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Just thought I'd share some good news and offer perhaps a little encouragement to anyone who is struggling with the Yips.  My son had nearly ended his career due to the Yips but has gotten through it albeit not without tremendous emotional pain.  Much of it was completely unnecessary.  

One of several observations I made while he struggled with it is how many people in baseball have it from time to time.  Nearly every teammate or former player who talked to him had beaten it but yet we mostly hear about the negative outcomes as you search for a cure.  Given that it is so commonplace in baseball, I'm puzzled why coaches at the collegiate and professional levels are more in tune with helping the player get through it.  

That said, anyone who may be struggling with this should know that the Yips are very beatable.  Hearing the number of success stories along with help from friends in specific drills was the key.  Feel free to reach out if you know someone struggling with this.  If we can help someone else, it would be a pleasure to give back as so many helped my son.  

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Jim T. posted:

Just thought I'd share some good news and offer perhaps a little encouragement to anyone who is struggling with the Yips.  My son had nearly ended his career due to the Yips but has gotten through it albeit not without tremendous emotional pain.  Much of it was completely unnecessary.  

One of several observations I made while he struggled with it is how many people in baseball have it from time to time.  Nearly every teammate or former player who talked to him had beaten it but yet we mostly hear about the negative outcomes as you search for a cure.  Given that it is so commonplace in baseball, I'm puzzled why coaches at the collegiate and professional levels are more in tune with helping the player get through it.  

That said, anyone who may be struggling with this should know that the Yips are very beatable.  Hearing the number of success stories along with help from friends in specific drills was the key.  Feel free to reach out if you know someone struggling with this.  If we can help someone else, it would be a pleasure to give back as so many helped my son.  

Please enlighten us.  Never know when we'll need some help. 

Jim T. posted:

Just thought I'd share some good news and offer perhaps a little encouragement to anyone who is struggling with the Yips.  My son had nearly ended his career due to the Yips but has gotten through it albeit not without tremendous emotional pain.  Much of it was completely unnecessary.  

One of several observations I made while he struggled with it is how many people in baseball have it from time to time.  Nearly every teammate or former player who talked to him had beaten it but yet we mostly hear about the negative outcomes as you search for a cure.  Given that it is so commonplace in baseball, I'm puzzled why coaches at the collegiate and professional levels are more in tune with helping the player get through it.  

That said, anyone who may be struggling with this should know that the Yips are very beatable.  Hearing the number of success stories along with help from friends in specific drills was the key.  Feel free to reach out if you know someone struggling with this.  If we can help someone else, it would be a pleasure to give back as so many helped my son.  

Most of the time a true case of yips in baseball proceeds an injury. It usually takes a well trained coach to recognize symptoms, then he tries to figure out the cause. In many cases it gets out of control so then counseling prescribed.  

JMO

TPM posted:
Jim T. posted:

Just thought I'd share some good news and offer perhaps a little encouragement to anyone who is struggling with the Yips.  My son had nearly ended his career due to the Yips but has gotten through it albeit not without tremendous emotional pain.  Much of it was completely unnecessary.  

One of several observations I made while he struggled with it is how many people in baseball have it from time to time.  Nearly every teammate or former player who talked to him had beaten it but yet we mostly hear about the negative outcomes as you search for a cure.  Given that it is so commonplace in baseball, I'm puzzled why coaches at the collegiate and professional levels are more in tune with helping the player get through it.  

That said, anyone who may be struggling with this should know that the Yips are very beatable.  Hearing the number of success stories along with help from friends in specific drills was the key.  Feel free to reach out if you know someone struggling with this.  If we can help someone else, it would be a pleasure to give back as so many helped my son.  

Most of the time a true case of yips in baseball proceeds an injury. It usually takes a well trained coach to recognize symptoms, then he tries to figure out the cause. In many cases it gets out of control so then counseling prescribed.  

JMO

I disagree with the use of the term "most of the time".  There are triggers that can include an injury but there's almost always underlying stress or pressures that eventually manifests itself into the Yips.  In every case or story we've encountered, not a single one was proceeded by an injury. 

Jim T. posted:
TPM posted:
Jim T. posted:

Just thought I'd share some good news and offer perhaps a little encouragement to anyone who is struggling with the Yips.  My son had nearly ended his career due to the Yips but has gotten through it albeit not without tremendous emotional pain.  Much of it was completely unnecessary.  

One of several observations I made while he struggled with it is how many people in baseball have it from time to time.  Nearly every teammate or former player who talked to him had beaten it but yet we mostly hear about the negative outcomes as you search for a cure.  Given that it is so commonplace in baseball, I'm puzzled why coaches at the collegiate and professional levels are more in tune with helping the player get through it.  

That said, anyone who may be struggling with this should know that the Yips are very beatable.  Hearing the number of success stories along with help from friends in specific drills was the key.  Feel free to reach out if you know someone struggling with this.  If we can help someone else, it would be a pleasure to give back as so many helped my son.  

Most of the time a true case of yips in baseball proceeds an injury. It usually takes a well trained coach to recognize symptoms, then he tries to figure out the cause. In many cases it gets out of control so then counseling prescribed.  

JMO

I disagree with the use of the term "most of the time".  There are triggers that can include an injury but there's almost always underlying stress or pressures that eventually manifests itself into the Yips.  In every case or story we've encountered, not a single one was proceeded by an injury. 

How many have you encountered. True yips in any sport is usually incurable, perhaps they may have just hit a slump.

I am still going with the injury theory, I did mean for pitchers.

TPM posted:
Jim T. posted:
TPM posted:
Jim T. posted:

Just thought I'd share some good news and offer perhaps a little encouragement to anyone who is struggling with the Yips.  My son had nearly ended his career due to the Yips but has gotten through it albeit not without tremendous emotional pain.  Much of it was completely unnecessary.  

One of several observations I made while he struggled with it is how many people in baseball have it from time to time.  Nearly every teammate or former player who talked to him had beaten it but yet we mostly hear about the negative outcomes as you search for a cure.  Given that it is so commonplace in baseball, I'm puzzled why coaches at the collegiate and professional levels are more in tune with helping the player get through it.  

That said, anyone who may be struggling with this should know that the Yips are very beatable.  Hearing the number of success stories along with help from friends in specific drills was the key.  Feel free to reach out if you know someone struggling with this.  If we can help someone else, it would be a pleasure to give back as so many helped my son.  

