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Youth baseball age cutoff moves

S Savannah100+ posts
-Reprint: Author Allan Simpson, Baseball America, Feb.'05 Issue #0504 -(got it today)

USA Baseball has enacted a change in the age cutoff date for youth organizations that could have far-reaching ramifications for the game, possibly even affecting the major leagues down the road.
For more than 60 years, the universal cutoff date for youth baseball competition has been July 31. But USA Baseball, at the behest of its member organizations, passed a resolution at the recent American Baseball Coaches Association convention in Nashville to roll back that date to April 30. The change will go into effect in 2006 at the earliest and 2007 at the latest.
"The entire membership of USA Baseball voted on the change," said Paul Seiler, the organization's executive director. "It is domestic in its impact only."
The impetus for change was brought by Little League Baseball in 2001. The goal of the change is to increase participation by retaining more players in the 12-and-under division, and to bring U.S.-based youth baseball more in line with the standards used in international baseball. Little League proposed Dec. 31 as the age determination date, but it was later amended to April 30.
"Our research has shown that more than 95 percent of all Little League programs start their seasons before May 1," said a spokesman for Little League Baseball. "The change gives the opportunity to those children born in May, June and July to play all or part of their 12-year-old seasons as actual 12-year-olds."
When July 31 was established as the age cutoff date by Little League Baseball in the 1940s, they selected that time because it coincided with the date used by schools in Williamsport, Pa., to divide grade levels. At that time, Little League was the only youth league of its kind and its membership was mostly local.
But as Little League has expanded, and the cutoff dates for schools in the U.S. and elsewhere have changed, the primary reason for July 31 deadline has dissipated. Generally, players born immediately after that date have been shown to have a decided advantage over players born in the months just before it because they are more physically mature and able to dominate their competition at the youth level.
Baseball America research has shown that a majority of players on youth league all-star teams of all age groups are born in the four months immediately after July 31. That advantage carried forward to the major league level, as more 2004 big leaguers were born in August (123) than any other month, and the fewest were born in July (89). -Allan Simpson, Baseball America
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M micdsguy1,000+ posts
quote:
That advantage carried forward to the major league level, as more 2004 big leaguers were born in August (123) than any other month, and the fewest were born in July (89). -Allan Simpson, Baseball America


That's worth repeating. I've mentioned before here, that being the oldest kid on a team is a big advantage. In pitching, that can mean being 4-8 mph over the younger pitchers. Around 9th grade, it can mean 3-4 extra inches of height. Much harder to get cut from the freshman team,

But you'd think the advantage would fade after high school.

Interesting that advantage carries over to the Majors.

Maybe Dads should think about red shirting their little t-ballers Smile
Last edited by micdsguy
M micdsguy1,000+ posts
I've read somewhere that parents strongly prefer that their kids--especially boys-- be among the eldest in their school class, even though Moms are eager to have the school help with the baby sitting.

An older kid is more likely to have better grades, although I've never seen any stats. Therefore, the younger kid is more likely to struggle with academic eligibility.

I'm going to guess that in the average HS grade, the difference in age between the oldest and youngest kids may be 2 years. Huge.

I'm still a bit dubious about those stats regarding birth months of major leaguers. That could just mean that more babies are born in August than July.
HeyBatterHeyBatter1,000+ posts
no matter when the cutoffs are set, someone will always have a gripe. Little League for example sets its age grouping from Aug 1 of a given year to July 31 of the next. So the June and July kids (make that parents) gripe. So if the change is made to Jan 1 to December 31, the November/December kids will have the new gripe.

Parents hold kids back, they move them up and it is all just so much BS IMO.

Josh Booty in college football is a great example- he was held back during grade school to be the oldest and biggest in his subsequent grade groups. Then decided to leave high school a year early (which put him back to where he should have been) to enroll at USC, thinking he could compete as a freshman for the starting job. Instead he's now 3 years behind the player (leinart) who won the starting job and Booty will finally get a chance as a junior, only then there's a whole new crop for him to compete against and he may never win the job.

It seems the more you try to manipulate the system and manuver these age cutoffs the bigger mess you create. Talent will ultimately win out. Accept the age you are and the cut off in place, play the hand you're dealt and it will all work out. It has for thousands and thousands in the past.
S SBK500+ posts
TR,

You are right, nobody will ever be happy. However if they made it Jan. 1st, a kid born in December wouldn't be happy but at least the parents could take consolation in the fact that they were able to claim him as a dependent on their income tax right away.


