn to "read" her surroundings for both safe and unsafe objects, to look for hazards where others might only see a pretty meadow. She has learned to judge people as she judges horses. She looks beyond appearances and trappings to see what is within.

Because my daughter grew up with horses she has learned sportsmanship to a high degree. Everyone that competes fairly is a winner. Trophies and ribbons may prove someone a winner, but they do not prove someone is a horseman. She has also learned that some people will do anything to win, regard-less of who it hurts. She knows that those who will cheat in the show ring will also cheat in every other aspect of their life and are not to be trusted.

Because my daughter grew up with horses she has self-esteem and an engaging personality. She can talk to anyone she meets with confidence, because she has to express herself to her horse with more than words. She knows the satisfaction of controlling and teaching a 1000 pound animal that will yield willingly to her gentle touch and ignore the more forceful and inept handling of those stronger than she is. She holds herself with poise and professionalism in the company of those far older than herself.

Because my daughter grew up with horses she has learned to plan ahead. She knows that choices made today can effect what happens five years down the road. She knows that you cannot care for and protect your investments without savings to fall back on. She knows the value of land and buildings. And that caring for your vehicle can mean the difference between easy travel or being stranded on the side of the road with a four horse trailer on a hot day.

When I look at what she has learned and what it will help her become, I can honestly say that I haven't "wasted" a penny on providing her with horses. I only wish that all children had the same opportunities to learn these lessons from horses before setting out on the road to adulthood.

D8 - Is it too late for a 17yo boy to start getting around horses?  My wife has always pestered our son that he should ask out a particular girl - she happens to have grown up around horses.  I have spoken with her (attends same church) and she is quite mature and seems extremely level headed.  Her father has indicated that horses are not cheap (understatement) but that he hopes to recoup some of the money when she goes off to college - she is not taking the horse and plans are to lease out the horse (who knew) to a up and coming horseman (or horsewoman?).

I took the OP as more of a generic statement about the kid/family finding an activity that is wholesome and, by its nature, helps in the maturation process and maybe self-esteem process - even if you are not the very best.  I personally think there are some very bad activities (most technology based stuff - internet and gaming) that have a natural draw if a kid does not have other activities that keep his interest.  I have lots of sad stories around baseball and have seen too many instances of parents pushing their kid - that is not what I took from the OP despite seeing it happen too often.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

D8 - Is it too late for a 17yo boy to start getting around horses?  My wife has always pestered our son that he should ask out a particular girl - she happens to have grown up around horses.  I have spoken with her (attends same church) and she is quite mature and seems extremely level headed.  Her father has indicated that horses are not cheap (understatement) but that he hopes to recoup some of the money when she goes off to college - she is not taking the horse and plans are to lease out the horse (who knew) to a up and coming horseman (or horsewoman?).

I took the OP as more of a generic statement about the kid/family finding an activity that is wholesome and, by its nature, helps in the maturation process and maybe self-esteem process - even if you are not the very best.  I personally think there are some very bad activities (most technology based stuff - internet and gaming) that have a natural draw if a kid does not have other activities that keep his interest.  I have lots of sad stories around baseball and have seen too many instances of parents pushing their kid - that is not what I took from the OP despite seeing it happen too often.

I agree with the assessment of the OP

LOL...it is never too late.  I did not really  grow up around horses either. My dad did not get involved with horses until he was around 40.  He is now 74 and still ropes and rides every week.  Matter of fact he entered a team roping event last month in Las Vegas and had a great time.  

Leasing horses is not too uncommon.  I guess when some horses are priced in the 6 figures, you get a little bit of everything.

d8 posted:

... 

A Father's Explanation of Why He Had Horses for His Children

My daughter turned sixteen years old today...

Powerful story, D8.  Thanks for sharing.  This isn't actually your story, is it?

As I read this, I thought of all of the character building aspects mentioned as it relates to my wife, who was raised around horses.  Many apply to her and many do not.  I guess, of course, this goes back to the other parenting and outside influences that are also part of a person's upbringing outside of the primary activity of interest.  

Side note... I, on the other hand, was NOT raised around horses.  On one of our earlier dates, she had me come out to her folks' ranch to ride.  Grandma lived on the property and was out watching us saddle the horses and start our ride.  When I mounted, I did something the horse didn't like and she sent me flying.  Grandma couldn't stop laughing.  After that day, EVERY time I saw grandma, she would get a big smile and re-tell that story.  Glad I could bring happiness to others  

cabbagedad posted:

d8 posted:

... 

A Father's Explanation of Why He Had Horses for His Children

My daughter turned sixteen years old today...

Powerful story, D8.  Thanks for sharing.  This isn't actually your story, is it?

As I read this, I thought of all of the character building aspects mentioned as it relates to my wife, who was raised around horses.  Many apply to her and many do not.  I guess, of course, this goes back to the other parenting and outside influences that are also part of a person's upbringing outside of the primary activity of interest.  

Side note... I, on the other hand, was NOT raised around horses.  On one of our earlier dates, she had me come out to her folks' ranch to ride.  Grandma lived on the property and was out watching us saddle the horses and start our ride.  When I mounted, I did something the horse didn't like and she sent me flying.  Grandma couldn't stop laughing.  After that day, EVERY time I saw grandma, she would get a big smile and re-tell that story.  Glad I could bring happiness to others  

It is not my story, but I can relate being a HS teacher/coach and see many of the characteristics listed in my daughter.  A few years ago I took a coaching position at a small rural school so my kids could grow up on a ranch.  Like you and some have mentioned there are many avenues to teach your children the traits you would like them to have.  I just chose the rural, ranch life to do so.   The activity is not so important as the positive parental involvement in their kid's life.

lol,,,, looks like the date must have gone pretty well after that if she still decided to marry you anyway.