Most of the time a true case of yips in baseball proceeds an injury. It usually takes a well trained coach to recognize symptoms, then he tries to figure out the cause. In many cases it gets out of control so then counseling prescribed.  

JMO

I disagree with the use of the term "most of the time".  There are triggers that can include an injury but there's almost always underlying stress or pressures that eventually manifests itself into the Yips.  In every case or story we've encountered, not a single one was proceeded by an injury. 

How many have you encountered. True yips in any sport is usually incurable, perhaps they may have just hit a slump.

I am still going with the injury theory, I did mean for pitchers.

Then your definition of "True Yips" are the Yips which have not been successfully addressed.  You are old school.  I can tell you my friend is a MLB rehab coach and it's something he sees everyday.  Too many unfortunate souls get caught up believing nonsense like you stated.  True Yips or whatever you call are formed in your imagination and they can indeed be cured.  The coach who helped my son also helped dozens and dozens of players.  You don't know what you're talking about and you shouldn't tell people it's "incurable".  I doubt you'll accept your wrong though.  I've seen plenty of your posts to know that.  

Right. You seem to really have a chip on your shoulder, there was no reason to be nasty, please state where I addressed you in that way. 

So you live in Florida, is your MLB trainer down this way, like to speak to him. Get the opinion straight from him. The reason I say this is because at one point when son was getting over surgery, he had issues and thought he had the Yips. His team had him discuss with sports psych, and it was not the Yips but a slump ( you know all players go into slumps and right away someone says it's the yips). A lot of times an injury plays with your head, causes issues.

That's not necessarily the yips. Sorry if that's too old school for ya.

 

My reaction was to your statement that "True yips in any sport is usually incurable".  People come to the website often seeking help or counsel.  Telling parents or young players that what they are going through is "incurable" is nonsense.  It's simply not true.  That's what I'm referring to as being old school.  

Yips is a vague word that just describes an inability to perform certain activities in certain sports.  There are many theories on why it occurs.  

You didnt come here to help parents of young players to learn, you only stated your sons yips were gone. No background on what occurred, how it was treated, or what may have been a factor in cause. You have not come forward with any educational information. Maybe thats why people dont know much about it. But you want us to pass the word on it that its beatable. How?  

So please dont call me out,  I would tell everyone that is not familiar with the term to do their homework.  

There are different theories in what causes this condition and how to treat it. Some claim their isnt such a thing but rather factors such as severe fatigue. Mike Reinold  had a theory it was related to TOS. Psychologists have different theories on how to treat, as do coaches. 

Some will agree it is limited to only college and professional players.

Anyway, glad your son is better, however be careful how you use the word old school when someone gives their opinion.

JMO

 

 

 

Last edited by TPM
Jim T. posted:

Just thought I'd share some good news and offer perhaps a little encouragement to anyone who is struggling with the Yips.  My son had nearly ended his career due to the Yips but has gotten through it albeit not without tremendous emotional pain.  Much of it was completely unnecessary.  

One of several observations I made while he struggled with it is how many people in baseball have it from time to time.  Nearly every teammate or former player who talked to him had beaten it but yet we mostly hear about the negative outcomes as you search for a cure.  Given that it is so commonplace in baseball, I'm puzzled why coaches at the collegiate and professional levels are more in tune with helping the player get through it.  

That said, anyone who may be struggling with this should know that the Yips are very beatable.  Hearing the number of success stories along with help from friends in specific drills was the key.  Feel free to reach out if you know someone struggling with this.  If we can help someone else, it would be a pleasure to give back as so many helped my son.  

Thank you for sharing your story.

How can i contact you to get some more information?  

Marie posted:
Jim T. posted:

Just thought I'd share some good news and offer perhaps a little encouragement to anyone who is struggling with the Yips.  My son had nearly ended his career due to the Yips but has gotten through it albeit not without tremendous emotional pain.  Much of it was completely unnecessary.  

One of several observations I made while he struggled with it is how many people in baseball have it from time to time.  Nearly every teammate or former player who talked to him had beaten it but yet we mostly hear about the negative outcomes as you search for a cure.  Given that it is so commonplace in baseball, I'm puzzled why coaches at the collegiate and professional levels are more in tune with helping the player get through it.  

That said, anyone who may be struggling with this should know that the Yips are very beatable.  Hearing the number of success stories along with help from friends in specific drills was the key.  Feel free to reach out if you know someone struggling with this.  If we can help someone else, it would be a pleasure to give back as so many helped my son.  

Thank you for sharing your story.

How can i contact you to get some more information?  

PM me and I'll provide you with my number

@Nikki posted:

My son is struggling with this.  He is a catcher.  You mention success stories and specific drills.  I would love to hear about those.

How old is your son? My son is a 2023 C and was the starting catcher on varsity. He developed the yips pretty bad a week before the season started. At first he couldn't throw the ball anywhere close to his target, then it improved to only the pitcher. We tried just about everything you could ever imagine. He still struggles, but has made adjustments to get the ball back consistently. It is the strangest thing. He can throw to bases with no problems. He can throw a bucket of balls to me on the mound with no issues. He's even doing it now with his eyes closed to get the feel of the muscle memory. As soon as you put another player there though, he loses control. He can still pitch and hit his spots with ease. 

You'd be amazed at how common this is. Watch some college and MLB games and you'll see catchers doing a bunch of different routines or awkward looking throws. We run into a lot of college and pro catchers with my son's hitting coach. Just about all of them have funny stories about the yips at some point in their career. 

Some things we've done: sports psychologist, a series of warm up drills (backspin drill, facing target with feet planted, rocker drills, etc), plays catch with me a ton. 

 

There is usually a "common denominator"!

One year on our travel team one our 3 catchers [father a former Double A Minor League catcher] had this problem.

This young 17 year old catcher, strong arm, average runner and hitter, hard worker, however he had difficulty throwing the "warm up" pitches back to the pitcher.

Father is a "good friend" - I assign the father to left field seats, not behind home plate. Also the catcher wore "contacts" and I could not catch him under the lights. He became a one inning relief pitcher and was effective. I told him during his warm ups to throw the ball high up on the backstop fence.

He did not play College baseball, but is now an International Rugby player.

"Keep the faith"

Bob

I don't have drills but I do have a success story. A former teammate of my son's developed the yips playing 3B in HS. He was having a terrible time throwing to first base.  His coach moved him to the OF, where he did fine.  His college coach moved him to a different IF position, where he did so well that he was drafted this year - to play at his original position.

