Why is it...

I guess they could admit messing up a call here and there, but ultimately, they are not between the lines. Players win and players lose.

I don't know what good it would do for a coach to say he messed up a call other than to try and satify the fans and give them more fodder to criticize later on.

In your example, the team lost by two runs. How many chances did those kids have in 7 innings to change the outcome and they blew it? Should the 3-hole hitter stand up there and say, "I struck out in the 3rd inning with two on and two outs. I should have hit a double there"?

Tychco,

I agree 100% with the point that players win and players lose, with one exception... They win and lose once the ball is put in play. Gametime adjustments, moving guys over to match up with a dead-pull hitter, calling for a squeeze play or a hit-and-run, however, is where coaches play an invalueable role.

While the 3 holer should have driven in 2 runs in your example, does accountability go out the window for coaches? If there is no gray area to your comment, why do coaches need to show up for the games?

I expect your perspective to be "IN GENERAL, players win and players lose..."

One coach actually said "you guys tried your hardest and I made a bad call, we will get 'em next time". I thought that was one classy statement and one player actually said to his dad "that's why I love playing for him".

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tychco:
Players win and players lose.

"I don't know what good it would do for a coach to say he messed up a call other than to try and satify the fans and give them more fodder to criticize later on." Tycho

Are you saying that coaches don't affect the W/L records?

Teaching young men to admit error to those the error affects would do a lot of good. It shows character and will serve them well as husbands and fathers.

"Satify the fans" - no-
Help players respect their coach - yes-

"Fodder to criticize": A man who cannot admit a mistake while he points out the mistakes of others is going to draw criticism and rightly so. A fair man will still be criticized - by those who are uninformed or have an ax to grind - but those who know him will defend him.

I don't disagree with the premise that admitting one's mistake shows character. AND, I should have probably placed a qualifier that, IN GENERAL, but I have found that there is a tendency to lay every loss at the coachs' feet, implying that it is always the coach's fault.

Yes, a coach can make a mistake in sending a runner and getting him thrown out and those are usually obvious to everyone. But you lose me on the argument that he has the wrong lineup, calling for a squeeze play, etc.

Maybe the batter at the plate is on fire...or is a bad bunter. What if he bunts and pops it up to the catcher? Then the coach gets crucified for making the wrong. I NEVER hear a parent say, "Man, that was a great call on the squeeze...I wish Litlle Johnny could have gotten that bunt down". All I hear is, "What is Coach Dufus doing?"

And who is to say what the "right" lineup is? The coach is there every day and knows what the capabilities of his players are.

I do not think a coach should skate on taking responsibility...not at all. But I also think it is too easy to point the finger at him too much.

My final point is this. My son's team played the district leader Tuesday. Our coach pitched what I consider to be our fourth best pitcher with his ace available. I thought he was nuts. The kid went out and kept a potent offense to 3 runs (1 earned) in 5 innings. Did the coach get lucky...or did he know something I didn't?

Tychco,

I think I may not have clarified my point and rather than comeing across as "positive" input from coaches it came across as negative.

The coach is invalueable to the game on the field, during the game. He is there to put the best 9 on the field for THAT game, make adjustments, call for a bunt single when the 3rd baseman is playing deep, etc. What those players do with it once the ball is in play is where the fun starts!

Point is, coaches are the 10th and 11th man in the lineup and sometimes, especially in a tight game, become your leadoff and clean-up hitters respectively (figuratively, obviously).

In your example, you actually answered your own question. You say the coach knows his players being with them everyday. Throwing the 4th pitcher out there...maybe you guys needed a junkballer to throw the batters off and keep them guessing, reaching, etc. No idea what school you are from but I bet your pitcher did not have many k's and a bunch of pop-ups and ground balls...

Jacket said it well..."Fodder to criticize": A man who cannot admit a mistake while he points out the mistakes of others is going to draw criticism and rightly so. A fair man will still be criticized - by those who are uninformed or have an ax to grind - but those who know him will defend him.

I agree that any of us should admit our mistakes.

I guess my experience has been that most fans/parents are already poised to strike at coaches these days. An admission of a mistake my diffuse them, or light them on fire.

And yes, our "thumber" induced many pop ups and grounds. But my point is, he may not be the 4th guy in the rotation in our coach's eyes...just mine.

