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Why Not!

H Homerun041,000+ posts
With parents wanting to "inform" their son's high school coaches about their son, what other things should parents not do and why?

Here is an example of something from a highly scouted travel program, started laughing when I was reading it:

ARIZONA FALL CLASSICS A SUCCESS

The Arizona Fall Classic is always the highlight of our fall program. NorCal sent a team of unsigned-seniors as well as a team of junior prospects to the AZ Senior Fall Classic the weekend of October 12-14. The format of the Senior and Junior Classic is one that accents showcasing players and de-emphasizes winning games. This allows coaches to freely substitute players in and out.

NorCal Baseball spear-headed this format change along with tournament director Ted Heid (a good friend of NorCal Baseball). We felt that this tournament was designed for the pro scouts and college coaches to get the best looks at the talents of the players. Taking out the keeping of score made it easy for the coaches to then do the proper thing and showcase their players without worrying about the winning. In the end, the winners are the players.

The senior group did an outstanding job (4-0 unofficial record) and many of those players helped themselves in the college recruiting process with good performances. The junior squad did equally as well as many of the players put themselves on the recruiting map with their performances.

The sophomores participated in the Junior Classic the weekend of October 19-21. They got to play in five games. The highlight of the weekend was playing a game at ASU’s Packard Stadium against the Dodger scout team. The sophomore squad accorded themselves extremely well and several of the players showed that they are among the top players in the country.

It’s important to note that these tournaments are highly-recruited. We got a lot of feedback from the coaches, scouts, and tournament director. We want to make sure we take positive steps so that NorCal Baseball is seen in a favorable light. The following action steps will take care of that.

1. Parents do not belong in the seated area behind the backstop with the college coaches and pro scouts. Let the professionals do their work and be able to talk freely. Many of you own radar guns. These types of events are not the appropriate time for you to use them. You will be seen as a meddling parent and an unwanted “package deal”.

2. Players need to be prepared with their eating and drinking needs. We expect the players to have their own coolers for ice, water, power bars, etc. Dugouts are off-limits to parents unless they are requested by the coaching staff. We are trying to prepare our players to play at the next level. That means letting them take responsibility for themselves. STAY AWAY!

3. Parents should be a spectator at games. They have no business talking to coaches, scouts or tournament directors at these events unless spoken to. This is a bad reflection on our program when we have parents not staying within the guidelines and a bad reflection on you.

Trust us on these things. We have done this a long time and these guidelines are set up for all of our players to be successful and seen on a positive light.

NorCal Baseball
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H Homerun041,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
HR, were you with the Norcal Cards at the Sr. Fall Classic? Bum, Jr. pitched against you. Definitely NOT the kid whose dad was screaming 'DAMMIT THROW STRIKES' Wink

No, I just read it on their website and thought it was pretty funny that they were having to train new parents.

I always thought it was pretty funny when you have a parent try to sell their kid and when he is on the bump, he can't locate and the parent yells out "throw Strikes!" What do you think the kid is thinking - what do you think I am trying to do....
Last edited by Homerun04
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
I think the “parent rules” are poorly written and argumentative. They even include the screaming all caps "STAY AWAY". If I were a parent at Nor Cal this approach would anger me. It’s almost as if the staff is talking down to the parents. If a coach has parental issues I think they need to be resolved between the coaches and the players. For instance --- some of the player's rules would eliminate their problems:
1. "Players are not allowed visitors in the dugout at any time".
2. "Players must have a personal cooler in the dugout that includes drinks and power bars PRIOR to the start of practice, game, or event."

Failure to comply with players breaking the rules could result in the player being benched or released. My son played at a couple of "next levels" and no one "prepared" me by giving me a set of rules to abide by. I think Nor Cal coaches need to understand there are no "package deals" at the next levels and using this as a weak justification to eliminate things that bug them. Parents are nothing more than fans and are treated as such at the next level.
Fungo
CPLZCPLZ1,000+ posts
Having given seminars, written books, made TV shows, hosted radio...all on fishing, I can tell you one thing I believe in very strongly...never assume knowledge. Just because it seems so obvious to you, doesn't mean someone else can see it at all. Whether they should or not is irrelevant, they don't. And I personally wouldn't be a harsh critic of someone ignorant, lord knows there's plenty I'm ignorant about and I wouldn't like to be singled out just because no one had the motivation or stones to enlighten me.