My son, also a catcher, developed yips the summer going into HS.  He lost the feel of throwing the ball back to the pitcher, everything else was fine.  Who knows what caused it - maybe nothing, maybe pressure from his travel coach or his high-expectations dad, or pressure on himself, who knows.  He tried to work through it, lobbing the ball back to the pitcher, but for that summer the game became no fun, something he dreaded.  

Around this time he complained about shoulder tightness and elbow soreness.  In retrospect I should have shut him down.  He was going through a massive growth spurt and grew 5-6" in a year.  Everything in his body was changing weekly it seemed.  He ended up fracturing his medial epicondyle and having shoulder tendonitis. I think it was TPM who said that yips are often the result of injury.  I think she was probably right.

A lot of things changed after this.  I told him it was ok if he didn't want to play anymore. He needed to know I was ok with this.  He took a break from baseball and played HS football in the fall.  He hit the weight room.  I backed off and transformed into a supportive dad.  He kind of put baseball in perspective and realized there were other things.

The following season he decided to play.  He played with a chip on his shoulder, like he had something to prove yet nothing to lose.  The yips were there in the mental sense (i.e., the worry), but he was able to throw.  He was more conscious in bullpens to practice throwing the ball back the same way he would in a game.  When things got shakey, he changed his arm slot or grip to mix things up.  He maintained his PT stretching and warmup routines.  Maybe most importantly, he was able to talk about it (with me, teammates, his HS coach).  He had his "oh no, is it coming back" moments, but they faded over time.  Like a lot of things, once you survive something traumatic  (and getting yips during WWBA or USA Baseball is traumatic!) it isn't as traumatic the next time you face it.

He's playing in college now.  Not to brag, but he's tearing it up.  He still seeks out the guy who has trouble throwing and offers suggestions - it seems every team has someone, and he can see it no matter how they try to hide it.

How old is your son? My son is a 2023 C and was the starting catcher on varsity. He developed the yips pretty bad a week before the season started. At first he couldn't throw the ball anywhere close to his target, then it improved to only the pitcher. We tried just about everything you could ever imagine. He still struggles, but has made adjustments to get the ball back consistently. It is the strangest thing. He can throw to bases with no problems. He can throw a bucket of balls to me on the mound with no issues. He's even doing it now with his eyes closed to get the feel of the muscle memory. As soon as you put another player there though, he loses control. He can still pitch and hit his spots with ease. 

You'd be amazed at how common this is. Watch some college and MLB games and you'll see catchers doing a bunch of different routines or awkward looking throws. We run into a lot of college and pro catchers with my son's hitting coach. Just about all of them have funny stories about the yips at some point in their career. 

Some things we've done: sports psychologist, a series of warm up drills (backspin drill, facing target with feet planted, rocker drills, etc), plays catch with me a ton. 

 

My son is a 2024 Catcher.  This started a couple of weeks ago with a few overthrows to first and has spiraled into all of his throws.  He can get it there if he lobs it, but has lost the ability to throw hard and accurate.  Throwing from his knees helps.  How did the sports psychologist work out?  I have heard positives and negatives on that--I do not mind spending the money--but many of the posts say that didn't help.  I think we will try the drills first.

I am a mom with no athletic ability--so can you please describe the drills to me (backspin drill, facing target with feet planted, rocker drills).  Thanks!

@Nikki posted:

My son is a 2024 Catcher.  This started a couple of weeks ago with a few overthrows to first and has spiraled into all of his throws.  He can get it there if he lobs it, but has lost the ability to throw hard and accurate.  Throwing from his knees helps.  How did the sports psychologist work out?  I have heard positives and negatives on that--I do not mind spending the money--but many of the posts say that didn't help.  I think we will try the drills first.

I am a mom with no athletic ability--so can you please describe the drills to me (backspin drill, facing target with feet planted, rocker drills).  Thanks!

The throws to first is the same thing that got my son off track. The way my son explains it is he can't feel the ball in his hand when it's acting up. Having mental tools and different drills to get him back on track (at least partially) will be helpful. 

Honestly, the psychologist was kind of a waste. I think it helped from a mental standpoint as it gave him someone to talk to, but it didn't help with the results. As others have mentioned, talking about it openly with his team and coaches will help the most from a mental standpoint. It's a weird thing where people avoid talking about it, yet everyone can see what's happening. Make sure he knows it is VERY common. One of the guys my son hit with a few weeks ago said he started cracking jokes about it and his team loosened up and relieved stress on everyone. He said on a drop third to end the game he rolled the ball to first to get the out!

Here is the backspin drill. This will help him get the feel for releasing the ball out front again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP7sXH8z_Sc

Can't find a link/video for this drill, but he faces the target and gets in an athletic position. Then basically turns his torso to make a regular throw while keeping his feet planted. He can flex his knees and hips as needed. The key here for my son is to get his glove hand fully extended to the target to make sure his shoulders get lined up properly.

Rocker drill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs8NhAWrOig

Another thing that helped him get the feel to be able to play catch with me again (it was really bad, I mean he wouldn't have been able to hit water if he fell out of a boat) was throwing with a 3 oz ball. He started very slow with it just to get the feel for the ball in his hand again. Then we switched to a regular ball and it was instant success. I'll never forget the smile on his face when he let it rip and right to me. 

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions about this. It is painful as a parent to watch your kid agonize over a game they love to play. This has been going on with my son for 4 months. This weekend he caught 2 games, threw out 3 runners, made some great throws to 1st, and got all but one throw back to the pitcher. 

 

@Smitty28 posted:

My son, also a catcher, developed yips the summer going into HS.  He lost the feel of throwing the ball back to the pitcher, everything else was fine.  Who knows what caused it - maybe nothing, maybe pressure from his travel coach or his high-expectations dad, or pressure on himself, who knows.  He tried to work through it, lobbing the ball back to the pitcher, but for that summer the game became no fun, something he dreaded.  

Around this time he complained about shoulder tightness and elbow soreness.  In retrospect I should have shut him down.  He was going through a massive growth spurt and grew 5-6" in a year.  Everything in his body was changing weekly it seemed.  He ended up fracturing his medial epicondyle and having shoulder tendonitis. I think it was TPM who said that yips are often the result of injury.  I think she was probably right.

