You make the call ... as a parent ... as a coach

Buckeye 2015 posted:

roothog66 posted:

Here is where we get WAY too caught up on individual game pitch counts. Overuse injuries are a product of consistent overuse. They don't come from that one game where a kid throws 115 or even 150 pitches. It's a big picture event. Constant abuse like consistently throwing a kid 110+ pitches on a regular basis with inadequate rest is a real worry over an extended period of time. The occasional need to stretch a pitcher out is different. That's why I laugh when I see uproar over some situation where a senior high school pitcher with no aspirations or chances at playing at the next level is left out there for 125, or even more, pitches in what may be his last pitching performance. If there is a true risk for injury, it was done long before this.

Just curious....what job/career will the kid you mention have later in life?  I'm fairly certain that almost anything he ends up doing will likely require a fully functional arm.  They also won't be happy if/when he needs to take a prolonged vacation to recover from surgery when he's 29 and reinjures his arm while playing RF for the company softball team.  I know 3 guys who have had arm issues in their 20's that were directly related to overuse in HS....and none of them had aspirations of playing at the next level....but they all 3 really do like being able to use their arm without pain

I gotta ask, Buckeye, did you actually read my post? In no way was I supporting the overuse of high school kids during their careers regardless of their future intent. Are you saying that a kid who has been responsibly used for years and is asked to go 125 pitches at the very end of his career is at some huge risk on that one day? Your argument is that the problem isn't chronic overuse, but that arm injuries are acute? Maybe I'm misreading, but the guys you are talking about - are they pointing to one single performance, without which they would have been just fine or are they complaining of chronic overuse throughout their careers? My point was that overuse is bad, but that it is a big picture problem occurring over extended periods and that you can't boil the cause down to one single performance.

Roothogg.....fair enough.  I guess we don't know enough about this situation to make a call on whether it's right or not.  As I said, I wouldn't have a problem with my son doing it once or twice....and I'd likely be powerless to talk him out of it.  I guess my comment was directed toward your point about it being a kid "with no aspirations of the next level".....like it was ok for him to be overused and hurt because he won't be pitching again.  I did reread your post....I'm thinking I took it out of context......sorry for the confusion.

I guess the only thing I will say is that if a kid is being used too much on a single day....it's pretty likely that the same coach is overusing him more often than that.  Typically the coaches who just "don't get it"....are chronic abusers of kids arms....I know my son's JV coach was exactly that.  He'd always claim that one time was ok....the problem was that one time was always one time after the last time he said it.

Buckeye - makes an excellent point but I want to take a step further back.

In this case we have a kid that is a top 5 -10 pick worth millions of dollars on one side of a the scale and a college baseball game on the other. 

No brainer here - not sure what is there to talk about.  He never should have left the dugout for the 9th.  After the 8th the kid needs to find a way to say - that's it coach, no more today - better get the pen going.  If he's my kid all I'd have to say to him is "atta-boy - way to take care of yourself".

There is not a MLB team that would subject a pitcher at 21 or 22 to this anymore.  If they won't - why would anyone think it is ok for State U to do it? 

Consider this as a possible explanation:  These kids are multi-million dollar assets to a MLB club and just meat to a college program.  When you have value beyond the next 30 or 45 days then you get treated accordingly.  College coach proved point - his crappy team's W today is more important than the health of his players - including his best one.  

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Roothogg.....fair enough.  I guess we don't know enough about this situation to make a call on whether it's right or not.  As I said, I wouldn't have a problem with my son doing it once or twice....and I'd likely be powerless to talk him out of it.  I guess my comment was directed toward your point about it being a kid "with no aspirations of the next level".....like it was ok for him to be overused and hurt because he won't be pitching again.  I did reread your post....I'm thinking I took it out of context......sorry for the confusion.

I guess the only thing I will say is that if a kid is being used too much on a single day....it's pretty likely that the same coach is overusing him more often than that.  Typically the coaches who just "don't get it"....are chronic abusers of kids arms....I know my son's JV coach was exactly that.  He'd always claim that one time was ok....the problem was that one time was always one time after the last time he said it.

