You don't have to be that good to get a scholarship...

I'm not getting where your trying to go with this topic.

I have been to several camps and the players there have wanted nothing more than to play baseball. Sure there are the players that will get ahead of where people think they can get to b/c of a self-promoting father but the majority of players get to where they are with hard work and dedication and a very strong love for the game of baseball.

The more important thing is whether or not they will play and contribute to their team's success once they get there......that is more important than the scholarship.

Limom - I would be interested in knowing where such a thing occurred and who the person was that recommended the kid in question. For example, if Billy Beane or Theo Epstein happened to see a kid and recommend him as a potential high potential player, I can imagine that a few college coaches might just take them at their word. Any clarification would be appreciated. Thanks.

Is this another case of "my son is better than he is but has no scholarship" ??

Limom

For your edification

I know players who got scholarships based on references and recommendations--it is not a case of who you know but more a case of a respected opinion from another Baseball man

Why not tell us about your son, if you in fact have one playing HS baseball, and how he is being short changed because I think that is your problem and where you are headed with this.

Why is this so unbelievable - the one thing you hear on this board repeatedly is you never know who's watching.

Coach's have networks just like any other businessmen. (other coach's, retired coaches, maybe even a MLB scout who lives next door).
If the coach has history with the person who recommends the player sometimes that's as good as seeing for himself.

Or, for argument sake, it could be the case of a coach who's too lazy to recruit. He ends up giving a scholarship to a less talented player, Of course, a coach like this certainly won't have a good program -- so when it comes right down to it - the kid may be getting some scholarship money, but he's not getting any great opportunity.

Either way, there is no sense losing sleep over it.

Limom,
My mom once told me that feeling sorry for yourself will get you nowhere. My mom is a very wise lady and things tend to go best for me when I listen to her. Maybe you should too.

Here we go again................

When you combine the fact that judging talent and projecting an outcome is not an exact science with the fact that people are involved, it's almost a miracle it is not worse.

I doubt whether every coach has the time or budget to see every kid they wish to consider, nor would they want to limit themselves to this small of a population .

There should be a big sign on this thread ..

WARNING ... DO NOT FEED !!!!!!

By limom,

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Apparently, some colleges don't even see a kid before offering him a scholarship to play at their school. It is not always how well you play but who you know. Kids can be offered these scholarships from being seen at indoor workouts by "knowledegeable baseball people", who recommend them to the college coaches and are signed sight unseen. Unbelievable, but it happened! Of course, these kids look like ballplayers. Don't get me wrong, these guys probably can get by playing at the college level, but probably are not as deserving as others. I thought this stuff ended in HS and LL.

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limom,

What you have said is true regarding some colleges not seeing a kid before making an offer. I could give you several examples where we (PG) have recommended players to top level colleges and they sign with the school sight unseen. In every single case where this has happened the player has become one of the very best in the program. So yes, they got by at the college level, and they were very deserving!

The example you use above (indoor workout) really did happen with us. The pitcher from Wisconsin went sight unseen to a top 20 DI school in the southeast and became their #1 pitcher. When things like this happen, college recruiters are likely to allow it to happen again.

Another college that has won several National DI championships offered a HS senior a scholarship (sight unseen) based on our recommendation. That player ended up signing with a local college instead and became a first round draft pick last year.

I can't speak for everyone, but it is common knowledge to many college coaches that if we highly recommend a player, he is the real deal!!! These players are much better than "just get by" types. They are very deserving and go on to prove it! Of course, anytime a college recruiter can see the player he will want to. However, some times, timing and other things just don't allow it.