A lot of things changed after this.  I told him it was ok if he didn't want to play anymore. He needed to know I was ok with this.  He took a break from baseball and played HS football in the fall.  He hit the weight room.  I backed off and transformed into a supportive dad.  He kind of put baseball in perspective and realized there were other things.

The following season he decided to play.  He played with a chip on his shoulder, like he had something to prove yet nothing to lose.  The yips were there in the mental sense (i.e., the worry), but he was able to throw.  He was more conscious in bullpens to practice throwing the ball back the same way he would in a game.  When things got shakey, he changed his arm slot or grip to mix things up.  He maintained his PT stretching and warmup routines.  Maybe most importantly, he was able to talk about it (with me, teammates, his HS coach).  He had his "oh no, is it coming back" moments, but they faded over time.  Like a lot of things, once you survive something traumatic  (and getting yips during WWBA or USA Baseball is traumatic!) it isn't as traumatic the next time you face it.

He's playing in college now.  Not to brag, but he's tearing it up.  He still seeks out the guy who has trouble throwing and offers suggestions - it seems every team has someone, and he can see it no matter how they try to hide it.

Great to hear that your son overcame this, is playing in college and most of all that he is tearing it up!  It is awesome that he is helping others who are going through it because in the moment it feels huge and potentially baseball-ending.  I am also glad to hear that the "Oh no it is coming back" is fading.   

@Nikki, I've never heard of a single solution that worked for lots of people, but I always thought this was an interesting approach.

http://community.hsbaseballweb...14#29875661668703214

I will say that my son has not hidden this from his team or coach.  At this point, the whole organization knows because my son was (or should I say still is) a star and the change has been dramatic.  I do need him to quit playing it safe though and go for it!

 

The throws to first is the same thing that got my son off track. The way my son explains it is he can't feel the ball in his hand when it's acting up. Having mental tools and different drills to get him back on track (at least partially) will be helpful. 

Honestly, the psychologist was kind of a waste. I think it helped from a mental standpoint as it gave him someone to talk to, but it didn't help with the results. As others have mentioned, talking about it openly with his team and coaches will help the most from a mental standpoint. It's a weird thing where people avoid talking about it, yet everyone can see what's happening. Make sure he knows it is VERY common. One of the guys my son hit with a few weeks ago said he started cracking jokes about it and his team loosened up and relieved stress on everyone. He said on a drop third to end the game he rolled the ball to first to get the out!

Here is the backspin drill. This will help him get the feel for releasing the ball out front again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP7sXH8z_Sc

Can't find a link/video for this drill, but he faces the target and gets in an athletic position. Then basically turns his torso to make a regular throw while keeping his feet planted. He can flex his knees and hips as needed. The key here for my son is to get his glove hand fully extended to the target to make sure his shoulders get lined up properly.

Rocker drill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs8NhAWrOig

Another thing that helped him get the feel to be able to play catch with me again (it was really bad, I mean he wouldn't have been able to hit water if he fell out of a boat) was throwing with a 3 oz ball. He started very slow with it just to get the feel for the ball in his hand again. Then we switched to a regular ball and it was instant success. I'll never forget the smile on his face when he let it rip and right to me. 

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions about this. It is painful as a parent to watch your kid agonize over a game they love to play. This has been going on with my son for 4 months. This weekend he caught 2 games, threw out 3 runners, made some great throws to 1st, and got all but one throw back to the pitcher. 

 

I am so glad to hear of your sons success.  It sounds like he has come a long way.   I will definitely PM you with questions along the way in this.  It is nice to hear from someone who has been through it successfully and gets how hard it is to watch.  

Personally, I’m not convinced that the yips are always (or even usually) “mental”. Seems like most people jump to that conclusion. I’ve read countless yips stories, and very often the story begins with an injury.

Think about how physiologically complex the act of throwing a baseball is. A good reminder is when you watch gifted athletes from other sports throw out a first pitch. Many look absolutely ridiculous. Those people don't have "mental blocks", their bodies don't have the imprinted muscle memory that allows a smooth throw. IMO, an injury could be the trigger that disrupts that complex system in the first place.

Interesting link. The one thing the psychologist mentioned that was useful was one part of the brain was preventing the other part from working correctly. If you can distract your brain and let your movement take over you are fine. Sounds similar to the brain spotting. 

Distracting the brain does make sense.  He definitely throws better when he is not trying to throw or has to throw fast without time to think (his throws to make an out are better than throwing to the pitcher or throwing to 3rd after a strike out--throws to 3rd look comical).  However, his throws to make outs used to be bullets and now they are weak.  Last night he threw hard to his dad for the first time in weeks--came in and said--I think it is over--I'm working out of it.  It is certainly our first sign of hard throws in a while--but throwing in the yard does not have the pressure of the game--so we will see.  

Personally, I’m not convinced that the yips are always (or even usually) “mental”. Seems like most people jump to that conclusion. I’ve read countless yips stories, and very often the story begins with an injury.

Think about how physiologically complex the act of throwing a baseball is. A good reminder is when you watch gifted athletes from other sports throw out a first pitch. Many look absolutely ridiculous. Those people don't have "mental blocks", their bodies don't have the imprinted muscle memory that allows a smooth throw. IMO, an injury could be the trigger that disrupts that complex system in the first place.

I agree.  I have been researching the subject and here is what I have so far:

It can be an injury, sudden growth, mechanical, or mental.  The injury, growth or mechanical can turn mental though if it goes on long enough.

If you simply google the yips--then the primary hits that you get are from Sports Psychologists, all who claim it is totally mental and cannot be fixed without addressing the mental issue.  I do think there may be some value in some of their techniques for overall maximizing your performance in any high pressure sport, but the yips are definitely not a one size fits all situation--and none of these guys actually have a cure--they simply use their anxiety-reducing techniques to try to help the person work their way out of it.  I also believe that the longer the yips go on, the more likely that the mental aspect is developed--the longer you do not throw well--the stronger that you believe that you can't.  That is why we are trying to play this as low-key as possible.  I have read that many try to hid it or not admit it since it is kind of taboo in baseball--that didn't happen for us--the difference in his throwing is huge--for him to throw a rainbow that far off target--is weird--for him to repeatedly do it--unheard of--everyone was shocked--everyone knows--that part has turned out to be a blessing.  His team has been awesome.  

My thoughts on how to address this at the onset:

1) Make sure the kid knows how common it is and unlike what the internet states--most kids work out of it--the career-ending stories really are the exceptions not the rule.  If at all possible, admit it right off the bat to your coach and teammates that throwing is off (way off).