Anyway, a good discussion.

In all my year's of baseball I've never seen during a game the Coach hit a ball, throw a ball or strikeout anyone.

Besides... I always thought it was the umpire's fault on a loss...

quote:

Besides... I always thought it was the umpire's fault on a loss...

I have to agree with Mav on this one.

Come on...the coach is ultimatley responsible for how a team performs. He calls all the shots. My sons coach will never admit that he has made any mistakes this season. He trys to blame everyone but himself. He has even tried to blame the kids that were sitting on the bench. It's everyone else fault but his. I understand that players hit the balls, throw the balls, and bat, but a good coach will get the best out of every player. If players respect their coach, then they will give it their best for him.

As the old saying goes, "the buck stops here", and "here" is the coach. No one else! The proof is in our W/L record. Respect is gained not just given.

Yes, it is easy to point the finger to the coach, but if players that make error after error or players not hitting are continuely left in games, that is the coaches decision too. If my son is making errors and not hitting I would completely understand if he were taken out. If your not performing then that is the way it is.

It is the coaches job to whatever it takes to try to win games, and it is their job to take responsibility.

quote:

Originally posted by nobraggers:
If players respect their coach, then they will give it their best for him.

If the players are not giving their best then it is on them. A player that does not try cannot fall back on the coach, it falls upon themself.

quote:

Originally posted by nobraggers:
Come on...the coach is ultimatley responsible for how a team performs. He calls all the shots. My sons coach will never admit that he has made any mistakes this season. He trys to blame everyone but himself. He has even tried to blame the kids that were sitting on the bench. It's everyone else fault but his. I understand that players hit the balls, throw the balls, and bat, but a good coach will get the best out of every player. If players respect their coach, then they will give it their best for him.

As the old saying goes, "the buck stops here", and "here" is the coach. No one else! The proof is in our W/L record. Respect is gained not just given.

Yes, it is easy to point the finger to the coach, but if players that make error after error or players not hitting are continuely left in games, that is the coaches decision too. If my son is making errors and not hitting I would completely understand if he were taken out. If your not performing then that is the way it is.

It is the coaches job to whatever it takes to try to win games, and it is their job to take responsibility.

Not to add fuel to the fire but are you saying that if a kid doesn't respect his coach he will not play well? Wouldn't the kid attempt to play well for himself and the team regardless how he feels about the coach ?? If not, bowling or golf might be a new opportunity.

quote:

In all my year's of baseball I've never seen during a game the Coach hit a ball, throw a ball or strikeout anyone.

Not taking sides here, you guys can debate it all you want. But at the high school level have you ever seen a coach leave a kid in too long. Have you seen a coach bring a pitcher back too soon. Have you seen a coach with an excessive pitch count on a young arm.

But then again, this might be go under the "obvious mistake to everyone" category.

quote:

Originally posted by Danny Boydston:

quote:

In all my year's of baseball I've never seen during a game the Coach hit a ball, throw a ball or strikeout anyone.

Not taking sides here, you guys can debate it all you want. But at the high school level have you ever seen a coach leave a kid in too long. Have you seen a coach bring a pitcher back too soon. Have you seen a coach with an excessive pitch count on a young arm.

But then again, this might be go under the "obvious mistake to everyone" category.

But if he takes the kid out because of pitch count, and the next guys gives up the game, then the coach is stupid for pulling his better pitcher. Or if he doesn't bring his best arm back to win a "big" game, he is told he isn't even trying to win.

Look, I know there are bad coaches out there, but do you guys see where he gets it from either side on some of this stuff.

Tycho, that's why I stopped coaching at an early age.

The right thing might not be the popular thing, but as a good coach, you do the right thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Danny Boydston:
Tycho, that's why I stop coaching at an early age.

The right thing might not be the popular thing, but as a good coach, you do the right thing.

Agreed.

Mavrick - Yes, I am sure that every player wants to play good. But, they do respond or play to the way that they are coached. And when a coach does nothing but bring players down, then after a while that is how they are going to play.

Haven't you ever seen a team that wasn't playing good, and then that team gets a new coach with a different attitude and that team turns around. It happens all the time. A coach can make or break a team.

quote:

Originally posted by Danny Boydston:
Tycho, that's why I stopped coaching at an early age.