Limon if your son is a stud and deserving of baseball attention by those that matter why are you worried about other people? And if he is not a stud then nothing you can say or do will make him a stud. Let his actions on the field speak for himself. If he is good he will be fine. And if he is not so be it. Worrying about other people is pointless. And yes kids sign all the time without ever being seen by the team that signs them. I have had several over the years that have received scholarships based on our coaching staffs word. And you can bet that we will never do anything to loose the trust of the college coaches. We are very honest and direct about our players. But what are you worried about? If your son can flat out play you dont have to worry about him having a place to play. What High School does he play for? What showcase events has he attended and planning to attend? What summer or fall teams has he played on and planning to play on? Size Speed Posistion's Grad Year Schools he is interested in? All I hear is whining and complaining. Look for solutions not excuses.

Limom-

Why do you have a problem with this? I would suspect these "knowledgeable baseball people" know a little more about recruiting than you do. They consider many factors including a players "projectability".

If you want your son to receive a scholarship offer you should get busy marketing him. Don't assume he will be noticed. Your son should write letters to coaches, make phone calls, play in high profile events, and make contacts with knowledgeable baseball people.

Where I live this is all very important as college coaches generally do not recruit from high school games. As has been said before, they are busy coaching their own games during this time.

Keep in mind that coaches evaluate a players parents as well. College coaches do not want to listen to Johnny's mom and dad complain about their son's playing time. If you project a negative image, you could hurt your son's chances.

If all this doesn't work maybe he's not as deserving as you think. Sometimes as parents we can have blinders on when it comes to our kids talent.

TRHit is right on. Most good coaches have a network of people that they trust to send good kids in their direction. No college coach can see every kid, so they count on other respected "baseball people" to see some things for them. I have some colleagues that I would trust completely, and some who are "homers" for their own players. It always depends on the credibility of the source.

PhoenixDad---

Here you go!!

Limom,

TR, Coach May, Coach Knight are very correct. College coaching staffs even with 4 coaches can not see every single player they want to see. We are playing the same time the High Schools are playing. I do not get out and about so to speak until our season has completed. So that means following players on summer teams and/or showcase teams.

Colleges depend heavily on great HS coaches with great baseball reputations and their ability to recognize HS players that can play at the collegiate level. We also depend heavily on area scouts who in their travels see players that are not ready for the professional ranks, but can certainly get it done at the collegiate level.

I can promise you the first time we get a bad recommendation from a HS coach or scout will be the last time. The good baseball people out there do not give bad recommendations, they are proud of their "baseball" reputation and would like to keep it. You know whose judgment you can trust and whose you can't as well.

Orioles42

All I have to do is get on the phone and I can get any of my kids a scholarship. GOOD THING MY NAME ISN'T PINOCHIO!!!

Really, I can call certain schools and get an interest. However, I think few programs are going to spend any of thier money on a kid sight unseen. What does count and can be verified, quality of school and program. Quality of conference and overall schedule. Quality of summer ball program that the young man participates in. If all of these are outstanding, then the young man can certainly play at a level that college coaches can gague.

There was a kid that I played ball with when I was a kid and I still remember his dad coming over to the house complaining about their little league coach and how the coach's kid played instead of his kid and how unfair it was.

A few years later we ran into his parents in high school and I remember talking to the kid and his dad about playing ball and the dad was saying how great the kid was, but the coach's had it in for him.

I saw the kid (now adult) about a month ago and I asked him what he was doing and he said that he had this great job but got fired because they hired a relative to take his job and they had it in for him since they hired him.

It's always someone else's fault isn't it?

CoachB25 made me think about my post. I did not want to leave the impression that those phone calls or recommendations from HS coaches or scouts put the player on the team.

It just gets him to the school. He has to make the team on his own just like anyone else. Thanks CoachB25.....

Orioles42

who deserves to get a scholarship, from a parent's point of view? Most of the times they took stats (Ave, wins, etc) to compare the players, and not natural talent (Speed, arm, power, etc). In reality, any HS coach will recommend a player that he believe will succes at college level for 4 years. A lot of kids that are good enough at HS level, can not play just one inning of college's ball, just because they don't have the potential to jump to the next level. So this is a little more complicated. A better HS career doesn't mint the best choice for college or pro.