2)  Check for injury.

3)  If the kid just went through a big growth spurt--that is likely part of it.  

4) Use throwing drills--not just throw downs or playing catch.  Usually it is not a fear of throwing--it is a fear of throwing hard.  You have to throw hard anyway.  Lobbing it  creates bad habits (I understand that you may need to lob back to the pitcher to get through a crucial game--but don't do it otherwise).

Just my thoughts on the subject so far.  We have a couple weeks off before our next tourney so we have some time to work!

Last edited by Nikki

Personally, I’m not convinced that the yips are always (or even usually) “mental”. Seems like most people jump to that conclusion. I’ve read countless yips stories, and very often the story begins with an injury.

Think about how physiologically complex the act of throwing a baseball is. A good reminder is when you watch gifted athletes from other sports throw out a first pitch. Many look absolutely ridiculous. Those people don't have "mental blocks", their bodies don't have the imprinted muscle memory that allows a smooth throw. IMO, an injury could be the trigger that disrupts that complex system in the first place.

I would say it is more commonly mental, but I can also see it being physical. I just haven't seen as many examples as you have with it starting after an injury. With teens you often have a period of significant growth. My son grew over 6 inches his freshman year. In his case though, something happened (a "trauma") that made his brain block his physical ability or kinetic chain to throw a baseball. Honestly, when it first happened I would have thought he was a lefty throwing with the wrong arm.

@Nikki posted:

Distracting the brain does make sense.  He definitely throws better when he is not trying to throw or has to throw fast without time to think (his throws to make an out are better than throwing to the pitcher or throwing to 3rd after a strike out--throws to 3rd look comical).  However, his throws to make outs used to be bullets and now they are weak.  Last night he threw hard to his dad for the first time in weeks--came in and said--I think it is over--I'm working out of it.  It is certainly our first sign of hard throws in a while--but throwing in the yard does not have the pressure of the game--so we will see.  

Glad to hear he threw well with dad! That is a HUGE step. Now he knows he can physically still throw. I will caution you though, it is likely not over. Have him meet up with a couple of good friends as much as he can over the next couple of weeks and play catch with them. He will gradually go from throwing great with dad, to friends, and eventually kids on his team. 

A couple of tips to help him manage it when the games start:

1. ALWAYS be the kid going out during warm ups and not standing on the line. This way if he makes a bad throw the other kid just walks to the fence to pick it up. The more his throwing partner has to chase, the more embarrassing it becomes. It will give him more confidence to throw hard and not worry about where the ball goes

2. Have him watch other teams warm up before games. There are TONS of bad throws. My son has always had great control (5 bb in over 30 innings pitching last summer and fall). To him if the ball isn't in the chest its a bad throw. Seeing how other kids normally throw who don't have yips makes him chuckle now.

3. He will likely be nervous or anxious before his next practice or game. Just remind him to keep trying and remind him about all these stories about how many people go through it and get over it. There is a reason MIF kids are taught at a young age to back up the pitcher. 

Glad to hear he threw well with dad! That is a HUGE step. Now he knows he can physically still throw. I will caution you though, it is likely not over. Have him meet up with a couple of good friends as much as he can over the next couple of weeks and play catch with them. He will gradually go from throwing great with dad, to friends, and eventually kids on his team. 

A couple of tips to help him manage it when the games start:

1. ALWAYS be the kid going out during warm ups and not standing on the line. This way if he makes a bad throw the other kid just walks to the fence to pick it up. The more his throwing partner has to chase, the more embarrassing it becomes. It will give him more confidence to throw hard and not worry about where the ball goes

2. Have him watch other teams warm up before games. There are TONS of bad throws. My son has always had great control (5 bb in over 30 innings pitching last summer and fall). To him if the ball isn't in the chest its a bad throw. Seeing how other kids normally throw who don't have yips makes him chuckle now.

3. He will likely be nervous or anxious before his next practice or game. Just remind him to keep trying and remind him about all these stories about how many people go through it and get over it. There is a reason MIF kids are taught at a young age to back up the pitcher. 

Thank you for the tips.  They make a lot of sense.  I agree that it most likely is not over.  What what I have read it definitely takes time and we are only a couple of weeks into it.  He did tell me last night that he did not want to talk about it--as if he can simply believe it is gone.  I definitely agree that the next step is to throw with friends--but he will throw with the team in practice Thursday night--ready or not!

I've never thought of our experience as the yips.  We were playing in Florida in a big world series when middle son on his 12th birthday went from being one of the best in the tournament to not being able to throw to home plate.  We were in semis and I had been able to save him.  He had pitched earlier in the week and played first fine.  That day he could not get the ball to home plate with any power.  He hit a shot to the fence and could not even get to second running.  We ended up losing and I showed my butt.  I thought he was just frustrated he had to play on his birthday and we had not bought the bike he wanted because of the tournament.  His buddies were playing in a different world series at home.  Since he had not pitched a complete inning and me still thinking it was attitude not physical we drove home.  They were in finals of a world series.  He thought he could pitch and everything would be okay.  I told the coach about what had happened and he said he'll be fine.  he got on the mound to warm-up and could not get the ball to home plate.  Started crying on the mound.  We pulled him before he ever threw a game pitch.  Went straight to the doctor.  They did an exam and found nothing wrong.  He said I think he is having a growth spurt but if not we need to do some test.  Give it a week or so.  The next day we were going somewhere and he went to put on  his new shoes that we had bought the week before.  Would not fit.  Over the next couple of weeks he grew as you were watching almost.  Grew 6 inches in 4 months and went up 4 shoe sizes.  Hurt all the time.  The pitching came back better than ever.  Never thought of it being the yips because to me the yips are a mental ability to throw, not physical but we learn new things all the time. 

My P/OF 16yo is starting to develop the yips. He is fine on the mound, and throwing from distance. It is only when warming up, from distances between 40-70'. Once he gets to around 90' he's fine, and is very accurate to distances as long as 280'. His accuracy is fine doing tempo catch.

    He has a strong arm, and is healthy. Up till this winter he had nerve pain in his elbow when pitching, but totally revamped his motion, giving him 8-10MPH more on his fastball, and allowing him to throw a ball 70' longer in long toss, all with no pain.