Savannah, Are you sure this covers all through our Olympic team. I thought the international cutoff is still the first of the year?
Last edited by SBK
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
micdsguy,
The kids who make the all-star team year after year are the ones who go on in baseball. Even the very, very good kids who are born in July have had a large disadvantage when it comes to making all-star teams and getting on travel teams. It seems like being the stud player is more advantageous than playing with older kids unless a player is good enough to be a stud with the older kids.

When they get to HS they are back on even ground but they don't get much of an advantage because a lot of those August, September, October, November birthday kids have been held back (especially the ones who also play football).

Rumor has it that the AD of our HS and another football coach are going to hold back their 14yo 8th grade sons by enrolling them in a private school for a year so that they can be 15yo freshmen and get more playing time in football.
Dad04Dad045,000+ posts
quote:
would be nice if college scouts took precise age into consideration. They should be a lot more impressed with an academically-brilliant 15-yo junior who throws 80 than an 18 year old junior who throws 85.


But they're not are they? College coaches are impressed with players that help them win games, as soon as possible, regardless of age height, weight, GPA, SAT or date of birth. Period.
gratefulgrateful1,000+ posts
The only disadvantage a kid has, regarding birth dates, is the attitude that he is at a disadvantage. Pre-determined excuses just don't cut it.

I had an August birthday.....I should have been one of the oldest in my baseball playing group....instead I played with the older groups and was almost always the youngest one out there.....was I at a disadvantage? Heck no!!

I was a late-bloomer, too!!!
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Having been a 15yo junior (that is I didn't turn 16 until after my senior year had begun) who probably threw less than 80 I've got to ask you how many 15yo juniors do you think there are? I certainly didn't get looks from scouts as a senior while kids who in 10th grade were older than me but not as good of players did. (I did get my looks from scouts later on and wasn't good enough.)

College and pro scouts certainly do take age into consideration but if a player is a bubble player relative to that level of ball due to being a year younger it isn't going to make up for the difference in performance on the field.

The pro scouts will probably make a bit more of an allowance for age but they'll also take the added risk of a younger player into consideration. Of course Delmon Young was a young player for his grade so if you've got that kind of talent it doesn't really matter.
Last edited by CADad
Dad04Dad045,000+ posts
Callaway

I respect your opinion. Successful coaches are very proactive in monitoring academic progress and class atendance, on a weekly and daily basis. They do everything they can to help the kids stay eligible and hopefully graduate. I just keep hearing of kids admitted to schools, NCAA qualifiers with academic advisors, etc. barely scraping by, or flunking out all together.

I think coaches sign borderline students, put them in the system and hope for the best. I don't fault them for it. Of course they would all prefer to have 3.5 GPA, 1200 SAT signees who can't wait for the next class.

I'll agree with you that grades and GPA's can help, but based on what I've seen they are secondary to the players skills on the field.

The exceptions of course, are the individual schools admission guidlines such as the Patriot League, the Ivies, Richmond, Rice, etc.

If the kid can't play, then why would the coach be impressed with his grades? JMO
M micdsguy1,000+ posts
quote:
I've got to ask you how many 15yo juniors do you think there are?


Very rare. Less than 1% around here, usually because they skipped a grade. But such a kid is probably going to improve more than an older junior. He may even grow another 3-6 inches.

I was using 15 as an extreme example; but there are a fair number of mid-16-yo juniors.

Wonder how many juniors are 18? I don't know.
Last edited by micdsguy
H HotCornerDad100+ posts
Just a thought.

Kid A turns 11 April 30th.
Kid B Turns 13 On May 1st.

Kid A plays half of his first year in the Bronco division of PONY baseball at age 10. He now is facing Kid B: who plays the second half of his Bronco Division at age 13. We all know that PONY Bronco Division is 11 and 12 YO.

I had 12 YO that were throwing in the low 70s from that 48' mound. And in the PONY Division 13 and 14 YO kid throwing in the low 70s at 54'. Now we put these 13 YO back down to a 48' mound and the result is +6 to 10 MPH on their fastball. I don't think this is a good move for safety reasons. At 11 and 12 you still have kids learning the game and are not at a level to be able to get out of the way of a wild pitch at 65 MPH let alone a potential fastball at 75+ MPH.

Just a thought. I know that this is a 'done deal' I just think there is a safety issue that may not have been taken into account. IMHO.
Last edited by HotCornerDad
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
HotCorner,
I agree with you in general but you are only getting a 3 month age difference so you'll see at most a 2 or 3 mph speed increase in Bronco over what they are currently seeing.