I hope those of you that are high school coaches take this the right way. I’m fairly sure most of you would be the exception to the rule.

Those in order, that are least likely to be taken serious by a college recruiter or pro scout.

1. Parents and relatives
2. Recruiting Services
3. High School coaches
4. Local Fans

A quick story from past days. I once leafed through a bunch of info sent out by a recruiting service. I found listed this kid in Northern Minnesota who was 6’4 and had a reported 93 mph fastball. Everything about him sounded unbelievable “potential early round pick”. I called his high school coach (listed in the info) and he confirmed all the info was true and even added more glowing words about the very talented kid. I drove 10 hours to go see the kid pitch. He was wild, which I could have lived with, but his 93 mph fastball was 77 mph on this day. People in the stands were cheering calling him “Smoke” and asking me how hard he was throwing. Of course, I got the “there must be something wrong with the gun” remarks. Truth is, a gun was not required in this instance. His 6’4 body looked more like 6’1 and he really had terrible mechanics and threw with herky/jerky, complete all out effort. He won that game to take his record to 6-0 for the year, but he was my least favorite player after driving 10 hours to see him and facing another 10 hours to go home. I wish they had sent a video tape, I would have saved a lot of time. Needless to say, I have not repeated this mistake.

Unless someone is very familiar with who, and how talented, the players are at LSU, Miami, Stanford, Texas, Arizona State, Clemson, Notre Dame, etc. or unless they’ve seen the very top national players in high school… They have no way of knowing, let alone recommending a player to those programs. The best they can do is a reference letter for the player.

It should be said that there are some high level summer and fall coaches who can and do help college recruiters a lot. There’s even some of the very most respected high school coaches who get the same respect. You can fool recruiters only once, no matter who you might be.

This past week, I was able to talk to Coach Cohen at Kentucky. He is a fantastic speaker and I really admired his presentation. Well, he and I talked for a small time and he asked about our talent level as compared to a player I have that he has seen. That was Saturday. Today, I have a mailing from Coach Cohen asking for names and also asking for area talent. Will Coach Cohen know me in two weeks? Probably not. However, that contact might get some kid in this area noticed when they review the sheet I'm sending in. Colleges do count on High School coaches for recruiting. However, that is only one part of the bigger picture. It take everyone involved with that kid including parents, high school coaches, summer coaches and even some alumni that might see your kid play to get him a look. All that you can ask for is to get that look.

PGStaff brings up some good points as well. In any contact I have with colleges, I will not state what a kid throws as gospel. If our kids get gunned at a camp and have that recorded on one of those camp evaluations, I tell the college interested who gunned the kid and the speed. I also always am sure to say that I don't gun our kids. The worse thing any high school coach can do is get a reputation for stretching the truth to college coaches. It is like a plague that will never leave that coach.

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It is like a plague that will never leave that coach.

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Coach,

That is the absolute truth. Unfortunatly, the majority of high school coaches do not understand that. In our business, we really appreciate the high school coaches who know what they're talking about and speak the truth. Those that really care about their credibility and reputation.

Here is a question: Which is worse?

1. The High School coach that has no real interest and doesn't try to help his players get to the next level. (We know some of them, they always say... It's not their job)

2. The High School coach who promotes his players to the next level using false information. More through inexperience or lack of knowledge, rather than out right lies. (We know some of them, too)

My son is a pretty good player for his age. He's got strengths and he's got weaknesses. If he continues to work hard, grows and improves he might have an outside shot at a baseball scholarship one day but I wouldn't bet a whole lot on it.

I think it is an insult to the very few players who get college scholarships to say that a player doesn't have to be very good to get a scholarship.

There are some very good players who don't get scholarships. In some cases, they are better than some of the players who do get scholarships, but virtually all of the players who get scholarships are very, very good players and have earned those scholarships.

By CADad,

quote:

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I think it is an insult to the very few players who get college scholarships to say that a player doesn't have to be very good to get a scholarship.