    I try to tell him it could be worse, as OF'ers don't really have to worry about 50' throws, but he gets embarrassed warming up before games. His throw can be 10' over his partners head, or he can spike it 10' in front of him.

@Nikki posted:

Thank you for the tips.  They make a lot of sense.  I agree that it most likely is not over.  What what I have read it definitely takes time and we are only a couple of weeks into it.  He did tell me last night that he did not want to talk about it--as if he can simply believe it is gone.  I definitely agree that the next step is to throw with friends--but he will throw with the team in practice Thursday night--ready or not!

Any update on your son? Has there been anything he's tried that has helped more than other tips?

Any update on your son? Has there been anything he's tried that has helped more than other tips?

Thank you so much for checking.  He started by throwing in his cage to a target on the wall and throwing outside to his dad.  He has now thrown with friends, his coach, and at team practice and he has gotten his speed back.  Every now and then he throws a wild one--but overall he seems to be working out of it.  Our next tournament begins tomorrow so we will see how he does in game situations--that will be the true test.  I will say--we haven't really made a huge deal out of it and he feels like he has gotten it licked.  

Great article. 

This past weekend I was watching my son's tournament. His team was visitor and the third out was made to switch. As the pitcher was warming up, I said to my wife "look, that catcher has the same issue as TBPson." I could see him lobbing the ball awkwardly but effectively back to the pitcher. Throw down to second was a rocket and right on the back. With 2 outs a kid chased a ball in the dirt. Catcher blocks and kills it, picks it up, takes a few steps to make the tag but he was late. He went to make the throw, hesitated, then sailed it over the 1b head. A couple parents laughed somewhat loud and I gave them a stern look and they quieted themselves immediately. It was one of the worst feelings I can remember having at a baseball game knowing what that kid is going through. 

One positive I've taken away from this, my son's arm doesn't get sore from throwing too much in a game these days. The lob back to the pitcher takes a ton of stress off the arm.

2022 is in short CF, and makes a throw home to nail a runner tagging up. The ball hits 25' up on the backstop. The coach(P5 LHP who is no stranger to arm problems)says, "Next time, just throw it over the backstop!" as a way to defuse the tension. It worked, laughs all round. 

Yips persist, and are now invading the mound where he is now babying the ball in. Velo is WAY down...I know what you are thinking, but no...zero pain.

  That, together with a slump at the plate. It's a tough game, sometimes.

@57special posted:

2022 is in short CF, and makes a throw home to nail a runner tagging up. The ball hits 25' up on the backstop. The coach(P5 LHP who is no stranger to arm problems)says, "Next time, just throw it over the backstop!" as a way to defuse the tension. It worked, laughs all round. 

Yips persist, and are now invading the mound where he is now babying the ball in. Velo is WAY down...I know what you are thinking, but no...zero pain.

  That, together with a slump at the plate. It's a tough game, sometimes.

Will your son throw hard during a pen?

He has been gradually throwing slower and slower since May, when he reached his top velo. He's been obsessing about his breaking pitches, but mainly his pre throw catch routine(he is a OF/P), which has now bled into his OF between inning routine. Is now bouncing the ball to the other OF'er...not a good look.

  Zero pain in his arm, and can throw the ball around 320' when playing long toss.

 

 In general, though, he can throw the ball quite hard once he gets to a mid range distance of around 120+'. Around 200' he is quite accurate, and can throw hard.

  

@57special posted:

He has been gradually throwing slower and slower since May, when he reached his top velo. He's been obsessing about his breaking pitches, but mainly his pre throw catch routine(he is a OF/P), which has now bled into his OF between inning routine. Is now bouncing the ball to the other OF'er...not a good look.

  Zero pain in his arm, and can throw the ball around 320' when playing long toss.

 

 In general, though, he can throw the ball quite hard once he gets to a mid range distance of around 120+'. Around 200' he is quite accurate, and can throw hard.

  

My son played OF a few weeks ago and was doing the same thing for his warm ups. It looked lazy but I knew he just couldn’t do it. My main concern is he’s going to make a max intent throw and not be warmed up resulting in an injury. 

When you say he’s progressively throwing slower, what is the difference from May until now?

My son played OF a few weeks ago and was doing the same thing for his warm ups. It looked lazy but I knew he just couldn’t do it. My main concern is he’s going to make a max intent throw and not be warmed up resulting in an injury. 

When you say he’s progressively throwing slower, what is the difference from May until now?

 Has lost 10-12 mph on the mound. He's all disjointed at this point. Tempo catch he's still accurate, if not very accurate. If he has any time to think, he's lost.

We'll see today, but in general, I'd say, yes. He is much worse in games, but he is also highly conscious of trying not to walk people, as he is on a summer team that is the worst I've ever seen in that regard, and he doesn't want to add to the problem.The yips seem to have affected his whole game. Made him hesitant.

It's just a difficult summer season in general.

Just wanted to check in and see how everyone whose son is struggling has been doing. My son wrapped up the Wilson Premier on Sunday. He played mostly C but had a few innings at 2B. Overall, his throwing was the best I've seen in a long time. His throws to the mound are still a little awkward looking, but every throw gets there without the pitcher needing to make spectacular catches. Throws to the bases are right on the bag and the velo has picked up quite a bit with the added weight.

What do you guys think worked the best for your kids?  Softball player who plays third developed yips and can't play catch much less throw to first.  Bounces it or air mails it.  Was going to take off this fall but is junior and highly recruited.  Coaches want to see her play even though she can't throw good.  They even moved her to second and she still could not throw accurately.  I suggested taking a little time off and hope she cleared her head as most I read seems to think it is mental if not an injury.  Thoughts?  The sad part is for her it is only about 40 feet and second was 20 feet.  She started crying a little while back it was so bad.  Told her dad I don't want to play this game.  His response was to make her throw until it fixed itself and made her arm sore. 

@PitchingFan posted:

What do you guys think worked the best for your kids?  Softball player who plays third developed yips and can't play catch much less throw to first.  Bounces it or air mails it.  Was going to take off this fall but is junior and highly recruited.  Coaches want to see her play even though she can't throw good.  They even moved her to second and she still could not throw accurately.  I suggested taking a little time off and hope she cleared her head as most I read seems to think it is mental if not an injury.  Thoughts?  The sad part is for her it is only about 40 feet and second was 20 feet.  She started crying a little while back it was so bad.  Told her dad I don't want to play this game.  His response was to make her throw until it fixed itself and made her arm sore. 