The right thing might not be the popular thing, but as a good coach, you do the right thing.

We all know that no blanket statement can cover all coaches, players or parents. There are good
I would always choose:
a coach who values a pitcher's arm over having to deal with an angry fan.
a coach who takes the time to explain that playing time, batting order and field time is earned and lost.
a player who values his team more than his individual stats.
a player who respects the worst coach and learns from the experience.
a parent who has prepared his son to rise to a challenge, learn from a mistake, and lead by example.
a fan who can see potential in someone else's child.

Character is doing the right thing when no one (or everyone) is wathcing.

I would have to say that the coach is the most important part of the team. He is the one that is supposed to look at the team objectively and position them to win. His attitude towards his players directly affects the way they play, regardless if they are playing for themselves or the team. An example of this very thing is being lived out here in my hometown. Last year we had a fireball coach that the parents did not love or hate, but his players would do anything he asked. I witnessed on more than one occasion someone questioning his decisions and his players defending him with an almost scarry intensity. Our team made it to the third round of the playoffs before we lost out with only three sr's. This year the asst coach stepped up and took over, only needing to fill three spots, and completely destroyed the team. The sr's that departed were good ballplayers, but did not lead the team in any category nor did they play in every game. They have only managed five wins this year (was a pre-season top 10 team), due to the coaches attitude towards the players. Some coaches are meant to be asst coaches because they are good at that, but being a head coach is a tough job that not every coach can handle.

Maybe so, hornet. I guess the players I have enjoyed watching the most have had good and bad coaching at times, but they still play the game the same way. They do the things right on the field, whether their coach is doign everything "right" or not.

If a player allows a coaches attitude to change how he plays, then he probably will wash out of the game sooner rather than later, JMO.

I know the coach made a huge mistake and I wasn't even there.

Having any meeting with the players close enough for a parent to hear...

Down the left field line regards,

Ken,

I think I know the incident you mention above...but he has never forgotten it!!!

After reading this thread, I guess it comes down to me that a coach is part of the team. You don't have 2 parts (coaches and players), they are all "one part". They all have to pull together or it doesn't work. I think good coaches do own up when they make mistakes and try to avoid making them again. Players try to do the same thing. Mistakes (errors) happen in a game from both coaches and players, but if they are in it together, they can all still head to the same end point. Some errors are physical, and some are mental. Coaches make them too, and the players have to overcome those with play on the field, just like when a player makes a mistake or error and they have to overcome that.

This is one of the biggest fundamental rules of being a "team". When I see parents talking about the team being one thing and the coaches being another, you are already on the down-hill slide. And the funny part is, this doesn't apply to baseball alone, I see it in the workplace everyday with managers and employees.

I feel a lot of what kids hear at home makes a diret impact of how they perform on the field and how they perform for that particular coach. It is huge for the parents to show support of the coaching staff in front of the kids. You can bash them all you want behind closed doors but don't do it in front of the kid or the coach will lose the players respect.

Some kids are self motivated regardless of what the coach and his staff does. They play because they love it and do not need any external motivation. Everyone is a little bit different. It is the most fun to watch teams that coach themselves on the field from what they have learned through practices. Those are usually the best teams around.

quote:

Originally posted by PiratePadre:
Ken,

I think I know the incident you mention above...but he has never forgotten it!!!

Seriously, I have no idea about any incident with any high school coach and his players or parents.

quote:

It is huge for the parents to show support of the coaching staff in front of the kids. You can bash them all you want behind closed doors but don't do it in front of the kid or the coach will lose the players respect.

Best piece of advice ever given on this forum.

Coach should only apologize on those rare (and they do need to be rare) occasions when he clearly made an unrecoverable mistake that cost the game. NEVER when he makes a judgment call that doesn't pan out - like pulling a pitcher too late, or intentionally walking a runner that eventually scores. He should never discuss those with anybody except his boss.

There's nothing more pathetic than the self-gratifying coach who's always trying to show everyone what a stand-up guy he is by constantly telling everyone "this one's on my shoulders". On these teams the coach is loved but not respected, and ball players eventually lose self-accountability for creating wins.

The problem will almost always lie with results oriented people - whether that be the parent or the coach.