Why use high drop bat when old enough to use BBCOR in school ball?

My point in player selection (Try outs practices on a team) is that the playing field needs to be level.  For 13 / 14U I have radical ideas like I don't allow one player to pitch on a 54' mound and have another pitching at 60' and try to compare them as equal.  We require players to supply BBCOR bats and inspect to assure that is what they are using in tryouts.  For team selection an equal playing field is important.  When it comes to tournaments I feel the same way, keep the playing field even.

If you sign your team up for a tournament that does not have BBCOR restrictions allow them to use what everyone else is using.  If you don't want them using non-BBCOR bats be careful the tournaments and leagues you enter them into have appropriate equipment rule.

There is a great deal more difference between a drop 5 and a BBCOR than just the 2 Oz weight difference.  The drop 5 bats are allowed to provide rebound rates that the BBCOR was specifically intended to remove from the game at more advanced levels.  In addition if you are concerned about the 2oz they can get a non-BBCOR drop 3.  They are becoming harder and harder to find but they are still out there. 

The answer to the why to use the non-BBCOR bat if allowed is not difficult, the ball leaves that bat at a higher velocity and travels further with the same swing and contact.  I do not have the stats but the eyeball test says up to 15% further with the same swing.  If a 13U or 14U freshman player is playing in a summer tournament that allows non-BBCOR bat my thought would be why would they or their parent place themselves and their team at a significant disadvantage giving up 10, 20 or 30 feet on every solid contact by swinging a BBCOR when everyone else is using a legal bat that produces better results? 

Son's org "requires" bbcor for the 14 yo 8th grade teams.  Most local tournaments have the -5 rules.  Many teams let their kids use whatever is legal in the tournament.  Son's team just plays them, and sometimes they get beat. Oh well.

Stats4Gnats posted:

Just who is it a 14U supposed to be impressing? His dad? Some travel coach? His HS coach? I suppose there are a few college coaches out there looking at 14Us, and I wouldn’t doubt there are some ML scouts doing it too. But really. Is the difference between a drop 8 composite and a drop 3 BBCOR gonna get a 14YO player much more than a trophy?

First and foremost himself.  The more success a player has the more fun the game is.  Have you ever hit out a HR?  It is an amzing feeling.  My son has hit a few game HR on the big field.  Not a lot of kids are hitting them out.  It's an accomplishment that he will always remember.  Even if he never hits one out with BBCOR.  Why would anyone want to take that away.  After practice, the only time I get any feedback from him is if he hit one out during BP.  

Who else is it impressing?  Everyone loves the long ball.  The only ones that don't is the defense.  LOL  We act like with these hot bats that it's a chip shot.  That just isn't true for 13's and 14's.  It's not common place for the kids to hit HR's 300 plus feet and it's not easy.  It's not a missed hit fly that happens to carry like LL.  More than likely the kids hitting them at 13 and 14 with their -5's are the same kids that start to hit them with BBCOR 16-18U.  

I can think of about 15 home runs during games over the summer on the big fields.  That's counting both teams and about 50 games.  

So why wouldn't you give that opportunity to a palyer?  

Ah the good ole days when my kid swung a drop 5 with 2 3/4" barrel EasrTon Rival.  He and his teammates could really mash with that bat. In fact that beauty is in my profile pic.    

Now that he has mainly converted to PO I really love BBCOR  

BackstopDad32 posted:

Ah the good ole days when my kid swung a drop 5 with 2 3/4" barrel EasrTon Rival.  He and his teammates could really mash with that bat   

Now that he has mainly converted to PO I really love BBCOR  

 

 

 

 

 

Hah! As a pitcher's dad, I resemble that remark.

Go44dad posted:

Son's org "requires" bbcor for the 14 yo 8th grade teams.  Most local tournaments have the -5 rules.  Many teams let their kids use whatever is legal in the tournament.  Son's team just plays them, and sometimes they get beat. Oh well.

My sons 8th grade team was similar, but it was depndant on the level of tournament.  If it was a local tournament that he felt we should roll through, he had the kids use their bbcor.  If it was a higher caliber tournament or game than -5's were allowed.  