We did just about every possible drill or routine imaginable. Based on what you described, maybe take her to a racquetball court and just have her throw it against the wall. Let her feel what it is like to throw again without worrying where it is going. Then you can start giving targets on the wall.

Another thing that gave instant results but wasn't a cure was throwing with the lightest Driveline ball. Started slow and then added velo when he was comfortable. When he picked up a regular ball he could throw it anywhere he wanted. 

What seems to have helped the most is his warm up routine his catching coach gave him. He starts both feet and shoulders facing the target about 15-20' apart and just works on kind of flipping the ball and really feeling the ball and backspin. Then he'll go into almost like a rocker throw but feet and shoulders still facing the target from about 30'. Then he'll finally go into a rocker throw at 45-50'. Once he gets into regular throws he does an exaggerated step in with his right foot which really forces the left side to swing around and close. He'll do this out to 90' and then it is smooth sailing. I think the reason this works is it forces his body into position to make a throw rather than constantly thinking about his mechanics.

We did just about every possible drill or routine imaginable. Based on what you described, maybe take her to a racquetball court and just have her throw it against the wall. Let her feel what it is like to throw again without worrying where it is going. Then you can start giving targets on the wall.

Another thing that gave instant results but wasn't a cure was throwing with the lightest Driveline ball. Started slow and then added velo when he was comfortable. When he picked up a regular ball he could throw it anywhere he wanted. 

What seems to have helped the most is his warm up routine his catching coach gave him. He starts both feet and shoulders facing the target about 15-20' apart and just works on kind of flipping the ball and really feeling the ball and backspin. Then he'll go into almost like a rocker throw but feet and shoulders still facing the target from about 30'. Then he'll finally go into a rocker throw at 45-50'. Once he gets into regular throws he does an exaggerated step in with his right foot which really forces the left side to swing around and close. He'll do this out to 90' and then it is smooth sailing. I think the reason this works is it forces his body into position to make a throw rather than constantly thinking about his mechanics.

@PitchingFan posted:

What do you guys think worked the best for your kids?  Softball player who plays third developed yips and can't play catch much less throw to first.  Bounces it or air mails it.  Was going to take off this fall but is junior and highly recruited.  Coaches want to see her play even though she can't throw good.  They even moved her to second and she still could not throw accurately.  I suggested taking a little time off and hope she cleared her head as most I read seems to think it is mental if not an injury.  Thoughts?  The sad part is for her it is only about 40 feet and second was 20 feet.  She started crying a little while back it was so bad.  Told her dad I don't want to play this game.  His response was to make her throw until it fixed itself and made her arm sore. 

PitchingFan:  My son is a catcher.  He originally had problems throwing to first and then it became an inability to even throw back to the pitcher.  This started early June.  We have played several tournaments at this point and have not had another weird throw during a tournament since July--however, he has lost some confidence and some speed, he still has an off throw if he needs to throw it around and his throws back to the pitcher are "so-so"--you can tell he is thinking about it, but he gets it there.  We just played a Perfect Game tournament and he threw great when it counted.    One thing (which I believe came from TerribleBPThrower's son) was to go to a baseball field and throw to the pitcher blindfolded--this really helped him get a feel for the ball and realize that his body knows how to do this.  He has also spent A LOT of extra time throwing with his dad, doing drills, weighted balls, etc. 

Another thing that I believe was extremely helpful was I let him take a look at some of the comments on this thread--my purpose was --this happens to A LOT of people and A LOT of people have struggled with it and overcome it.  It is not always career ending.  You can work through it and overcome it.  Unfortunately, when you first Google this--pretty much the Sports Psychologist ads come up and make it sounds like they have the only "cure" and it may be career ending.  I agree that there is a mental/emotional component--but I think that immediately going to a psychologist may magnify that aspect instead of reducing it.  I will say that after throwing pretty well for several weeks, my son had his first baseball workout at a new school.  He was extremely nervous and as a result, he did not throw well during warm-up...even had a senior yell--"we are in high school, you have to be able to throw at this level".  My son was ticked.  However, now the high school coach and team are aware of what is going on...their awareness seems to help my son...he has nothing to hide because they know.  He went back to the next practice with a chip on his shoulder and threw extremely well.   One other thing that helps is he is hitting really well.  His take on this--he is working through it.   There has also been some positive character building in my son as a result.  It has brought some humility and recognition of how to be intentional about help others when they are struggling.

@PitchingFan posted:

What do you guys think worked the best for your kids?  Softball player who plays third developed yips and can't play catch much less throw to first.  Bounces it or air mails it.  Was going to take off this fall but is junior and highly recruited.  Coaches want to see her play even though she can't throw good.  They even moved her to second and she still could not throw accurately.  I suggested taking a little time off and hope she cleared her head as most I read seems to think it is mental if not an injury.  Thoughts?  The sad part is for her it is only about 40 feet and second was 20 feet.  She started crying a little while back it was so bad.  Told her dad I don't want to play this game.  His response was to make her throw until it fixed itself and made her arm sore. 

There was a kid like this on my son’s high school team. The high school coach would only DH the kid once the situation got really bad. This kid was moved from third to second. He was bouncing throws to first from second. One time he froze before throwing. It’s the only time I’ve even seen a hitter beat the throw on a routine grounder to second.

The dad came to me (a travel coach, not his) and asked what the kid should do at a showcase or tournament in the summer. I told the kid just fire the ball and show your throwing velocity even if the ball ends up in the third row. 

A player can’t get over yips by pushing the ball. They have to continue firing it. It’s not uncommon for a kid with yips to lose their mechanics without realizing it. Keep an eye on the footwork and throwing angle.

Last edited by RJM

We are at the WWBA this weekend. My son was not in the field last night because he was catching today. So after the game yesterday he tells me his throwing was way off warming up and in the pen. I thought “would have been nice to know this at the field instead of on the way to the hotel”. Stopped at Dicks to buy a new Victus because his cracked in BP. There was some open grass so we go out to have a game of catch. Wowza! When he says off, he was WAY off. Looked at him and said “I don’t care where this goes, but you need to throw the next ball hard because it’s getting dark and we don’t have time to fix it”. First two throws he lets rip but short hops. The next 20 or so he drills me right in the chest. He said he was good and came up and gave me a huge hug. Today he was throwing dimes all over the place. Super accurate and hard. 

