Long toss vs. actual pitching velocity

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Originally posted by wz8fvm:
How does long tossing distance correspond to actual pitching velocity? Its much easiler to measure distance than to have a radar gun. I know there is a program from Florida State that equates distance to velocity but I have no idea how accurate it is. Any input?

There are way too many factors involved to be real accurate with velocity and long toss. Arm slot, height of player and arm, spin, angle, wind, etc. all effect how far a ball is thrown. Here the site you mention that measures balls thrown at different angles and velocities. I have found it to be fairly accurate (within a few mph)

simulator

quote:

Originally posted by wz8fvm:
How does long tossing distance correspond to actual pitching velocity? Its much easiler to measure distance than to have a radar gun. I know there is a program from Florida State that equates distance to velocity but I have no idea how accurate it is. Any input?

You can be the greatest long tosser in the world, but the worst pitcher. I don't hate long toss, but I feel that there are better uses of time. It doesn't replicate the act of pitching particularly well. I would say that long toss beyond about 200 feet is useless.

There is a correlation to distance thrown to pitching velocity, but it varies due to wind, temperature, altitude, humidity and individual. One of the benefits to long tossing is that it gives you a way to measure your performance each time you go out. All you need is a field and a bucket of balls or a partner. I can’t actually think of a more effective way to get better at throwing a baseball than…D’Oh…throwing a baseball. Low finish is correct in that you can be the best long tosser in the world and the worst pitcher, but my experience is that the best long tossers typically are the best pitchers.

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Originally posted by BOF:
but my experience is that the best long tossers typically are the best pitchers.

Or... the best outfielders

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Originally posted by SultanofSwat:

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
but my experience is that the best long tossers typically are the best pitchers.

Or... the best outfielders

Agreed, some seem to think this is just for pitchers.

Long toss is for baseball players. The fact is the kids who are the best at long toss have the best arms. When your guys are on the field long tossing your best players will be long tossing together. They will be the ones with the best arms. And the guys that can throw to each other. The players that take the time to work on a consistent long toss program are the same guys that take the time to work harder in the cage. Take the time to work harder at the game. I don't know what others experience is with long toss outside of their own kids experience. But from my experience the players that long toss on a consistent basis simply have stronger arms than those that do not and have not. In fact its not even close. But that is just my experience with players over many years. If your experience leads you to see something different fine.

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Originally posted by Coach_May:
Long toss is for baseball players. The fact is the kids who are the best at long toss have the best arms. When your guys are on the field long tossing your best players will be long tossing together. They will be the ones with the best arms. And the guys that can throw to each other. The players that take the time to work on a consistent long toss program are the same guys that take the time to work harder in the cage. Take the time to work harder at the game. I don't know what others experience is with long toss outside of their own kids experience. But from my experience the players that long toss on a consistent basis simply have stronger arms than those that do not and have not. In fact its not even close. But that is just my experience with players over many years. If your experience leads you to see something different fine.

It's so true. I too have noticed that the kids who wotk diligently on throwing and long-tossing have the best arms on the team. I was once quite skepticle of long toss until last year when my son really started taking it seriously. Almost immediately he added 5 mph to his fastball from the mound. Now it could be just coincidental....or it could be that long toss has merit. I know that it certainly hasn't hurt son's velocity or control one bit. My son doesn't do the whole crow hop very much in his long toss. He pretty much just winds up as if he was on the mound with leg kick and let's her fly.

Son also throws a lot of bullpens to work on velocity also. As to which is better- who knows, or who really cares. Personally I think doing both strengthens different parts of the body and improves different motions to a quicker more efficient form.

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Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Almost immediately he added 5 mph to his fastball from the mound. Now it could be just coincidental....

I forgot how old your son is, but... mine added 10mph each year from 11-12, 12-13, and 13-14, and then has added 3 each year so far to 16 - without long-toss.

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Son also throws a lot of bullpens to work on velocity also.

Mine too

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Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
I forgot how old your son is, but... mine added 10mph each year from 11-12, 12-13, and 13-14, and then has added 3 each year so far to 16 - without long-toss.

My son is 15 and will be a sophmore this fall. He has basically added right about 5 mph each year since he was 9 years old. He is now throwing in the low 80's. Last fall he jumped from the mid 70's to touching 80 after a few weeks of long toss. I don't know if it was just coincidental or what but you could see a noticable change almost overnight.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
Long toss is for baseball players. The fact is the kids who are the best at long toss have the best arms. When your guys are on the field long tossing your best players will be long tossing together. They will be the ones with the best arms. And the guys that can throw to each other. The players that take the time to work on a consistent long toss program are the same guys that take the time to work harder in the cage. Take the time to work harder at the game. I don't know what others experience is with long toss outside of their own kids experience. But from my experience the players that long toss on a consistent basis simply have stronger arms than those that do not and have not. In fact its not even close. But that is just my experience with players over many years. If your experience leads you to see something different fine.