In other words the kid who turns 13 on May 1st probably wasn't a low 70s pitcher the previous year as a young 12yo. Your low 70s pitchers with only a very few exceptions were probably August through November birthdays.

We have one kid this year just learning the game as a 14yo in Pony. Fortunately, he's on the same team as the league's high 70s pitcher. Even so, there are several mid 70s pitchers he'll have to face including one 13yo.
H HotCornerDad100+ posts
Maybe, we will get a chance to see it first hand in the next year or two depending on league adoption practices. I haven't see any office word from PONY on when they expect their charters to comply. My youngest is mad that he may spend another year in Pinto, (7&8) his birthday is May 2nd, he will be one of those 8 year olds playing half the season at 9.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
HotCornerDad,
I don't think Pony has bought into the new ages yet, although they'll probably have to.

This is my son's first year in Pony so I'm not that familiar with the all-star tournament formats but I expect that our league should do pretty well in Pony as they've got most of the best kids from a couple different leagues that each went pretty far back in Bronco a couple years ago. The 13yos are in a similar position plus they pulled in the LLWS pitcher who won the US championship game.
S Savannah100+ posts
SBK

The Executive Director's statement was, "the decision is only domestic in its impact". You are right, the international date is Dec. 31. Little League Baseball actually did recommend Dec. 31, but, the other members amended it to April 30. It was voted and passed by the U.S. delegation unanimously. Now, it has to pass the international vote which is usually a rubber stamp.

I have to assume (*opinion here) that moving more than 3 months probably seemed too drastic after 60 years at July 31. The April 30th date solves the problem for the most part, of having 12-year-olds play as 12-year-olds instead of some kids never being able to play their final season as an actual 12-year-old.

Folks, take away your own child's birthday a minute, and you'll have to agree this is a good move. That's why it was unanimously passed.

The article comes from Baseball America, but there is a lot more info. about the change on the Little League Baseball web site.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
It'll have little or no effect on the kids with August or September birthdays. The negative effect will be for the kids with the March, April birthdays just like it always was for the June, July birthdays. It will end up losing a lot of players in the 14yo age group because now a 4th of the kids who are considered 14yo are that much more likely to be playing HS ball. You'll also see a LLWS where the kids are predominantly 13yo instead of just having a few 13yo on each team. The LLWS will be even more of a mismatch as the best pitchers will be throwing 2 or 3 mph harder at 46' and will simply throw the ball by the hitters even more so than they do today.

All that has happened is that you've switched who it is good for and who it is bad for. Nothing has been improved. You've traded not having 11yo for having kids who are 13yo for their entire season. The difference between a young 11yo and an old 12yo is less than the difference between the youngest 12yo and the oldest 13yo you'll see with the new age group because you are more likely to see differences in maturity level as the kids move into puberty. You've increased the disparities within the age groups.

The age change itself is a small negative. When you add in the confusion and trouble implementing the change will cause for the first year or two it is very definitely a mistake.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
HotCornerDad,
It will drive out 14yo from rec ball and will simply trade 13yo for 11yo in Bronco or the equivalent. The first year or two you'll lose more players than you'll gain simply because there is a change being made. After things settle down you'll have fewer players overall due to the loss of 14yos. The Bronco and equivalent divisions will stay about the same, but if anything will drop in numbers because you get fewer players as they get older and having an age group that averages 3 mo. older will result in fewer players.

The best move would be to move the age 3 months the other way to make it more consistent with school ages. That would result in more players in all divisions and 12yo playing in the LLWS. You'd lose even more kids in the short run because some kids would lose a year of baseball so you'd have to have a temporary way of allowing some of the kids to keep playing until you had a whole generation who had started at the new age playing but it would certainly make for fairer divisions and more players in the long run.
Last edited by CADad
C cbg500+ posts
Who cares what the date for the age cutoff is? Let's be real here folks, it is kids playing baseball. If the kid is a stud they will be seen and everything will take care of itself. My sons DOB is 3-24 and I just feel like it will give him additional opportunities to show that he can play with the older more mature kids.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Savannah,
By moving the age cutoff by three months you simply make everyone in the 12u divisions 3 months older. We all know that the older kids get the less likely they are to continue in baseball. One could argue that nothing will change since it will be the same "age group" but I'd say that it is a function of age and that in the long run you'll have fewer players in your 12u division simply because they are older.

