High School player health concern. Weight lifting prior to game?

So when exactly would you like for him to work out? I doubt the workout is the problem. 

Not saying the workout is the problem, but I believe it was a contributor. I just don't understand the irresponsible way it was handled and being in season it could have been customized for a particular player, especially a pitcher going the next day. 

Bulldog 19 posted:

So when exactly would you like for him to work out? I doubt the workout is the problem. 

Not the day before he's pitching....that's for sure.  And certainly not a high rep squat and clean workout.  I would have been livid....and the AD, coach and whoever else would listen would have known about it. 

Just like w a teacher u don't go to principal first, don't go to AD first. Your son is what, 17?  He needs to go to HC and tell him workouts day before pitching are not working for him, he's coming in stiff and not 100%.  He should also readdress prior shoulder issues and tell him what dr/PT  has said he should go forward in order to be successful. That may be no more pitching until Summer. 

Why is HC teaching this class? Does he have Degree in Exercise Science, or just PE teacher? He obviously does not know how to develop a pitcher. 

My advice, let son handle it first, if that doesn't work u need to talk w HC since it's a health/injury issue. Going to AD should be a last resort. 

Seems to me the workout probably wasn't the problem, but the fact that he got left in past a point of fatigue. Oh, and that he has a private pitching coach. But I'm sure overuse never happens...

It's almost end of the school year so how often do they do a high rep squat / any lift workout routine?  Even if it's just a semester long class he should be in good enough shape that something like this shouldn't affect him that much.  Did he only get 10 minutes to warm up or is that an exaggeration?  You made it sound like a (for example) 6 start time and the bus pulls up at 5:45.  If that's true then that's ridiculous.  What was his pitch count going into the inning he gave up 4 runs?

This coach may be an idiot but we only have your side.

So many issues with this story.

Been in the class all semester, but this workout overwhelmed him? A high rep workout is usually lower weight aka what a lot of ballplayers do during the season? This just doesn't add up.

What is "noticeably stiff and tight" really mean? To everyone or just you?

How did his private pitching coach evaluate him? What are his medical credentials to evaluate a player? (3 years at AAA doesn't count).

What's his pitch count normally? What was it that day? How long were his innings??

Are you going to confront the coach or just talk big to internet strangers? (I know the answer to this one.)

You know like 90-95% of professional pitchers lift before their evening games, right? Not many want to work out at 10:00 PM at night in a minor league town.

Kyle Boddy posted:

You know like 90-95% of professional pitchers lift before their evening games, right? Not many want to work out at 10:00 PM at night in a minor league town.

wouldn't it be better to lift after the game? or would that hinder the recovery process?

My general rule for in-season strength training for pitchers - do the most intense workout (most likely squatting and/or cleans) the day AFTER your appearance in the rotation.  But, no reason to not workout the day before an appearance.  Proper programming prevents p*** poor performance.

As an aside - I know of few HS baseball head coaches that can PROPERLY teach the SAFE execution of a clean to a HS kid (which is a shame - the clean should be foundational along with squats and deadlifts).  What's his background?

ironhorse posted:

So many issues with this story.

Been in the class all semester, but this workout overwhelmed him? A high rep workout is usually lower weight aka what a lot of ballplayers do during the season? This just doesn't add up.

What is "noticeably stiff and tight" really mean? To everyone or just you?

How did his private pitching coach evaluate him? What are his medical credentials to evaluate a player? (3 years at AAA doesn't count).

What's his pitch count normally? What was it that day? How long were his innings??

Are you going to confront the coach or just talk big to internet strangers? (I know the answer to this one.)

 

 

The OP was asking for opinions in whether his son should be doing high rep squats before pitching in a game.  The OP doesn't deserve your sanctimonious attack

mdschert posted:

The OP was asking for opinions in whether his son should be doing high rep squats before pitching in a game.  The OP doesn't deserve your sanctimonious attack

No he wasn't. You may have inferred that, but you're wrong. If he wanted to ask that question and get a legitimate answer he would have included a lot more information about the actual workout and the normal routine. And he would have actually asked that question.