Agree with this 100% and it's been my observation as well at every school I've coached at.

You have to understand that there is throwing and there is pitching. Long toss is throwing and pitching is pitching. With every athletic event or movement you want to do it with power. You want to throw the ball hard, you want to pitch the ball hard, you want to hit the ball hard, you want to have a running back hit the hole hard, you want a D-Lineman to fire off the ball hard, you want a basketball player to go for a rebound hard.....I think you get my message. In order to be able to do things hard you have to push yourself hard. It might be in the weightroom or it might be long tossing. Lifting weights correctly will help your arm strength but the overall best way to develop arm strength is to throw and throw far.

I'm not saying you get out there and you take the humongous crow hop, head jerks to the side and all that. Take a good fundamental throw but throw it as far as you can. Don't worry if it's so high you hit a low flying plane - just throw it hard.

For those of you who don't long toss and you want to use the increase in velocity that your son makes I think miss the point. Every person will get stronger as they grow up and there will be a gain in MPH on the mound. But the increase will be much more if they would long toss properly.

I've seen it work too many times for me not to believe in it. But remember you can't long toss for a week or even a month and expect to see real gains. It's got to be done regularly over a significant period of time.

How often should a pitcher long toss, and should he do it year round? I'm trying to educate myself, and my son, but see conflicting information. Some of the more medical forums suggest he shut his arm down completely for at least 3 to 4 months a year, does that include long toss as well? Any thoughts?

The number of LT days is very dependent on how often a player is pitching. If he is not pitching then he can LT every day. Most HS’ers have time issues so they can’t do this every day and the most serious throwers get in 5 days a week +/- a day or so. As far as rest goes AMSI suggests 90 days of “active rest” particularly if the player has had a full pitching load. Once you reach biological adulthood there is some discussion whether this is needed or not. FWIW, MLB pitchers are encouraged to rest and workout in the off-season.

Once the player decides that he likes LT and LT has become part of his workout routine, then his arm will dictate how often to do it. Sometimes he will want to do it every day; other times less often. That is in season as well as out of season. When done by a motivated player (for this purpose defined as one who has incorporated LT into his routine), he will often tell you how good "stretching out the arm" feels. My S often does LT the day after he throws in a game and the day before throwing in a game -- that routine isnt for every player; but a player should listen to his arm.

What are the rules on longtoss...What is the max distance? do you only go are far as you can keep your pitching mechanics? It has been a big debate for some coaches in my area...

There is debate because many coaches try to equate long toss to pitching. Pitching is pitching. Long toss is long toss. If u do yeager type long toss - which my S does, you can't keep up pitching mechanics at 300+ feet. Long toss is for stretching out the arm and building up muscles which are supportive of pitching.

If you treat LT as part of the workout - training - routine, no confusion arises. (Like using bands - does the coach get confused that bands will effect pitching mechanics? The bands are simply part of a workout routine. Similarly, the player should recognize the differences and not bring his LT mechanics to the mound.)

From our experience: If you are going to long toss I highly recommend you pull the bands both before and after.

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Originally posted by NDD:
From our experience: If you are going to long toss I highly recommend you pull the bands both before and after.

I am for this. I'm certainly not against it. Doing band work is an important part of training but I don't think it necessarily has to be done proximate to long-toss.

Interesting concept:

Well-respected D-I pitching coach told my son during a campus visit that his long toss philosphy was that when the player is coming in from the longest distance that the effort expended should be duplicated as closely as possible with each throw, as the distance decreases.

This make sense to me as I see a lot of players kinda half-a**ing it as they're getting closer, after they've reached their maximum distance.

slotty,
That is what Jaeger advocates during the pull down phase. Personally, I believe the pull down phase is more for re-establishing the release point. Jaeger believes that the velocity gains occur when continuing to attempt to exercise max effort during the pull down. Personally, I believe the gains come from the throws at max distance and there may or may not be some transfer to the "normal" throwing motion made by continuing to throw hard while pulling down.

The ASMI long toss study, although flawed in it's conclusions due to improper measuring of the velocities during max distance long toss, pretty clearly showed that the max loads and therefore the max training occurred during max distance throwing.

I don't have any problem with max effort coming in as that probably helps with re-establishing the release point but I don't think it makes much if any difference with the velocity and that's the part I'd be most likely to cut short if the arm was starting to get fatigued.