LOL, I have to reminisce.  2017 is in a 13U tournament a few years back no BBCOR requirement and at 5'2" 95lbs he came up down by a run with a man on 3rd.  The whole team is sharing a single drop -5 Easton and he turned on an inside pitch and cleared a double high 16' short left porch (280')  He ran to first took his turn and couldn't pick up the ball so he ran back to first...coach told him to go on, so he ran to second and stopped again...at this point the umpire finally came in and told him to keep running.  His team mates were merciless about being in such bad shape he had to stop twice on a home run...After the game I had to ask...did you think somehow the ball bounced over that 16" fence and he said "No, but I know I can't hit that far so I figured it went in a hole or something"  Never let it be said baseball players are not realists!

Starting at 13u we told the kids we were preparing them for high school and high school age travel. Part of that was using a -3 bat. Our middle schools used NFHS rules. If you have to swing a -3 in middle school you will swing a -3 in travel. We were more interested in developing players than winning tournaments. But it's amazing how much you win when playing the game properly is the priority.

Pretty simple reason 13 & 14U's use higher drop bats in tournaments. Competition uses them so why put yourself at a disadvantage? Agree with Roothog it doesn't cause a problem when they go back to BBCOR.

If my kid hit well with a trampoline bat from the mid 90's I'd let him use it.  You want to have whatever legal advantage you can get.  Your talent will dictate whether or not you can handle BBCOR in the future.  Just like it dictates whether or not you can handle wood.  

MDBALLDAD hit it right on...the non BBCOR bat is simply a hotter better, even better when you add in the slight swing weight difference.  At that age they shouldn't be allowed.  If you want to swing a lighter bat, then find a wood bat that is greater than a -3....plenty of them out there

lefthookdad posted:

MDBALLDAD hit it right on...the non BBCOR bat is simply a hotter better, even better when you add in the slight swing weight difference.  At that age they shouldn't be allowed.  If you want to swing a lighter bat, then find a wood bat that is greater than a -3....plenty of them out there

Agreed.  I personally think swinging the BBCOR in games will help make them better hitters.  The advantage of the -5 also include much larger sweet spots.  The increased swing speed and trampoline effect aside.  I assume the new USAbat standard will address some of this.

Mishits become liners to the outfield.  I think BBCOR should be required for kids at least by 14u.  Not because I care if my kid loses a game, but these light bats are not safe.  There are too many full grown "man childs" I have seen this year swinging rocket launchers.  If I had my choice, we would only sign up for tournaments where BBCOR is required, but I am not in that position.  

There were several kids swinging -5 even -8 at our hs summer team tryout. I think it imparted an advantage there as well, again because mishits don't look nearly as poorly struck.

RJM posted:

Starting at 13u we told the kids we were preparing them for high school and high school age travel. Part of that was using a -3 bat. Our middle schools used NFHS rules. If you have to swing a -3 in middle school you will swing a -3 in travel. We were more interested in developing players than winning tournaments. But it's amazing how much you win when playing the game properly is the priority.

Could not agree more. Outstanding & unfortunately uncommon philosophy.

I find the idea that swinging -3 bat earlier than required by rule helps or that swinging a bigger drop bat right up until high school hurts to be over thought. I've always allowed then to swing whatever the rules allow and have never seen any problem adjusting immediately to -3 BBCOR.

As an example, our summer team/BR All-star team last year at 15u (mostly incoming sophomores and a couple of incoming juniors) played Babe Ruth under 13-15 rules which allowed any drop unless the bat was composite. Most swung -5 and a couple swung -8. Seven of the starting nine were starters on our successful high school varsity. Those guys adjusted right into BBCOR and even set the all time school season record for hits, triples and doubles. I don't think swinging -5's and -8's the summer before hurt them, nor do I think they would have done better swinging -3 BBCOR that summer.

roothog66 posted:

I find the idea that swinging -3 bat earlier than required by rule helps or that swinging a bigger drop bat right up until high school hurts to be over thought. I've always allowed then to swing whatever the rules allow and have never seen any problem adjusting immediately to -3 BBCOR.