If he would like to ask that question and provide a lot more detailed information about the situation, I would gladly offer an opinion, for whatever that's worth. If he wants to complain about how the coach is mistreating his son and go so far as to insinuate that the coach's methods are doing serious damage to children's arms in his care, then I'm going to respond with very pointed questions that may appear to you to be sanctimonious.

We have a similar problem.  Small/Medium school.  Field is off campus.  Coaches are off campus.  The only fitness facility on campus is comprised mostly of squat racks.  We try to do a lot with yoga, modified P90X stuff, med balls, tires, bands and speed and agility drills pre-season at the field but focus on baseball stuff in-season.  There are lots of multisports kids and, of course, the FB coach heads up a strength program at school that is supposed to be for all athletes and it runs pretty much year round.  FB players are generally required to be there.  

This program is organized and has a schedule to it regarding gains, max lift days, etc.   We appreciate that there is at least something for the players to participate in for strength training.  It is far from ideal and many players come to practices and games sore from their lifting.  We on the baseball coaching staff try to get the players to speak up with what they can and cannot do, particularly on game days.  We try to work with AD to keep things reasonable.  We try to communicate with FB HC but one look at him (huge bodybuilder) tells you he won't fully sympathize with our point of view.  Several of the baseball-only guys who are serious about playing will do their own conditioning at a gym with a trainer.  For many of the others, having this program in place is better than nothing.

I am a little confused though.. at this point of the semester, he should be recovering by next day.  If not, I agree with poster who suggested he talk to the coach.  Some others question qualifications.  Valid point but in the HS athletic environment, having people in place with all the right qualifications is not always the norm.  I think the benefit with this situation is that the guy running the conditioning is the baseball HC so he should be sympathetic to the player's concerns.

Lastly, this...  OP says "he has developed severe elbow and shoulder pain".  This trumps all.  Stop throwing and get that checked by a sports ortho right away.

cabbagedad posted:

We have a similar problem.  Small/Medium school.  Field is off campus.  Coaches are off campus.  The only fitness facility on campus is comprised mostly of squat racks.  We try to do a lot with yoga, modified P90X stuff, med balls, tires, bands and speed and agility drills pre-season at the field but focus on baseball stuff in-season.  There are lots of multisports kids and, of course, the FB coach heads up a strength program at school that is supposed to be for all athletes and it runs pretty much year round.  FB players are generally required to be there.  

This program is organized and has a schedule to it regarding gains, max lift days, etc.   We appreciate that there is at least something for the players to participate in for strength training.  It is far from ideal and many players come to practices and games sore from their lifting.  We on the baseball coaching staff try to get the players to speak up with what they can and cannot do, particularly on game days.  We try to work with AD to keep things reasonable.  We try to communicate with FB HC but one look at him (huge bodybuilder) tells you he won't fully sympathize with our point of view.  Several of the baseball-only guys who are serious about playing will do their own conditioning at a gym with a trainer.  For many of the others, having this program in place is better than nothing.

I am a little confused though.. at this point of the semester, he should be recovering by next day.  If not, I agree with poster who suggested he talk to the coach.  Some others question qualifications.  Valid point but in the HS athletic environment, having people in place with all the right qualifications is not always the norm.  I think the benefit with this situation is that the guy running the conditioning is the baseball HC so he should be sympathetic to the player's concerns.

Lastly, this...  OP says "he has developed severe elbow and shoulder pain".  This trumps all.  Stop throwing and get that checked by a sports ortho right away.

 

Having seen a lot of this, I think it is important to successful HS athletics to have a qualified strength and conditioning coach who works with all of the programs.  Focus should be on general athletic development with some tweaks depending on the sport.  Get everything coordinated and organized.  Minimize duplication.   IMO, will worth the investment. 