I passed on the information from this section to a high level softball recruit who developed them and could not throw from second to first much less from third to first.  Dad implemented many of the strategies on here and this past weekend in front of the school she is going to commit to was error free in two games.  She finally got her confidence back and produced.  Thanks to everyone even though it was not my kid.

The dad thinks the number one thing was she threw every day for a week with a blindfold on for 50 throws to regain her confidence in the throw.  It also helped that her teammates ran over to her and celebrated when she threw a rocket to first the first ball that came to her.  She said it was a little embarrassing but she knew they had her back.  RF told her after the inning I'm glad you're back because I'm tired of chasing your balls down every time one is hit to you. 

@PitchingFan posted:

I passed on the information from this section to a high level softball recruit who developed them and could not throw from second to first much less from third to first.  Dad implemented many of the strategies on here and this past weekend in front of the school she is going to commit to was error free in two games.  She finally got her confidence back and produced.  Thanks to everyone even though it was not my kid.

This is freakin awesome! Thank you for the update. Another example of why this site exists

I’ve mentioned before that my son does a firm lob (best way to describe it) because he can’t throw back to the pitcher. Well, after the entire summer and a super competitive fall a kid finally tried to steal home on the throw back. The pitcher was taking his hat off on every pitch while receiving the throw from the C. They got the kid out, but I give the kid credit for seeing the opportunity.

Then the next day my son just decided to start firing the ball back to the pitcher again. Hasn’t done that since January. My wife and I were excited to see it but still haven’t said anything to him. I’m praying he can keep it up.

I had the yips in high school throwing to first. Fortunately, being a LHP I froze runners with my leg. If they forced me to throw over I was exposed.

A Legion teammate had such bad yips on comebackers he ran most of the way to first before tossing the ball underhand.

Ever see Jon Lester’s move when he developed the yips? It got so bad for a while runners would get 18-20 foot leads knowing there was no way Lester could pick them off.

https://www.stack.com/a/the-ps...-throw-to-first-base

Last edited by RJM

Figured I'd revive this thread and see how everyone struggling with this is doing. My son was doing pretty well in the preseason bullpens until he had to catch a pitcher on the left pen (there are some plants next to that mound). He threw a few balls into the plants and also hit the ace standing off to the side. Prior to that he was letting it rip back to the pitcher. Now he's back to a very awkward throw to the pitcher, but it gets there. I overheard a couple dads during pitcher warmups in the first inning about how they were going to run all over this catcher. When he threw down to second they both said "oh" at the same time. My wife laughed.

He's struggled the past couple games on outside throws to first on dropped 3rds, but I think it is more related to a recent back injury than yips.

Hi TerribleBPThrower, My son reports to me that he is doing well--he has not come out of a practice looking downcast--which if he thought that it was back--it would show all over his face.  We are not allowed inside so I am not able to see for myself yet.  We haven't played a game yet so that will be the true test.  There has not been a lot of on the field practice either so hard to say.  I will keep you posted!  Praying for success of all our players facing this in high school; it is hard to watch and takes some of the fun out of the game.  I would have loved to laugh with your wife as the dads said "OH"!

New year, new hope. 57jr. is really getting into throwing technique from the mound, but we'll see how it translates to other types of throws. If he was an INF it would be more of an issue, but all he has to worry about is throwing to bases from the mound, and short throws to the cutoff from the OF. He loves the longer throws because he can air it out.

   Was watching Vanderbilt game the other day. Man on 1st, bloop to the RF. Baserunner hesitates till he sees it isn't caught. RF guns the ball to second, and would've had him by 10', but overthrew him by so much that the 3B caught it on the fly. Made sure to tell my son about it, so he knows that even elite players have their struggles.

  I'm now too old to catch him unless he is at least 80' away. Eyes can't keep up with what his ball is doing.

Last edited by 57special

Just an update.  Starting catcher in 4 varsity games thus far (Senior catcher have started the other 2; DH in those games).  Had 5 kids over those 4 games try to steal second--we have 5 outs.  Throws to 1st and pitcher also look good.  Two stole third--Spiked both of these throws.  Huge progress which I attribute to a combination of answered prayer and hard work!

Holy cow, the yips are painful to watch. My son has been yips free for quite some time. He guest played a couple Friday's ago for his HS coach's summer team. All of a sudden he had an entirely new throwing motion to the pitcher to to 2b. It was extremely awkward and I am really concerned it is going to hurt his arm. As a result of the throwing motion he is spiking throws to second off the mound and about 25% of his throws to the pitcher are spiked halfway or short hops. The funny thing is the other team tried to steal when they finally had a runner on first. Out of nowhere his mechanics lined up and he threw the hardest I've seen to 2b. The tournament  PocketRadar read 84mph on the throw. He was out.



Fast forward to this past weekend. It was awful to watch. I was hoping the coach would take him out and finally did after 5 innings. I heard one of the coaches on the other team comment that he was the best blocker and receiver he'd seen all weekend, but the throws were so unnatural looking. Thankfully, no runners advanced on any of his throws. I have to think it disrupted the pitcher rhythm though. On a positive, he hit the crap out of the ball and the coach is going to keep him in as an EH and P (coaches are really confused at how he can still pitch) until things get better.



We threw as soon as we got home yesterday and he didn't have an awkward or bad throw. Must have been a couple hundred throws at varying distances from 45' - 120'. Also 2 buckets back to the mound with every throw on the money.

I totally feel the --"It is hard to watch comment"...  Certainly have been there.  I love that your son keeps throwing hard regardless.  That is what it takes as he already knows.  I am especially glad that he hit so well.  When my son was experiencing the yips--there were no intermittent good throws that I recollect.  We have not experienced any throwing issues this season quite the contrary, but we are experiencing a bit of a hitting slump.  However, hitting slumps are well understood by the masses; yips are rarely understood by those who have not directly had the pleasure of experiencing them.  Not to say that we understand them--but we do know that contrary to Google results--their baseball career is not over, throwing can be restored and therapy is not needed.

Behind a paywall/subscription. Who is Jason Kuhl?

I read another story last week about Matzek and forgot to post it here. There was a line in it where his brother almost stopped playing catch with him after being hit in the legs so many times. Reminded me of getting drilled in the shins and feet by my son over the past couple years.

Sorry, spelled his name wrong above (fixed that).  @jasonkuhn255 on twitter.

https://sports.yahoo.com/a-lif...raves-162705023.html

Last edited by MidAtlanticDad

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