As an example, our summer team/BR All-star team last year at 15u (mostly incoming sophomores and a couple of incoming juniors) played Babe Ruth under 13-15 rules which allowed any drop unless the bat was composite. Most swung -5 and a couple swung -8. Seven of the starting nine were starters on our successful high school varsity. Those guys adjusted right into BBCOR and even set the all time school season record for hits, triples and doubles. I don't think swinging -5's and -8's the summer before hurt them, nor do I think they would have done better swinging -3 BBCOR that summer.

Do you think, beyond the training and preparation aspect of it, that the kids they were playing against were not in greater danger defending against 14 year olds using a -8 bat?  Isn't that the premise behind the decision to switch to BBCOR.  Some of these kids maybe need that crutch because they weigh less than 100 lbs soaking wet, but others I just don't see the need for it.  The extra feet of carry these kids are enjoying also imparts a greatly reduced reaction time for the infielders.

There are middle school teams requiring 12 year olds to swing BBCOR, I just don't see how it hasn't trickled into all organizations by 13-14u. 

The OP question is why use a high drop bat when you are  old (strong) enough to use BBCOR is the question,  I believe it is only to win ballgames.

safeathome posted:

roothog66 posted:

I find the idea that swinging -3 bat earlier than required by rule helps or that swinging a bigger drop bat right up until high school hurts to be over thought. I've always allowed then to swing whatever the rules allow and have never seen any problem adjusting immediately to -3 BBCOR.

As an example, our summer team/BR All-star team last year at 15u (mostly incoming sophomores and a couple of incoming juniors) played Babe Ruth under 13-15 rules which allowed any drop unless the bat was composite. Most swung -5 and a couple swung -8. Seven of the starting nine were starters on our successful high school varsity. Those guys adjusted right into BBCOR and even set the all time school season record for hits, triples and doubles. I don't think swinging -5's and -8's the summer before hurt them, nor do I think they would have done better swinging -3 BBCOR that summer.

Do you think, beyond the training and preparation aspect of it, that the kids they were playing against were not in greater danger defending against 14 year olds using a -8 bat?  Isn't that the premise behind the decision to switch to BBCOR.  Some of these kids maybe need that crutch because they weigh less than 100 lbs soaking wet, but others I just don't see the need for it.  The extra feet of carry these kids are enjoying also imparts a greatly reduced reaction time for the infielders.

There are middle school teams requiring 12 year olds to swing BBCOR, I just don't see how it hasn't trickled into all organizations by 13-14u. 

The OP question is why use a high drop bat when you are  old (strong) enough to use BBCOR is the question,  I believe it is only to win ballgames.

Of course it is to be as competitive as the rule set allows.  You are handicapping your kid and his team.  VERY few batters walk to the plate with BBCOR in nonrequired BBCOR games.  If your coach isn't requiring BBCOR and the rules dont require BBCOR than your decission to send your kid to the plate is selfish.  I have asked a handful of parents, "Why is Johny using his BBCOR bat?  Did you know this tournament allows SL bats."  It is always the same answer, "We want HIM to get used to his BBCOR."  I never once heard a parent state they were concerned their son could hurt someone using a different bat. 

Success is so hard to find in this game and a lot of it has to do with your performance compared to your peers.  Success breeds confidence.  Playing with confidence is fun.  It's a game that is played for FUN.  So if success leads to fun than why wouldn't you give your son the legal tools needed to succeed?   

real green posted:

safeathome posted:

roothog66 posted:

I find the idea that swinging -3 bat earlier than required by rule helps or that swinging a bigger drop bat right up until high school hurts to be over thought. I've always allowed then to swing whatever the rules allow and have never seen any problem adjusting immediately to -3 BBCOR.

As an example, our summer team/BR All-star team last year at 15u (mostly incoming sophomores and a couple of incoming juniors) played Babe Ruth under 13-15 rules which allowed any drop unless the bat was composite. Most swung -5 and a couple swung -8. Seven of the starting nine were starters on our successful high school varsity. Those guys adjusted right into BBCOR and even set the all time school season record for hits, triples and doubles. I don't think swinging -5's and -8's the summer before hurt them, nor do I think they would have done better swinging -3 BBCOR that summer.

