Win/ Loss Pitching Decision

Player B. A is not eligible having not gone 4 innings (3 since it was a run rule shortened game).

Since you said the game went 5 innings, I'm assuming this was a high school game. Strictly by FED (high school) rules, Player B would get the win (rule listed at the end of this reply).

Part of the problem that I've always had with the rule regarding assigning pitching wins is that the high school scoring rules are seemingly based on Pro/OBR, which doesn't take into account the disparity in talent that can exist in high school (i.e., taking your best pitcher out when you get a big lead early in the game, so you have removed your starter not because he isn't effective, but instead because the other team simply isn't proving good enough to waste one of your better pitchers on...something that is very unlikely professional baseball).

I'm not really up to speed on NCAA scorekeeping, other than reading the rulebook, but NCAA actually DOES list a provision for games in which "By pre-arrangement, if three or more pitchers are to be used, the pitcher of record shall be considered the winning pitcher."

NCAA then further defines "pitcher of record" as: ...the one who is in the game at the time the winning team gains the lead, provided that the lead never is relinquished, or the one who is charged with the runs by which the opposing team takes the lead, provided that the lead never is relinquished."

This would seem to indicate that a starting pitcher CAN receive a win after pitching only 1 inning in a game played under NCAA rules, if his team is in the lead when he is replaced.


Anyway, the relevant rule is 9-6-6 in FED:

... Winning and losing pitchers are determined as follows:
a. If the starting pitcher has pitched the first four innings or more and his team is ahead when he is replaced and the team holds the lead for the remainder of the game, he shall be the winning pitcher.
b. If a game ends for whatever reason, having gone less than seven innings, then the starting pitcher shall have pitched three or more consecutive innings to be declared the winning pitcher. If the starting pitcher cannot be declared the winning pitcher, and more than one relief pitcher is used, the winning pitcher shall be determined using the following criteria...

Ok....so if I am reading this correctly: We had 3 pitchers in a 5-0 win. Pitcher A pitched 2 innings, Pitcher B pitched 2 innings, and Pitcher C pitched 3 innings. Pitcher B would have the win since he pitched in the 4th inning...right? Thank you...

quote:

Originally posted by maniacmommy:
Ok....so if I am reading this correctly: We had 3 pitchers in a 5-0 win. Pitcher A pitched 2 innings, Pitcher B pitched 2 innings, and Pitcher C pitched 3 innings. Pitcher B would have the win since he pitched in the 4th inning...right? Thank you...

NO! NO! NO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Read the whole rule. What was posted only pertained to the original post, not to all games with more than 1 relief pitcher.

Okay...I can only read what is here, and it doesn't look like the entire rule was posted. I ordered a rule book today. Can you answer my question? If not Pither B, then which pitcher gets the win? Pitcher A didn't go 4 innings. Another parent told me that in this scenario whoever pitches in the 4th inning gets the win. Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by maniacmommy:
Okay...I can only read what is here, and it doesn't look like the entire rule was posted. I ordered a rule book today. Can you answer my question? If not Pither B, then which pitcher gets the win? Pitcher A didn't go 4 innings. Another parent told me that in this scenario whoever pitches in the 4th inning gets the win. Thanks!

All levels are pretty much the same, but I’ll assume you mean HS. Assuming the starting pitcher is eliminated from the win, and in this case he has, then there are other criteria that comes into play. I’ll post the OBR rule since I don’t want to type the entire NFHS rule. They’re a bit different, but I’ve found that using the OBR rule almost always works.

As you read it, keep in mind effectiveness of the pitchers.