Fungo is spot on about the delivery, I too might be a little peeved at their approach, but I applaud their effort.
observer44observer441,000+ posts
.

NorCal is one of, if not (arguably) the top travel ball program in the country...

...Their coaches and directors are usually way ahead of the curve and I think in this case as well...

Now while the guidelines/rules might seem juvenile...look around...go to pretty well any event...any team, not just NorCal...this IS much of the parental world that coaches, scouts, recruiters are dealing with...A large number of parents are sadly confused and still under the false impression that advocacy, pampering and advice are just as important as on field performance...

Players at these events are expected by the coaching staff to "step up"...prepare themselves for the next level...let their games do the talking. Players are expected to conduct themselves like college athletes.

Why shouldn't the parents be educated and expected to do the same? Why shouldn't parents be expected to conduct themselves like "college parents"

I am a big fan of letting the players "talk" for themselves on the field. I applaud the effort.

Cool 44
Last edited by observer44
M Michael'sDad100+ posts
I agree whole heartedly with FUNGO, this is poorly written and appears to be trying to use certain items to try and justify what the NorCal coaches themselves don't like.

If they don't want parents behind the backstop, rope it off and put up reserved signs. Why do you care if parents bring in a radar gun or not? And not speak to coaches unless spoken to? These guys are not gods. I agree, you don't want people continually bugging them but most have been around long enough to handle this themselves. Also, jsut tell the boys they cann't have visitors in the dugouts.

I think it could have been handled MUCH better.
G gotwood4sale10,000+ posts
NorCal probably is one of the best programs in the country (44 will back me up on this!) and their professionalism with which they run their program must be very high as evidenced by their achieving such a lofty standing. Considering this I must agree with both Fungo and Michael's Dad.

I am not surprised in the least that there are problems with certain parents because of their behavior. Whatever the staff at NorCal finds troublesome should, for the sake of their program, be addressed successfully.

Surely all of the written material that each player and/or parent receives from NorCal is as professionally composed as the actual routine and format of what they present on the field. If it were not then the program would not be thriving.

With that said, and because I have not actually seen their literature, I am assuming the rules that we are discussing in regards to parental behavior do not meet the same standard as the rest of their written communication.

They are getting good results on the field with their professional approach and they should do the same with the parents. There are better and less antagonistic words to convey their message in my opinion.

Of course all bets are off if a more professional approach was used in the past and it failed to keep troublesome parents in line!
Last edited by gotwood4sale
B Bee>1,000+ posts
quote:
by O44: NorCal is one of, if not (arguably) the top travel ball program in the country...
arguably(??).. prolly one of stronger in Nor Cal tho Eek


quote:
O44: Players at these events are expected by the coaching staff to "step up"... prepare themselves for the next level...
no problem there



quote:
O44: Why shouldn't the parents be educated and expected to do the same?
sending 'em to hsbbweb is educating them ...

telling 'em where to sit, who to talk to, and how to pack a lunch box is condescending will likely irritate many


interesting, they pat themselves on the back for their "no score keeping" format ...
then announce the scores Confused
Last edited by Bee>
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
I do agree with Fungo on some points, but I think that parents in the stands are a lot different than they were even a few years ago.

On son's travel team, the manager called a meeting BEFORE you paid any money. It was a mandatory meeting for both players and parents. If you don't come, you don't play, even those who played before.

At that meeting, the rules are basically set for players, and suggestions for parents to follow, everything explained. Some of it included some of the above. This avoids any situation such as the above that may arise later on. On most of the teams con played, this was usually a practice of most managers.

I do not disagree with the above suggestions, maybe how it was handled.

