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cccsdad,
If the batter nicks the pitch, such that it would be judged a foul tip if caught, but the catcher doesn't legally catch the ball, then as a practical matter, the ball is foul.
Yeah, I know that's not in the rules, but that's the way it is.
Similarly, if a batted ball strikes the batter in the very forward part of the box, it is a foul ball, even thought the rules say something else.
If the batter nicks the pitch, such that it would be judged a foul tip if caught, but the catcher doesn't legally catch the ball, then as a practical matter, the ball is foul.
Yeah, I know that's not in the rules, but that's the way it is.
Similarly, if a batted ball strikes the batter in the very forward part of the box, it is a foul ball, even thought the rules say something else.
You are going to hate this...
Even though: A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first
base, or between home and third base, or that is on or over fair territory when bounding to
the outfield past first or third base, or that touches first, second or third base, or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base, or that, while on or over fair territory
touches the person of an umpire or player, or that, while over fair territory, passes out of the
playing field in flight.
In custom and practice this is called a foul ball........if you call it fair, be prepared to eject the OC when he questions your ability to track the pitch and judge if the mitt was over the plate........
Even though: A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first
base, or between home and third base, or that is on or over fair territory when bounding to
the outfield past first or third base, or that touches first, second or third base, or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base, or that, while on or over fair territory
touches the person of an umpire or player, or that, while over fair territory, passes out of the
playing field in flight.
In custom and practice this is called a foul ball........if you call it fair, be prepared to eject the OC when he questions your ability to track the pitch and judge if the mitt was over the plate........
quote:batter fouls the ball back, the ball hits the catchers glove while it's over the plate...
Somehow the ball goes BACK and hits the catcher;s glove which is OVER the plate.
I'm trying to imagine how this TWP happened without cather's interference or a batter out of the box.
In reality, most likely the glove wasn't over the plate.
quote:same scenrio as above, only with one addition the defensive player is the catcher, he's in foul territory, he reaches over the plate (which is in fair territory), batter fouls the ball back, the ball hits the catchers glove while it's over the plate and boucnes forwards on to the field in fair territory. Foul ball, right?
Actually, under Fed rules, if the catcher reaches over the plate after the pitcher has started his motion to pitch or to receive a pitch, he is guilty of obstruction.
True but an extremely hard call to see. In the real world it's going to be foul.
quote:True but an extremely hard call to see. In the real world it's going to be foul.
Michael,
Which will be foul? The ball or the catcher's head because he was so far forward when the batter took a swing at the pitch?
quote:Wouldn't the OC have a legit complaint?
I ain't biting, no. This is not the biggest loop hole in baseball. Consider anything that could have been a foul tip, and isn't caught, a foul ball.
So don't give your "backstop" any ideas.
Best you'll ever get is foul, or CI/CO.
Worst, a broke catcher.
Slugbunt (they still call it that?), comes to mind, stay back..
Saw a beut in a college game, I was just running by the tv, but I think he got two out it, big ole chopper over F5.
quote:You're telling me the OC has no legit complaint if you call that foul.
Yes, that's what I'm telling you. No one, zip, nada, nil, has a "legit complaint" over a judgement call, which a fair/foul call is.
And why would the OC complain? He probably just got saved from an easy 2-3 out if the ball was ruled fair.
The catcher must start in the catchers box, which is in foul territory, leave it at that; and the stars and planets will remain in alignment...
It is going to foul. There is no way in the heat of the moment you will be able to tell if he is fair or foul so call it foul. It is no different than if the ball hits the batter in the box but it happens to be in the little corner that is fair. If he is in the box it's foul. It isn't cheating, it's a matter of calling the expected thing. It will cause a major sh!tstorm if you call anything else.
quote:Originally posted by cccsdad:quote:Originally posted by jjk:quote:You're telling me the OC has no legit complaint if you call that foul.
Yes, that's what I'm telling you. No one, zip, nada, nil, has a "legit complaint" over a judgement call, which a fair/foul call is.
And why would the OC complain? He probably just got saved from an easy 2-3 out if the ball was ruled fair.
The catcher must start in the catchers box, which is in foul territory, leave it at that; and the stars and planets will remain in alignment...