Do you think, beyond the training and preparation aspect of it, that the kids they were playing against were not in greater danger defending against 14 year olds using a -8 bat?  Isn't that the premise behind the decision to switch to BBCOR.  Some of these kids maybe need that crutch because they weigh less than 100 lbs soaking wet, but others I just don't see the need for it.  The extra feet of carry these kids are enjoying also imparts a greatly reduced reaction time for the infielders.

There are middle school teams requiring 12 year olds to swing BBCOR, I just don't see how it hasn't trickled into all organizations by 13-14u. 

The OP question is why use a high drop bat when you are  old (strong) enough to use BBCOR is the question,  I believe it is only to win ballgames.

Of course it is to be as competitive as the rule set allows.  You are handicapping your kid and his team.  VERY few batters walk to the plate with BBCOR in nonrequired BBCOR games.  If your coach isn't requiring BBCOR and the rules dont require BBCOR than your decission to send your kid to the plate is selfish.  I have asked a handful of parents, "Why is Johny using his BBCOR bat?  Did you know this tournament allows SL bats."  It is always the same answer, "We want HIM to get used to his BBCOR."  I never once heard a parent state they were concerned their son could hurt someone using a different bat. 

Success is so hard to find in this game and a lot of it has to do with your performance compared to your peers.  Success breeds confidence.  Playing with confidence is fun.  It's a game that is played for FUN.  So if success leads to fun than why wouldn't you give your son the legal tools needed to succeed?   

Because although not nearly as big as some of the kids he plays against (~130 lbs), my son is strong enough like most 14u players to swing a BBCOR bat.  Why would I need to give him a crutch he doesn't need?  Why do >150 lb kids that have gone partially through puberty, strong, need a -5 or a -8?  Only because they don't make nonBBCOR -3 anymore, to win games.

safeathome posted:

real green posted:

safeathome posted:

roothog66 posted:

I find the idea that swinging -3 bat earlier than required by rule helps or that swinging a bigger drop bat right up until high school hurts to be over thought. I've always allowed then to swing whatever the rules allow and have never seen any problem adjusting immediately to -3 BBCOR.

As an example, our summer team/BR All-star team last year at 15u (mostly incoming sophomores and a couple of incoming juniors) played Babe Ruth under 13-15 rules which allowed any drop unless the bat was composite. Most swung -5 and a couple swung -8. Seven of the starting nine were starters on our successful high school varsity. Those guys adjusted right into BBCOR and even set the all time school season record for hits, triples and doubles. I don't think swinging -5's and -8's the summer before hurt them, nor do I think they would have done better swinging -3 BBCOR that summer.

Do you think, beyond the training and preparation aspect of it, that the kids they were playing against were not in greater danger defending against 14 year olds using a -8 bat?  Isn't that the premise behind the decision to switch to BBCOR.  Some of these kids maybe need that crutch because they weigh less than 100 lbs soaking wet, but others I just don't see the need for it.  The extra feet of carry these kids are enjoying also imparts a greatly reduced reaction time for the infielders.

There are middle school teams requiring 12 year olds to swing BBCOR, I just don't see how it hasn't trickled into all organizations by 13-14u. 

The OP question is why use a high drop bat when you are  old (strong) enough to use BBCOR is the question,  I believe it is only to win ballgames.

Of course it is to be as competitive as the rule set allows.  You are handicapping your kid and his team.  VERY few batters walk to the plate with BBCOR in nonrequired BBCOR games.  If your coach isn't requiring BBCOR and the rules dont require BBCOR than your decission to send your kid to the plate is selfish.  I have asked a handful of parents, "Why is Johny using his BBCOR bat?  Did you know this tournament allows SL bats."  It is always the same answer, "We want HIM to get used to his BBCOR."  I never once heard a parent state they were concerned their son could hurt someone using a different bat. 

Success is so hard to find in this game and a lot of it has to do with your performance compared to your peers.  Success breeds confidence.  Playing with confidence is fun.  It's a game that is played for FUN.  So if success leads to fun than why wouldn't you give your son the legal tools needed to succeed?   