I would sell my soul for us to have a full time S&C guy that was knowledgeable in various sports. I would give up part of my stipend for that for sure. 

Dominik85 posted:

Kyle Boddy posted:

You know like 90-95% of professional pitchers lift before their evening games, right? Not many want to work out at 10:00 PM at night in a minor league town.

wouldn't it be better to lift after the game? or would that hinder the recovery process?

Generally speaking, yes. But lifting at 10:30 PM on the road in Single-A when the bus is there waiting to take you to the hotel is not usually an option.

Golfman and Ironhorse.. yes! and yes!

A proper lifting session should have you sore for the next day or two.  I feel that lifting the day before pitching is borderline abusive.   My athletes can do band work the day before and even the day of, but should not be working with any decent amount of weight.  If you're squatting the bar, that's fine, but even as light as 95lbs for high reps, no.  There is no benefit and only risk.  You're not going to add a single mph to your fastball or a single minute of stamina so what is the point?  

Kyle Boddy posted:

Dominik85 posted:

Kyle Boddy posted:

You know like 90-95% of professional pitchers lift before their evening games, right? Not many want to work out at 10:00 PM at night in a minor league town.

wouldn't it be better to lift after the game? or would that hinder the recovery process?

Generally speaking, yes. But lifting at 10:30 PM on the road in Single-A when the bus is there waiting to take you to the hotel is not usually an option.

Could you make it a "heavy Lifting" day on day 3 and then a light one before the game? or wouldn't that provide enough Training benefit?

I am not sure I agree with some things stated here.

First, this is HS, not college not professional ball.  Why are HS coaches, unless trained or have a certificate having a strength and conditioning class?  

The bulk of training comes before any season, and that training should be maintained in season. Some guys prefer not to lift before they pitch and your son needs to speak up.

As far as staying in the game, well that's what pitcher's do, unless they show signs of fatigue, if he did he needed to be replaced.

If your sons elbow is sore he needs to see a doctor asap. 

TPM posted:

I am not sure I agree with some things stated here.

First, this is HS, not college not professional ball.  Why are HS coaches, unless trained or have a certificate having a strength and conditioning class?  

The bulk of training comes before any season, and that training should be maintained in season. Some guys prefer not to lift before they pitch and your son needs to speak up.

As far as staying in the game, well that's what pitcher's do, unless they show signs of fatigue, if he did he needed to be replaced.

If your sons elbow is sore he needs to see a doctor asap. 

Problem is that "before any season" no longer exists in this world of 12 month baseball. And if choose to simply "maintain" you are losing. Athletes should be continuing to train the weight room and make gains year round.

the reason we see so many injuries (in all sports) is because our kids today play too much and don't spend enough time training to play.

The OP stated son takes a course for training tailored to their sport. Not sure what that means other than he did a lift the day before the game and felt sore. 

As stated this routine doesnt work for all pitchers and the OP wasn't clear that this was the usual routine.  This has nothing to do with not doing anything.

BTW I agree with you on not doing enough training as IMO some do too much.

It's all age appropriate.

TPM posted:

The OP stated son takes a course for training tailored to their sport. Not sure what that means other than he did a lift the day before the game and felt sore. 

As stated this routine doesnt work for all pitchers and the OP wasn't clear that this was the usual routine.  This has nothing to do with not doing anything.

BTW I agree with you on not doing enough training as IMO some do too much.

It's all age appropriate.

In many states gym is a mandatory requirement.  Our school offers two choices - a) screw around class or b) strength/conditioning class.  Kid takes the strength/conditioning class as that is the only time he has to work out.  Taught by gym teacher, but other than that I have no idea what his qualifications are and what he knows/doesn't know about overhead throwing.  It is what it is. 

Hopefully OP will answer some of the ? Raised here or give update on son and where he stands for now. Shoulder hurting before Summer ball needs to be addressed, esp since he's had former issue w it.