Okay, I'm going to stay calm here and try to pretend that you really don't understand the question I'm asking. I'll ask it again.
IF, the umpire KNOWS the ball hit the catcher when he was in FAIR territory (on home plate as in YOUR scenerio)and the ball bounds off the catcher and rolls and stays in fair territory, and KNOWING all this the umpire calls it foul anyway (despite the fact it's met every criteria you can find regarding a ball being touched by a player while the ball is in fair territory atleast according to any and EVERY rule book I've found) you contend the coach has not legit complaint even though the umpire knowingly makes the wrong call because of YOUR unwritten rule regarding foul tips?
I don't think under the guidlines I just provided in my question, you have a leg to stand on. Your whole premise would mean the umpire would have to lie and say he either did or didn't see something that he actually didn't or did see.
Remember my question is framed around the umpire knowing the ball hit the catcher when it and he were in fair territory.
You're saying it's okay for the umpire in this situation to lie and MAKE UP A CALL, based off of his lie?
Are you an umpire? At what level?
Do you also coach? At what level?
Are you are parent with a child currently playing?
At what level?
quote:You're saying it's okay for the umpire in this situation to lie and MAKE UP A CALL, based off of his lie?
Not saying that at all. Consider the mechanics involved and the width of the plate, even if F2 is standing in the middle of the plate, there's still much of him in foul, unless he's less than 23" wide, not sure even hi speed slo-mo could tell if it was still over the plate (fair), inside/outside
..and
1) it'll never happen (be called fair).
2) it's never happened, (been called fair).
3) This is a forum where all levels of play look for advice and guidance. I would not wanna be throwing out any ideas like; "hey, Timmy (F2) here's what I want you to do, scoot clear up on the plate, stay outta the batters way though, but if you can touch a ball before it crosses over the plate we can get some cheap outs, on those foul nicks".
My opinion is that "101% of umpires" would rule a ball nicked back into the catcher, foul, once it's foul, it's foul, done.
I would agree with that ruling, as a coach, an umpire, a player, or as a spectator.
Jim Evans identified 237 "mistakes" in the rule book (instances where the call differs from the strict wording of the rule). I believe this is one of them.
Another example would be rule 6.05 (g) which states "A batter is out when his fair ball touches him before touching a fielder." However, most of us know that you don't call the batter out if he is hit by a fair ball while still in the box (about 18% of the batter's box is in fair territory). Same thing with a batted ball that hits the bat a second time while over fair ground. If the batter is still in the box, it's foul, even though the rule says otherwise.
The rule book is far from a perfect document. It is not a set of clear, unambiguous instructions on how to officiate a baseball game. Knowing the spirit of the rule, and how best to apply it is often more important than knowing the letter of the law.
Good judgment by the umpire is imperative for a fair and impartial baseball game. There is an old saying that good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment. I couldn't agree more.
Another example would be rule 6.05 (g) which states "A batter is out when his fair ball touches him before touching a fielder." However, most of us know that you don't call the batter out if he is hit by a fair ball while still in the box (about 18% of the batter's box is in fair territory). Same thing with a batted ball that hits the bat a second time while over fair ground. If the batter is still in the box, it's foul, even though the rule says otherwise.
The rule book is far from a perfect document. It is not a set of clear, unambiguous instructions on how to officiate a baseball game. Knowing the spirit of the rule, and how best to apply it is often more important than knowing the letter of the law.
Good judgment by the umpire is imperative for a fair and impartial baseball game. There is an old saying that good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment. I couldn't agree more.
That is going to be an impossible call in the real world in real time. You can ask it as many times in as many ways as you wish, the answer is going to be the same. The 1 in 100,000 chance you may think he might have been out over the plate it is going to happen so fast that you won't be sure enough of what you saw to make the call, so foul it will be for now and ever after.
Michael, arguing umpiring with a fan, coach or even umpire of this level is fruitless. You are coming from two completely different levels of understanding of the Game. (capitalization done purposefully and advisedly.)
Back away from the fence and get over near the baseline where you belong.
Back away from the fence and get over near the baseline where you belong.