There are some very good players who don't get scholarships. In some cases, they are better than some of the players who do get scholarships, but virtually all of the players who get scholarships are very, very good players and have earned those scholarships.

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CADad,
BINGO!!!!!
By the way, with your attitude, I will go on record saying that I will bet on your son... sight unseen!

quote:

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It is not always how well you play but who you know

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IMHO, that's cr*p. And I'm sure some are insulted as CAdad said. (I am) but I'm taking into consideration where the comment came from. CAdad....could you rub some of that great attitude off around here?

PGStaff ...

This entire thread has openned up the other side of the coin also ....

I'm sure that everyone who has been around for awhile has seen a very good player passed over for a scholarship offer because of baggage from his parents or because of an attitude, grade and/or behavioral problem (or just reputation of a problem that is unproven but worrisome).

We don't like to mention it, but it does happen, and perhaps more frequently than we would like to see.

PhoenixDad,

Great point!

All things being equal, the parents can and have been a deciding factor many times. (both ways)

Sure everyone can say "I don't have to deal with the parents", but there is one way you can make sure you don't have to deal with the problem.

Unfortunately, many parents do not understand the harm they can do. The good ones (parents) stick out like a sore thumb, but in a good way. It can be very helpful to their son, in many different ways.

Everyone appreciates those people with a great attitude and realistic outlook. Yes, even college coaches and Major League scouts. If you show good makeup, there's a good chance your son has it, too!

They also know that the complainers and bitchers usually don't all of a sudden stop complaining and bitching. If you hear someone cutting down someone behind their back, chances are that you just got in line!

I am appalled by the title of this topic.

First of all, I would like to thank all those who verify that this does happen, especially PGStaff, whose outfit, I believe, runs an excellent and reputable showcase for HS ballplayers. As for those who are outraged by this thread, please read the responses and learn something. You are hearing from HS coaches, college coaches, and evaluators giving you insight into the recruiting process.

Here I am trying to be positive and give hope to those who haven't been noticed and some are getting upset about that. It is great to know that these kids still have a chance because of knowledgeable baseball people and their contacts. Again, it is not always what you know, but who you know. I did not say that these were favors granted to undeserving ballplayers.

And, I am glad that my son is involved with people who can help. As you know, the best players will be found by the colleges. It is this next group that must do all the marketing of themselves, including attending showcases, college camps, etc. to improve their scholarship chances. How lucky for them to run into someone who can help...

See? I CAN be nice.

BiggB ...

I see that you are relatively new to posting here ... at least under this handle. So, just rest assured that when you see a thread started by the poster who started this one ... more often than not, you will be offended. The poster in question likes to entitle his/her threads so as to instigate a lot of controversy. Seems to be the nature of the person ...

"It just gets him to the school. He has to make the team on his own just like anyone else ."

quote:

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Unfortunately, many parents do not understand the harm they can do. The good ones (parents) stick out like a sore thumb, but in a good way. It can be very helpful to their son, in many different ways.

Everyone appreciates those people with a great attitude and realistic outlook. Yes, even college coaches and Major League scouts. If you show good makeup, there's a good chance your son has it, too!

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From Orioles42 and PGStaff, respectively.

Sometimes you are just trolling along there and some things just jump off the page at you.

I saw about 15 sign an NLI meaning they received some financial assistance to play baseball.

For a variety of reasons, only 8 are still there.

For those that walk on and only see players with schollies that make the team, there are those WITH schollies that lose them.....................

A division 1 team has 11.7 scholarships and typically a travel roster of 25 and a full roster of 35-40.

Certainly some players receive scholarships based on recommendations (from known and credible sources) without being seen by the school in question. Most all are seen.

this isn't little league. College coaches are paid professionals, they keep and lose their jobs based on the results they produce. To imply that scholarships are handed out in some capricious fashion might happen in the most fluke situation, if at all, but the greater implication of the concept of this thread is a complete disservice.