10.17 WINNING AND LOSING PITCHER
(a) The official scorer shall credit as the winning pitcher that pitcher whose team assumes a lead while such pitcher is in the game, or during the inning on offense in which such pitcher is removed from the game, and does not relinquish such lead, unless
(1) such pitcher is a starting pitcher and Rule 10.17(b) applies; or
(2) Rule 10.17(c) applies.
Rule 10.17(a) Comment: Whenever the score is tied, the game becomes a new contest insofar as the winning pitcher is concerned. Once the opposing team assumes the lead, all pitchers who have pitched up to that point and have been replaced are excluded from being credited with the victory. If the pitcher against whose pitching the opposing team gained the lead continues to pitch until his team regains the lead, which it holds to the finish of the game, that pitcher shall be the winning pitcher.
(b) If the pitcher whose team assumes a lead while such pitcher is in the game, or during the inning on offense in which such pitcher is removed from the game, and does not relinquish such lead, is a starting pitcher who has not completed
(1) five innings of a game that lasts six or more innings on defense, or
(2) four innings of a game that lasts five innings on defense, then the official scorer shall credit as the winning pitcher the relief pitcher, if there is only one relief pitcher, or the relief pitcher who, in the official scorer’s judgment was the most effective, if there is more than one relief pitcher.
Rule 10.17(b) Comment: It is the intent of Rule 10.17(b) that a relief pitcher pitch at least one complete inning or pitch when a crucial out is made, within the context of the game (including the score), in order to be credited as the winning pitcher. If the first relief pitcher pitches effectively, the official scorer should not presumptively credit that pitcher with the win, because the rule requires that the win be credited to the pitcher who was the most effective, and a subsequent relief pitcher may have been most effective. The official scorer, in determining which relief pitcher was the most effective, should consider the number of runs, earned runs and base runners given up by each relief pitcher and the context of the game at the time of each relief pitcher’s appearance. If two or more relief pitchers were similarly effective, the official scorer should give the presumption to the earlier pitcher as the winning pitcher.
(c) The official scorer shall not credit as the winning pitcher a relief pitcher who is ineffective in a brief appearance, when at least one succeeding relief pitcher pitches effectively in helping his team maintain its lead. In such a case, the official scorer shall credit as the winning pitcher the succeeding relief pitcher who was most effective, in the judgment of the official scorer.
Rule 10.17(c) Comment: The official scorer generally should, but is not required to, consider the appearance of a relief pitcher to be ineffective and brief if such relief pitcher pitches less than one inning and allows two or more earned runs to score (even if such runs are charged to a previous pitcher). Rule 10.17(b) Comment provides guidance on choosing the winning pitcher from among several succeeding relief pitchers.
(d) A losing pitcher is a pitcher who is responsible for the run that gives the winning team a lead that the winning team does not relinquish.
Rule 10.17(d) Comment: Whenever the score is tied, the game becomes a new contest insofar as the losing pitcher is concerned.

Good grief. Could they possibly make this any more complicated????
Thank you very much, I appreciate your answer.

Try this:

The winning pitcher is who is in the game when the team takes the lead for good EXCEPT if it is the Starting pitcher who must go at least 4 innings in High School.

The exception is a blowout or rain shortened game then the starter must pitch 3 innings.

do not worry about it----hs stats have no weight

luv baseball: THANK YOU! That same thing was told to me by a few people and it's a good general rule to go by. TRhit: I wish I could not worry about it....but I have PARENTS who throw fits if I don't give their kid the "credit" they deserve! So glad my son plays 1st base and doesn't pitch. But I really do want to be as accurate as possible and follow the rules. Thanks everyone! Appreciate it.

quote:

Originally posted by maniacmommy:
luv baseball: THANK YOU! That same thing was told to me by a few people and it's a good general rule to go by. TRhit: I wish I could not worry about it....but I have PARENTS who throw fits if I don't give their kid the "credit" they deserve! So glad my son plays 1st base and doesn't pitch. But I really do want to be as accurate as possible and follow the rules. Thanks everyone! Appreciate it.

There’s usually only gonna be 1 or 2 games during any given season where you’ve actually gonna need to decide which of the relievers had the “best” performance, but it does happen. That’s why, even as long as I’ve been doing this, whenever I have any question about anything like this, I just open the book and step through it one line at a time until it gives me the answer.

As for worrying about it, don’t let people demean what you do or diminish its importance. All you’re trying to do is a good job, rather than just throwing some BS numbers up there that really are meaningless. You’ll usually find that folks who disparage you for that, have kids they think are great, but can’t support with numbers, can’t figure out why other kids who aren’t as good have better numbers than theirs, or who simply don’t have the capacity to use number to analyze anything about the game.

I’ve found that the easiest way to keep the parents from having conniptions, is to invite them to find errors in the numbers so I can get them corrected. Then, when they do that, it gives me a chance to communicate with them one on one and either explain to them why I did what I did, using the scoring rules, or thank them for pointing out where I’d made an error, which happens to everyone.

IOW, I try to make them part of the solution rather than the problem. I was a parent of an athlete once myself, and I understand how the emotions can run high when it comes to parents and their kids. Its only of the last chances parents get to be proud of their kids for something they’re directly connected with and able to participate in.

And to those who constantly claim the uselessness of the numbers, I don’t care what they think! They don’t have to look at them if they think they’re so useless. But I suspect that when their kid does something special, they can quote every number having anything to do with it, and they make sure the 1st thing they look at in the paper the next day, is the line score in the sports pages!

My hat’s off to you. You’re doing the coach, the team, and the parents a service.