As far as the 14yo's go if more of them are playing HS ball then there'll be less competition in Pony league for the 13yo and the 14yo 8th graders. As a result they'll be less ready for HS ball. That's just a personal bias on my part as my son is a 13yo 8th grader who needs to see all the competition he can this year.
Last edited by CADad
S Savannah100+ posts
Ya, I see what you are saying, but the result of moving the cutoff up earlier by three months means that you will have less 11-year-olds playing their last 12U season. I think it is much more unfair that these kids never get a chance to play 12U baseball as 12-year-olds. Also, the research done by Little League Baseball indicates that this will increase the number of kids. Or why would they do it!
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Savannah,
Little League required people to provide umpteen types of proof of birth if their birth certificates were registered more than 30 days after their birthdate. My son's was registered 31 days after his birth and we had to get things notarized, etc.. It wasn't cheap. This was in response to the Danny Almonte fiasco. It created a mess and they had to change it to a year after the date of birth. LL's track record with dates is not very good.

The reality is that those who were put at the greatest disadvantage were going to be the most aggressive about changing the rules. In a few years it will be the turn of the February, March, April parents to push through their change. At that point they'll probably go to the International standard.

Can't wait to see those 13 yrs 7 mos old kids playing in the LLWS as 12yo, throwing 80 mph at 46' and hitting with 200' fences using flex bats.
Last edited by CADad
S Savannah100+ posts
Where does 13 yrs 7 mos come from. Lets say your birthday is May 1st (the best possible position). It is true that you would be a 13-year-old plus 2 or maybe 3 months. The season is over by the end of July for tournament play. Actually, ours is over the end of June. So, The May kid would be 13 yrs. 2 months at most. Take another look at your math.
S Savannah100+ posts
Oh, if they make it to the LLWS, yes it would be more. However, the kids from, say Panama, could be as old as 13 yrs. 9 mos. Their cutoff is Dec. 31. for the next year. We have always been on an unlevel playing field with kids from outside of the U.S. At least we are a little closer now.

Also, it hasn't changed in 60 years. I doubt it will change again for a long while.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Savannah,
I was extrapolating to a time when the international cutoff was used. Do they really allow the international teams to use the Dec. 31st cutoff date in LL?

I went through the ages of the kids from a couple of the foreign teams, Taipei and Curacao, and the players birthdates all fit within the July 31st cutoff date.
Last edited by CADad
S Savannah100+ posts
This was the rationale used in the statement by Little League for their reason for chosing Dec. 31 (even though the date of April 30 was chosen). I am not involved with the Little League Baseball organization, however, like a lot of baseball programs, we follow their lead. It is possible that they have to go by U.S. rules when playing us. Again, I don't know, I am not a member or rep. for them.

Finally, my two cents; - Dec. 31 makes the most sense to me, however, April 30 is better than July 31. I don't really see the problem with December 31, but obviously there was one, because USA Baseball voted unanimously on it.

Lets don't get crazy about this. Baseball America's own stat's showed (123) MLB players with August birthdays, and (89) with July birthdays. -(thats not all that impressive a stat to me).
K KC_Dad10+ posts
I know my 2 cents aren't worth much but I am going to give it out anyways Smile

I really think any and all sports activities should be based on school age cutoff. These boys are going to be playing together when they hit the high school ages and there is always going to be the young players and the old players on the same team. There are always going to be the fatter kids and the skinnier kids. There are always going to be the taller kids and the shorter kids. Point being someone is always on the short end of the stick, whether by birthdate or by genetics and only one thing will eventually be in common ... they will be forced to play ball together when they are in High School.
If the reason LL changed their dates is because of international competition than force the other nations to comply with us (just like they will have to do when they are grown-ups on many other levels other than BB ... GO USA Big Grin)
None of this makes since to me but as I stated before ... my two cents is not worth much.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Not directly related but since some people think that kids should play youth baseball according to their school grade and not their age I noticed that there was a 2008 who had showcased and done pretty well, topping out in the mid to high 80s. Of course when I looked a little closer I noticed he was born in 1988 and could have been a 2006. We have several kids who will be the same age as this freshman when they are juniors.
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
As long as everyone is playing by the same rules who cares? If that is why they changed it thats great. Why didnt they just make the internationals conform to our rules? But it doesnt make any difference as long as they are the same. As far as age in HS here in NC they can not be 19 before Oct of their Sr year. If parents are concerned about their son being young as a freshman just hold him back a grade before he enters HS. When my oldest was in the 7th grade he was struggling a little with the books and we made the decision to hold him back a year mostly so he could mature a little and catch up academically. It helped him out a great deal. He will turn 19 in June just after graduation. Ive had 17 yr old Srs and Ive had 19 yr old Srs. Some of the 17 yr old guys have been more mature than the 19 year old kids. Everyone situation is different.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Coach May,
It is darn hard to come up with a valid justification for holding back an honors student. We had our chance when ours wasn't really mature enough in first grade and should have held him back then. Too late now.