If the point is, as suggested above, to give 'hope' to some, it is a false and fanciful hope and if you are going to plan your future on such hopes and flukes, you might as well hang it up now.

The politics of baseball you see unfold in this thread along with implied and subtle threats.

The talent of baseball speaks for itself and needs no one to interpret its meaning. But there are those that will take the politics of baseball and use it to undermine the talent of baseball. It happens all the the time, starting at the LL level and exponentially gets worse as you go up in levels.

As the competition gets more intense the politics of baseball meets it with equanimity and each word spoken is used for grist on the mill...that's the politics of baseball.

But if a kid can can show 7/7's in 3 tools all the politics doesn't matter.

But if your kid is less than 5/5 in 3 tools then you better get to know one of these guys who are connected to the college scouting combine...and that's also the politics of baseball.

"A division 1 team has 11.7 scholarships and typically a travel roster of 25 and a full roster of 35-40"

Hey Batter - Long time no see, probably on my part ... You may want to change the above statement that a Division 1 team CAN HAVE 11.7 scholarships.. Most, even some of the top programs do not fund 11.7.

Go where you have a chance to play.

Pic-

I dig your vocab. What did you score on the SAT Verbal? My guess-a 750. Would you be interested in tutoring my son?

I see these politics unfolding before my own eyes. It is truly amazing! Let's face it-Kids within an organization will be promoted before those outside of that organization. Just cross your fingers and hope that you are with the one that can help.

BabyBackRib-

Do I sense some hostility here? Why not create some thought-inspiring posts instead of "ribbing" me every chance you get?

Definitions applicable to this thread:

Political baseball appointees: players found sitting the bench....inning after inning....game after game. 1

Pompous: characterized by pretentiousness, as in speech or manner. 2

Footnotes:
1.Reality, 1st edition

2.New World Dictionary, 3rd college edition

I see some interesting missinterpretations taking place here.

Just so you know - having talent and having that talent seen by those who understand and know baseball is certainly an advantage for any kid. And yes, it might even get you a scholarship offer, sight unseen by the coach making the offer.

Rubbing noses with those who really know baseball and NOT having the talent level to compete might make you some friends, but it won't get you a scholarship.

Many of these guys are professionals. None of them are going to tarnish their reputation by passing off a less talented player as the real deal.

So talk politics all you want - but understand that talent is still in charge.

Ten players of basically equal talent. One of them is a known commodity by someone with a solid baseball repuation. He gets selected. Politics? NO !!! That's no different than picking out a TV and finding 10 equal models and you select a brand name you recognize.

There are so many scenarios out there that to try to take a stance here is pretty much a waste of time.
In the incredibly vast majority of instances, a college coach must see a player play to offer him significnat scholarship money.
Having said that, there are also many situations that occur where personal references come into play. I've seen numerous situations where it was apparent that a players talent was decent, but his bloodlines/network/bank account was every bit as important in his signing the LOI.
Let's also take into account the definition of "scholarship". A $500 annual award for books is, by definition, every bit the scholarship that the 95% award is.
I've seen situations where a kid received an "offer" from a school where the HS coach knew the college coach and a 10% offer was made to an out of state school. Both coaches knew it wouldn't work for the family, but both guys had done what they thought they had to do to make everyone happy.HS coach covers his bases with the family...college coach does his buddy a soild by offering.
Then again, some 10% offers are signed immediately since mom and dad don't need the financial help and the scholarship "offer" was all that was required to satisfy them. The papers still report the signing of the LOI regardless of the award.
Let's also remember that when we get past the top 100 or so players in the country, we enter into a much larger group of players with similar skill sets. Every little advantage can be a big help. Parents are always amazed at the huge number of kids who can play the game well at showcase tournaments. They often ignore the fact that coaches in attendance normally arrive with an idea of who they are there to see, and receive further intelligence when they get there. Trying to stand out in the crowd on your own can be pretty tough in most instances.