Yeah, it was a badly organized argument on my part because the "aspirations" point had nothing to do with the crux of my point and only confused the issue. I also agree that such single-game overuse is, more often than not, a red flag indicator of a problem rather than an isolated event. While pitch counts have some inherent problems, they do, at the very least, prevent outlandish overuse risk. We shouldn't have to look at such a game and then look back to see if it's an isolated event or a pattern. It's easy to miss the problem this way. We should feel somewhat secure - with pitch counts and, more importantly, mandated rest periods in place - that chronic overuse is extremely difficult to accomplish, even if not outright impossible.

luv baseball posted:

In this case we have a kid that is a top 5 -10 pick worth millions of dollars on one side of a the scale and a college baseball game on the other. 

So at what talent level do coaches not need to factor in the kids career after college? And that's a sincere question.

Kid throwing 95 you better not affect his payday. What about 92 with good movement? Maybe he's a 20th rd guy but has great work ethic and you think he can move through the system quickly. Maybe he'll sign a multi-year deal one day, if you keep him healthy?

What about the backup 3b at your Top 10 program who could start at most other D1s? If only he got more ABs he could really get some attention. Should you sit the regular 3B to foster this kid's MLB dream?

Dramatic analogy, I know. But seriously. If the coach believes for the team the best option is to have Johnny throw the 9th, and he's comfortable with it from a health standpoint, he should go against that just to be over protective of the kid because he's so good? How do you feel if your kid is the #2 on that team? That doesn't bother you a little when he lets your kid pitch the 9th because he's not a first rounder?

So at what talent level do coaches not need to factor in the kids career after college? And that's a sincere question.

Ironhorse - I think the partial answer is in Buckeye's post which I concur with.  The fuller answer is along the line of the medical motto:  Do no harm. 

IMO - When a player is done playing he should be able to throw without pain because he was not injured from overuse regardless of talent level.  I do understand that won't always be the case and injuries occur.  Nevertheless I believe coaches have an obligation to be cautious.  If this was the CWS and he had been careful all year then I can see 110 to 115.  But if he's making these decisions all year and pushing him to start the 7th rather than the 9th on 93 pitches with any regularity - then he's overdoing it. 

My point about the 1st rounder is that it simply makes it worse to put at risk in any way that kind of future.    

Sitting position players isn't the same.  It is very unlikely that he will be hurt by a pitch with the helmet and gear they wear.  Any injury from running, or contact on the field is also unlikely to be irreparable.  Pitching is far and away the most impacted position from an injury standpoint.

RJM posted:

IEBSBL posted:

RJM posted:

I'm going out on a limb on this post. I'm questioning one of the top coaches in college baseball. But no one is perfect. The game was played in upper forty weather with a 20 mph wind. Several times I questioned why I bothered to stay. It was so cold I woke up today with stiff knees. I was watching the game with two pitcher's dads of the home team and one whose son was the ace last year and now in the minors. The game ended about six. 

A top program is 6-6 in conference play. They see an opportunity to win three. A potential top five draft choice is just smoking the home team on a one hitter. He enters the 9th having thrown 92 pitches. It's a 3-0 game. The coach went to the mound with one on and one out at 102 pitches. I figured that's it for the starter. 

He was left out there. I asked the three dads what they thought. They agreed the team was looking for a "must sweep" to get back in conference contention. The pitcher went the distance on 115 pitches in brutal weather. I asked the dads what they thought about 115 pitches in bad weather. They weren't so warm to the idea anymore. One added it's hard to question the coach in the other dugout.

It was a must win situation. The closer is having a tough year. If you're the parent of a pitcher who's a possible can't miss pro prospect and a multi million dollar signing bonus how do you feel about this? I realize the team comes first. But is it putting a pitcher at risk going 115 pitches in these weather conditions.

Just an add: Wow! Can this kid pitch! He would be tough enough to face on a warm day. Imagine freezing in the dugout and having to pinch hit against him late in the game.

Obviously I'm interested in anyone's comments. But I'm really interested in the comments of posters with pro and potential pro pitchers.

 

Are you asking what I would do if I was the parent of an Adult?

There's nothing a parent should do. I asked how as a parent posters would feel about. Everyone cares about their kids. 

Sorry I guess I misunderstood your question.  I was thrown off by the "pro prospect", "Can't miss", and "Multi Million" comments.  If we are talking about parents and "Kids", which this in not a kid it is an adult, I would think the other comments would not be a defining reason.  I would think if he was the worst pitcher in the country and was left out there a parent will still, "Care".