Stats4Gnats ~ I appreciated your comments, thank you! For the most part, we have great parents. Several of us have been watching our boys since Little League. They all really love that I send out stats after each game, because it IS fun to see improvement and how your kid is doing, as well as the team as a whole. Most of them really appreciate that I keep score. Only a few of them even understand the complexities of scorekeeping - I sure didn't comprehend it as well back when I started doing this 5 years ago! (Thank GOD for GameChanger. I used to calculate the stats using an Excel spreadsheet.) I am most certainly NOT perfect and have made a few mistakes that a few of the knowledgeable dad's have politely pointed out to me and I am grateful for that! I do not claim to be the stat-queen by any means, and it has been really fun learning more about the game via scorekeeping. So again - thank you for your encouraging words!

maniacmommy,

Check your PMs.

Stats4Gnats - I opened ur msg and now I can't find it.. did not save the document you attached! Can you re-send or tell me where the messages go after you open them? Thx

quote:

Originally posted by djturner7:
If you know the answer please let me know.....I have everyone telling me what they think....I want to know facts.
Team A is on the road playing team B. Team A scores 10 runs the top of 1st inning. Team A pitches player A for 1 inning (10-0 at end of 1st). Team A scores another 5 runs in the top of 2nd. Team A then pitches player B for the next 4 inng. Game went 5 inng. Who gets the win....player A (1 inng.) or player B (4 inng.)

Interesting question. My son's team had a similar situation the other night. We were the home team. Pitcher A pitches for 2 innings. Coach puts in reliever #1 in the 3rd as we were up by 10 after 2 innings scoring 9 runs in the 1st. In the 4th inning coach puts in reliever #2 for the final two innings (4th/5th). Both relievers were effective and did not give up any runs. Coach was just getting the relievers some game time since the opposing team was weak.

Who gets the win? I asked one of the other parents and he said the starting pitcher, but reading the above posts, I'm not so sure.

quote:

Originally posted by FoxDad:
Interesting question. My son's team had a similar situation the other night. We were the home team. Pitcher A pitches for 2 innings. Coach puts in reliever #1 in the 3rd as we were up by 10 after 2 innings scoring 9 runs in the 1st. In the 4th inning coach puts in reliever #2 for the final two innings (4th/5th). Both relievers were effective and did not give up any runs. Coach was just getting the relievers some game time since the opposing team was weak.

Who gets the win? I asked one of the other parents and he said the starting pitcher, but reading the above posts, I'm not so sure.

Did you read the rule that got posted?

Assuming it was a shortened HS game, the starter didn’t have enough time to get the win, so throw him and what he did out. Then you compare pitcher 2 and pitcher 3, batter by batter if necessary, and the one who did the best gets the win.

The trouble is, that will often cause problems because it involves the scorer’s judgment, and that means it can be subjective. Sometimes it obvious, where one pitcher gave up 4 hits and walked 2, and the other only gave up 2 IF hits. So even though neither pitcher may have given up a run, the one who only gave up the 2 hits was obviously more effective, to me.

But, maybe the kid that gave up the hits and walks got 5 K’s in his 2 innings, and the other kid didn’t get any. People who are impressed by a lot of K’s may feel that pitcher was the most effective because he was overpowering hitters.

The best thing to do, is to just leave the SK alone, unless there’s proof positive they broke a scoring rule, like having given the starting pitcher the win when he only threw 2 innings. Other than that, live with it, the same way you have to live with an umpire’s judgment call. While its really nice to try to be as accurate as possible, it ain’t the end of the world one way or the other, and I haven’t seen a lot of scorers who did a bad job on purpose.

IMO if you have a shutout with three pitchers each working two innings and you scored 9 in the first then I give the W to the 1st reliever.

After all the goal of the pitcher is to get bagels and if everyone had two then they were equally effective in the most important area.

But as Stats says honest people can disagree on this.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
IMO if you have a shutout with three pitchers each working two innings and you scored 9 in the first then I give the W to the 1st reliever.

After all the goal of the pitcher is to get bagels and if everyone had two then they were equally effective in the most important area.

But as Stats says honest people can disagree on this.

We had a similar situation in my son's last HS game on Wednesday night. We were not in playoff contention, so coach allowed all 20 players to play, including 4 pitchers. My son started, went two, left with a 2-1 lead, next guy came in and threw two, next guy threw two and the closer threw one. It was a 3-1 final, I gave the win to the second kid and a save to the last kid. Seemed like a no brainer to me...

I scored a game last night that made me think of this thread (and of you, Stats).