JMO.
Dad04Dad045,000+ posts
Son's team was very laid back, which obviously stemmed from the coach. The vast majority of the kids were headed for major programs, and/or pro ball, and/or had brothers/fathers/uncles from proball or major programs. That stuff was long understood without a freaking memo.

Unsigned seniors is the clue to the memo. First time around.
Last edited by Dad04
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
While I do not know what led the NorCal coaches in that direction, it is a direction that does not surprise me.
I can fully appreciate folks might find the "cautions" to parents to be heavy handed.
On the other hand, and this might be geographical, some parents in this area do not take "no" for an answer when it comes to their children.
They are "very" hard driving in business, have enjoyed considerable financial success, measure their worth in the 10's and 100's of millions, and every perceived "slight" is viewed as directed toward their child. One cannot have a discussion with them without it, at some point, including how the future of their child has been negatively impacted or jeopardized.
I talked recently about the issue with one successful coach. His view is that the landscape is changing significantly and wealth is often a factor. One parent of a player in his high school had many issues and would not take no for an answer. Ultimately used the checkbook, which they could do because it is a private school.
The coach ended up in over 6 hours of meetings that involved the parents and principal during which he was required to explain and justify every coaching decision he made that "impacted" their son, embarrassed "their" son in front of his friends, and which were based on "favoritism" toward others. "Didn't he understand their son's future in baseball was on the line since he played with a prestigious travel team and was the only one from that team not playing varsity in high school."
With what little I know about NorCal, I would expect they have explored and tried other options. I also expect most parents are quite supportive.
To phrase it differently, how do you say "NO" to the parent of a "trophy" child?
Last edited by infielddad
justbaseballjustbaseball10,000+ posts
I have had 2 sons play for NorCal. In both cases I have felt NorCal did a wonderful job or providing quality coaching, administration and opportunities to shine in front of the proper audience whether it be USA Baseball, college coaches or pro scouts. Perfect? No, no one is. But overall we have liked it and felt we were treated respectfully and with care.

Some parents in the program tend to be high-maintenance. From what I have seen, they do a good job of keeping that in check. They generally attract the very top players in all of Northern California (a very large population base) and with that comes some extremely high expectations from the parents. On that end of it, NorCal has a tough job.

I don't know if they could've delivered the message better or not. When I read it, it didn't bother or offend me at all. But I'm just one person, one data point...so perhaps I'm in the minority?

In any case, I just thought I'd throw in my firsthand experience and perspective on it. They've always adjusted to whats happening today and if they figure out their message was too strong, I'm sure they'll adjust on it in the future.
Last edited by justbaseball
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
"It’s important to note that these tournaments are highly-recruited. We got a lot of feedback from the coaches, scouts, and tournament director. We want to make sure we take positive steps so that NorCal Baseball is seen in a favorable light."

To follow up on justbb, I cut and pasted a particular section. For me, at least, this indicates that the NorCal coaches received feedback that was not favorable and the feedback came from multiple sources.
Since none of us were there, who knows what led coaches/scouts/the tournament director to make comments that led to this.
These are coaches who have had great success with their program and with the kids who play in the program.
I think they were communicating very important feedback about how scouts and others perceived some actions.
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
My son plays with NorCal, and so I had already read this piece before it became a subject of comment here. It didn't cause me any anger; in fact I didn't find it remarkable at all.

Now, it did cross my mind that I, as the parent of a HS freshman player, might be in the target audience. This weekend the NorCal 8th grade and freshman teams are playing in the Sophomore Fall Classic, also at the Peoria Sports Complex near Phoenix. Some of the players on those two teams are new to NorCal, and their parents may well need reminders and training on how to behave. The stakes won't be nearly as high as at the Senior Fall Classic, which according to the organizers had "Over 250 College Coaches representing over 140 schools signed in at registration". Even so, as the title of this thread so aptly says: Why not learn proper behavior for showcase environments?