Personally I'd rather see HS sports be age based where kids could play HS ball from 15 through 18, with a December 31st cutoff, and even play after graduating HS if they weren't playing in college. If they were attending college but still playing HS ball they wouldn't lose a year of college athletic eligibility.

Not ever going to happen but that would level the playing field for everyone and not put anyone at a disadvantage because they were ahead or behind in school. That would also end the practice of holding kids back a couple years for football that is so prevalent in some states.

I think after all the controversy with Danny Almonte he may have ended up being a 16 or 17yo HS freshman and gaining a big advantage again.
Last edited by CADad
A AParent1,000+ posts
Any date they select is arbritary and therefore the change is an illusion.

After all - the kid who misses the cut off by one day now, will be in the same position as the kid who missed the old cut off by one day.
Nothing has changed except which dates are the "good" birthdays vs. the "bad" birthdays.

Keep in mind some of those "good" birthday kids are late bloomers and some of those "bad" birthday kids mature early anyhow and it works out for many of them.

If you get a double whammy with the "bad" birthday and a late bloomer better plan on working twice as hard as everyone else. It may not be fair, but that's what it takes.

Do
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
I didnt hold my oldest son back because of sports. I did it because he was struggling a bit in the classroom and he was I thought a little immature. It did help him out on the football field because he was a year older as a senior a year bigger and stronger and more mature. It really helped him in the classroom. I would never have even thought about it if he was an honor student and mature for his age. It is a personal decision that is different for each family. As far as Almonte goes wasnt he 14 playing LL? There is a huge difference between a mature 14 yr old and a 12 year old. Not as much difference 17-19 as there is 12-14 in my opinion. What was he throwing 74-75 as a 14 yr old from 46'? Ive seen a ton of kids in AAU and Freshman in HS that could do that. It would be interesting to see what he is doing now.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Coach May,
He'll be an 18yo junior this season. He's got from a one to two year advantage. As a freshman he had about a 6 to 8 mph advantage over the other freshman due to the age advantage. As a junior he has a 3 to 8 mph advantage over the other juniors due to the age difference.

Not as much difference at 17-19 but still a big difference. About 5 mph, not to mention much better command of the off speed stuff, for me between turning 17 and 19 and I stopped playing at 18.

His birthdate is currently listed as 4/7/87 so most kids his age would be fighting to make their college team. He's a junior in HS. He supposedly had an 84 mph fastball at 16 which is pretty good but still nothing special on the national level. My guess is he's topping out at about 87 or 88 now and projects to have a ml average fastball at best in the future. He's a lefty and got a lot of publicity so he may get a look.

As far a the kids go mine is an honor student but he is immature for his age in many ways.
Last edited by CADad
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
Hes 5'10 but yes he is left handed. Hes 87-88 and a Junior. Im sorry but here in NC he would be projected as a possible D-1 pitcher and alot would depend on what hes throwing as a senior. I had a lefty 6'4 210 6.5 60 time 92-93 with a nasty hook and change. Went in the last pick of the second round. People 5'10 160 87-88 that aint draft time yet baby. Long way to go. Ive got a freshman thats 5'10 170 85-87 15 years old. A soph thats 6'3 175 87-88 15 years old. There names are not Almonte so I guess you have not heard about them. Thats my problem with this whole thing. You would not know who is he and neither would I if he had not cheated those other 12 year olds out of a dream. Im not mad about it or bitter no skin off my back. Its just the facts.
K Kungaloosh100+ posts
Our school cutoff is August 31st.

My oldest has a September 19th birthdate. They were changing the cutoff from September 30th to August 31st about the time my oldest was starting Kindergarten. Since he had been in organized day care, I had a choice of starting him in Kindergarten or waiting a year. Due to being broke in those days, and at the recommendation of his day care teachers, I chose to send him on to Kindergarten.

As the years went on, I realized he was one of the youngest in his class, but didn't worry about it too much cause he was doing well and still was always the biggest in his class.

If had to do it over again, I would have kept him back cause now he would have still been a senior, still playing ball, and we would still have this year to work on getting to the next level. (Especially now that I know more due to HSBBW) (Although he is giving it one more shot this summer. He has his name on lists to try out for a couple of 18U travel teams this summer.)

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