Weird, long game - almost 3 hours to play 7 innings, and the pitchers for both games combined to throw 311 pitches and there were over 45 baserunners. Needless to say, not a well-pitched ballgame. On our side, it was the result of coming off a tournament weekend, with none of our top four pitchers available, and "Johnny Wholestaff" needing to get the job done for us (which they did, barely, only in the sense that we got the "W"); can't speak for the other side.

Anyway, our starting pitcher went 3 innings. He was mostly ineffective, giving up 5 hits and 6 walks, BUT he got out of each inning leaving the bases loaded, only gave up two runs, and left with an 11-2 lead. Seems like a situation where the next pitcher should get the win, right?

Well, the next kid throw 2-1/3, but gives back 6 runs (4 earned), while giving up 6 hits and walking 3. Quite a bit more ineffective than the starter (who was pulled for a high pitch count).

The third pitcher threw 2/3 of an inning, allowed 2 inherited runners to score and gave up a 3rd run (earned) that was charged to him. Also not effective.

The last pitcher was effective, but only pitched the 7th in a game that was now a 2-run game. Got a K, then gave up a hit before ending it with a DP ball.

It is obvious to me that the most effective pitcher there was the kid who closed, but honestly I felt more comfortable giving him the save - that's what it felt like he did. Of the others, in essentially a planned "Johnny Wholestaff" situation where the plan was to use multiple pitchers and not necessarily to get yor starter past 4 IP to qualify for the decision, the starter was the most effective (even though....eeeewwww).

I decided that the NCAA rule that was quoted above was most germane to this situation, and therefore awarded the starter the "W" even though he didn't go the requisite 4 IP.

Anybody think I am way off base (I can still change it)? Comments?

Oh...my....goodness! All I could think of as I read this was, "Thank GOD it wasn't ME scoring that game!!" You laid out a very logical arguement and I agree with your assesment. We'll see how other's respond... =)

This is one of those "Heck if I know" calls.
The comment to 10.17 (b) says: that a relief pitcher pitch at least one complete inning or pitch when a crucial out is made, within the context of the game (including the score), in order to be credited as the winning pitcher. If the first relief pitcher pitches effectively, the official
scorer should not presumptively credit that pitcher with the win, because the rule requires that the win be credited to the pitcher who was the most effective, and a subsequent relief pitcher may have been most effective. The official scorer, in determining which relief pitcher was the most effective, should consider the number of runs, earned runs and base runners given up by each relief pitcher and the context of the game at the time of each relief pitcher’s appearance. If two or more relief pitchers were similarly effective, the official scorer should give the presumption to the earlier pitcher as the winning pitcher.

But you knew that already

If this were a HS game played under the HS rules, I would give the W to the second pitcher, as the starter didn't qualify. He wasn't outstanding, but neither was anyone else. You could make a 'weak' argument that the second kid came in and did the job for 2 1/3 innings. He pitched to contact, gave up some runs but basically pitched like a middle reliever with a big lead.

If we were in the summer ball, weren't playing under a rule set, knowing we were going to throw a bunch of them, I would give the win to the starter as well.

If I was the official scorer on a club team playing summer ball, I'd tell both kids they won (if they asked). Bottom line in one of these team wins, if the team wins, the team wins. The WP doesn't really matter.

The last kid gets a save in any scenario.

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:
…The last kid gets a save in any scenario.

Unless he’s given the win. ROFL!

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:

quote:

…The last kid gets a save in any scenario.

Unless he’s given the win. ROFL!

LOL! Exactly.... To me, it came down to either the first or the last kid, though JMoff's comment about the second kid pitching like a long reliever with a big lead is supposed to did give me pause to consider an aspect of this I hadn't before.

I also liked the advice to tell BOTH kids they got the W...and I think I'll probably just not say ANYTHING unless somebody brings it up!

quote:

Originally posted by EdgarFan:

I also liked the advice to tell BOTH kids they got the W...and I think I'll probably just not say ANYTHING unless somebody brings it up!

I was only half kidding about telling both they won (or not telling either one).

Late in tournaments where teams are running out of pitching or the Monday league game after a tournament, you have a bunch of tired arms trying to cobble it togther. Anything I can do to prevent a kid from throwing "one more so I get the win" is worth it (IMHO).

Not meaning to hijack but.. say a relief pitcher enters following another reliever, game tied but runners on 1st & 2nd, issues a bb then a passed ball to end the game, who gets the loss, reliever #1 or #2 ?

Reliever 1 takes the "L". Any runners that reached base off of him and score are charged to his record. Since the winning run was on base against him and scored he has the run ans loss charged to him. Weather it is earned or not depends on how the run scored. Because the run scored on a passed ball it would be unearned.