Because although not nearly as big as some of the kids he plays against (~130 lbs), my son is strong enough like most 14u players to swing a BBCOR bat.  Why would I need to give him a crutch he doesn't need?  Why do >150 lb kids that have gone partially through puberty, strong, need a -5 or a -8?  Only because they don't make nonBBCOR -3 anymore, to win games.

It's not a crutch if allowed within the rules. You wouldn't be giving him a crutch. If you consider that a crutch, then why not have him hit with wood in high school? Whether they need  it doesn't matter. They are allowed use of the bats under the rule set. Tiger Woods didn't need graphite clubs. However, bringing a knife to a gun fight will always put you at an unnecessary competitive disadvantage. Having said all of this, I know LL and probably BR/CR will be going to new bat performance rules.

Additionally (and I know we've been through this before) take note of the official statement that the NCAA made when announcing a move to BBCOR. Nowhere does it mention safety. The official reasons were about the proliferation of scoring. It was an attempt to hold scoring down. 

roothog66 posted:

It's not a crutch if allowed within the rules. You wouldn't be giving him a crutch. If you consider that a crutch, then why not have him hit with wood in high school? Whether they need  it doesn't matter. They are allowed use of the bats under the rule set. Tiger Woods didn't need graphite clubs. However, bringing a knife to a gun fight will always put you at an unnecessary competitive disadvantage. Having said all of this, I know LL and probably BR/CR will be going to new bat performance rules.

Additionally (and I know we've been through this before) take note of the official statement that the NCAA made when announcing a move to BBCOR. Nowhere does it mention safety. The official reasons were about the proliferation of scoring. It was an attempt to hold scoring down. 

It would be idiotic to say it was for safety; they would open themselves up to numerous lawsuits by stating they used unsafe bats.  Wood is not safer IMO than a BBCOR, the exit velocity is similar and they have a tendency to shatter.

Do you think everyone should use BBCOR (required) by rule?  Do you not think it matters at all and 14u kids should use any drop or performance ratio they want (there is no increased risk of injury)?

Climbing up on the soapbox...

This is a fascinating discussion.  On one hand you have proponents of allowing the players to use any legal bat.  These people are decried as egotists who only care about winning tournaments and not "correctly" developing players.  Then there are those who say, The only way to "correctly" prepare someone to play high school ball is by having them swing a drop 3 bat when they are in middle school. 

I have been around baseball for longer than some of you have been alive and I have never seen a baseball coach or parent that did not want what was best for their players/children.  "The best" is a matter of opinion and we have grown into a baseball nation where if you don't like an opinion you can find another team, another coach, private lessons, group lessons heck some people move their families to get what they believe is the "best" instruction.  We debate equipment, strategy, coaches motives, intent and attempt to further our world baseball view.

In the Dominican kids love baseball and on a trip there I saw kids in one of the batey's (Impoverished communities that work the sugar plantations) playing on any large flat patch of ground.  These fields had rocks, clumps of weeds, holes but they didn't care...they just want to play baseball.  They had smiles from ear to ear and loved the game and did not care about drop 2 or 3 or 5 or 8 because they were hitting with a piece of 2x2 from a church construction site hitting rolled up duct tape.  Next time back I took a few old baseballs and a couple of real bats (the first any of them had ever seen)...the first hit went further that any they had made with the 2x2 and flew into the thorns.  Outfielder never checked up ran headfirst into the thorns and came out with blood trickling from multiple cuts, the ball held high and smiling as cheers erupted from the others.  In the cities in the Dominican they have baseball cathedrals and practice 8 hours a day but out there the game is still a game,

Do I have an opinion?  Sure...do away with metal and have everyone use wood.  From the time they can pick up a bat on they are training to swing just like the pros (My apology to Easton, Marucci, DeMarini etc.) 

Love your kids, teach them to have fun and treasure the opportunity to play.  Enjoy the brief season when they  play this amazing game because it will be over in a blink.  Finally do what you believe will help them become the best people they can be.  In the end your job is not to create awesome baseball players but awesome people...

Climbing off the soapbox...flips bat...drops microphone...