Regarding "packing lunch", perhaps it is different in other parts of the country, but here many tournaments are played at baseball complexes which do not allow anyone, including players, to bring food or drink into the facility. So it is the norm for parents to buy food/drink and deliver it to the team. As the players get older, the venue changes to high school and college fields (in this case, the Mariners/Padres spring training facility), and players bring their own coolers.
Last edited by 3FingeredGlove
OLDSLUGGER8OLDSLUGGER81,000+ posts
Most parents of summer Premier players know how to handle themselves at events because they never had a reason from the start to do what this document considers "unruly behavior".

I have sat at tournaments where the same coaches who were recruiting my son were only a few feet away. Never said a word to them except hello, and thats if they acknowledged us first.

Never had a reason to go in the dugout, didn't want to.

Most scouts and college coaches don't give a darn dang about the score, or the outcome of the game. Everyone knows these teams are about exposure, competition, and becoming a better player. The trophy means nothing.

Radar gun. I saw one parent bring a radar gun. I laughed, especially when it topped out at 78 mph. He quickly put it away.

The occassional "get me a Gatorade mom" coming from a player to his parent is a nice reminder that they know you are there if needed. LOL

I, and many others don't need a set of rules handed out like you were a schoolkid, especially if your playing fee funds the coaches for the summer.
C CaBB1,000+ posts
I agree with Infield Dad about some of the parents in our geographic area. When you are very wealthy and are used to being in charge your behavior may not be the best in these situations. I think these parents do need educating about proper behavior at these events. But, since this was jr's and seniors you'd think these parents knew how to behave by this time. And then finances come into play... just because you pay the coaches do some parents think they (the parents) are in control???

And I presume this was on the Norcal website. Why is it anyone's business what messages are being sent to the members of this organization? Norcal recruits potential D1 players and probably expects them to act like that.
Dad04Dad045,000+ posts
NEXT LEVEL you say? I'm sorry if this appears a hijack, but ran across this recent article about some students at the next level, that didn't get the memo before going out in public.

"The group turned our 102-year-old, fine-dining restaurant into a frat house," wrote Caroline O'Connor, manager of the restaurant's sales and catering, in her e-mail to Machen.

"...members of the group started fights, vomited in various parts of the restaurant, stole liquor from the bar.."

http://www.alligator.org/articles/2007/10/26/news/greek_affairs/zeta.txt

Glad I never was involved in a sorority. Smile
Last edited by Dad04
T TripleDad500+ posts
Whats the big deal! A letter telling parents how
NOT to behave. I did not find it offensive at all. The coaches wanted to comminicate a message and they got it done. No need to over analyse its intent ,tone or whatever.

From what I have seen, many of parent are not fully versed in scout/parent protocal. In fact, there are some that a coach needs to be direct with or they won't get the message.
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
Funny how we poor folks down here in the south here have the same problems as y'all, we just handle them differently. I can hear someone (maybe even a coach) say it now --- “Hey Bubba, tell that dude in the flowery shirt and the fake hair to shut up and sit down!”
Fungo
Last edited by Fungo
L LLorton100+ posts
Having had personal experience with the NorCal program at its early formation I would say that the coaches do their best to provide a well directed and disciplined environment for the players.

Parents are another kettle-of-fish. Had one parent that screamed at his son the entire time we were associated with the program.

But lets not forget here that parents are adults, and this is still a country where people have certain rights.

If NorCal wants parents to observe behavior standards relative to the field of play, dugouts and the areas designated for scouts it should be made clear at the time of sign ups as part of a package that is handed out to both player and parent with required signature in acknowledgement of their understanding and compliance of those requirements as well as the penalties for violations of said rules.

There should not be conjecture and snide observances of parents who have not been informed of the desired behavior at any event where those parents are then used as an excuse to denigrate their son's for the parents ignorance. Tell me who would really want to have that environment as a program to be associated with? Not most normal people.

Communication of what is desired is the answer here. But I must agree with Fungo tht adults have their own personalities...if you don't like them, ignore them and deal with the issue as an adult. Speak to them aside, not behind their backs. JMO

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