0-2 Count

Maybe its because pitchers don't want to waste a pitch. And maybe things like a hung curve ball happens every once in awhile. Honestly, I always wondered (and still do) why some people (high school coaches) want to waste a pitch on an 0-2 count. The games are long enough as they are.

In my opinion,

Today young kids are taught to throw the 0-2 pitch way out of the strike zone in the way there is no way possible it could be hit.

This is the wrong thing to teach a young pitcher.

It is my thought, the 0-2 should be out of the zone yet believable. Meaning, a pitch above the letters is rarely offered at by a hitter. Now obviously, younger aged hitters don't have the extreme discipline, but getting them to swing at one in their eyes or one that bounces in front of the plate is rare.

I have never understood why coaches go so crazy over a well hit ball on an 0-2 count.

A well hit ball is a well hit ball no matter what the count.

An 0-2 pitch should be out of the zone but in a believable way so the hitter will at least offer at it.

Also, using it as a set up pitch is important. If your going to throw a breaking ball 0-2, you should be prepared to throw it again at 1-2.

As a hitter, it is often a pitcher misses high with a fastball on 0-2 only to back it up with a 1-2 breaking ball that misses.

This is where you get in trouble. Now everyone knows the 2-2 pitch is the most important pitch which generally is a fastball. Now the hitter has the edge by sitting on a fat one.

Point of the story, make the 0-2 pitch believable somewhere out of the zone. If it is just thrown up there with no purpose, it's a wasted pitch in my opinion.

quote:

I have never understood why coaches go so crazy over a well hit ball on an 0-2 count.

Ken,

I bet the kid today wishes he had wasted one that went over the scoreboard!

Another twist on this, is where are you at in lineup on 0-2. Different hitters should be pitched differently with this count. Also, what was the pitch sequence to get to 0-2? To me this impacts what pitch you might go with next. The pitcher has the advantange, and in order to keep it, he has to throw a pitch the hitter isn't looking for. If the hitter expects a curve and you throw it, it better not be over the plate...or good bye.

Greg Maddux says he does not believe in wasting a pitching --- too much wear and tear on the arm, and besides if hitters are at such a disadvantage 0-2 and batting averages are so low after this count, why not throw a "good" pitch and get 'em out. His definition (and Mazzone's) of the best pitch is a fastball low and away.

But you never know what the coach is thinking and why he called that pitch on a 0-2 count.

quote:

But you never know what the coach is thinking and why he called that pitch on a 0-2 count.

Actually, the catcher had been calling the game at that point. It didn't have anything to do with the coach.

Sometimes you ask for a 60 footer and he gets it up. Back in the day 2 miles would always help a young mans memory. I'm sure when you work on control and work on control its tough to bounce one in there. Goes against Human nature. I always like low and away or top of the letters.

Great topic OP.
There's been a lot of great points already made. I'm not a big fan of wasting pitches. Many batters are expecting a breaking pitch out of the strike zone. Depending upon the batter, pitch sequence leading up to this (and other batters), etc., I typically like a good low inside FB just off the plate. The aggressiveness of the pitch surprises many batters and hard to make good contact. Other times a good low outside FB just touching the black. Not usually a big fan of a breaking pitch on the 0-2 count.

Reckon it might be impacted by whether the first two were looking, swinging or a combination thereof?

Where there are 1 or 2 out?

Where there are runners on base?

Where the score is tied, up one down one?

Top of bottom of the last inning?

Has the pitcher beening throwing off speed for strikes.

Can he paint the corner?

Leadoff, four hole, or nine hole hitter?

What pitch did the hitter hit last time?

Inside or outside?

Ground ball, line drive?

Potential bunt?

Gotta go.

I'll finish this later..........

F-O, just wondering. Was #2 0-2 when he homered last night?

You've posted this in two forums. Don't know which you will be continuing on, so I'll put the same reply here.
>>>>>>>

First, OP, do you really think that pitcher intended to groove that pitch on an 0-2? Do you honestly think he was that stupid?

Highly unlikely. Pitchers miss a fair amount of the time (even the pros). And they miss by a foot or two at times. And sometimes that miss will be over the backstop or in the dirt, sometimes it will be over the middle. Pitchers can't control the miss.

Funny you should mention the fastball that is inside & a few inches above the letters. Koufax took down quite a few batters like that. In my son's last outing, he K'ed six in three innings. Three or four of those AB's ended with a batter swinging at high, inside heat. But then, he has been taught to work batters hard inside.

Too many pitchers today are taught by coaches who think low & away is the answer to everything.

I'm with bbp. IMHO, a good pitcher shouldn't throw waste pitches 2' off the outside corner. If you're going to do that, just tell the blue to put another ball on the count & save your arm.

Aim a little outside the zone, but not a foot or two. JMHO.

Goose agrees w/OP. Son had a clinic (3 hours) w/Goose Gossage last year. Goose was emphatic about the 0-2 count. Said to put a fb at the chin, then the next fb goes low and away. Accomplishes two things - tells the hitter you're not afraid of him - and changes the hitter's eye level. Goose was a very agressive pitcher, and it obviously worked for a long time.

Probably wuz, ASU.

When they were both born, I looked up on the monitor in the delivery room and it said 0-2.

Inside about letters high.

I need to clear up two things on this topic. First of all, the pitch that was called was a change-up. Secondly, the head coach called the pitch not the catcher!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Old Pitcher:

quote:

But you never know what the coach is thinking and why he called that pitch on a 0-2 count.

Actually, the catcher had been calling the game at that point. It didn't have anything to do with the coach.

quote:

I need to clear up two things on this topic. First of all, the pitch that was called was a change-up. Secondly, the head coach called the pitch not the catcher!!!

Shuttle,

Sorry, but wrong on both counts. Catcher called the pitch, a curve ball. Head coach hasn't called a single pitch this season.

quote:

You've posted this in two forums. Don't know which you will be continuing on, so I'll put the same reply here.

Texan,

I wasn't getting a lot of responses early, so I thought I would also put it on the coaches part and see what they had to say. Probably should have put it there first!!

OP

Good discussion topic, OP.

quote:

Goose agrees w/OP. Son had a clinic (3 hours) w/Goose Gossage last year. Goose was emphatic about the 0-2 count. Said to put a fb at the chin, then the next fb goes low and away. Accomplishes two things - tells the hitter you're not afraid of him - and changes the hitter's eye level. Goose was a very agressive pitcher, and it obviously worked for a long time.

Ticket5,

Finally someone on my side. I knew you were out there somewhere. I just dont' get this problem with wasting a pitch that everyone is talking about. It's crazy to give up a hit on 0-2 when you still have so many options and still way ahead in the count at 1-2. I guess things have changed a lot in the last 25 years. Pitchers don't throw inside much anymore either. Except for Texans kid!!

quote:

Good discussion topic, OP.

Thanks Texan. I have just watched it over and over the last several years and wondered why things have changed in that area since I pitched back in the Ice Age. I can assure you that on 1/2 of the 0-2 counts I had, the batter bot dirty on his backside. I just don't see it any more, even at the major league level. It doesn't mean that it was right then, just used to see it a lot. This is fun!!

The only problem with up and in on 0-2 is HBP is a painful way to lose a hitter. If a pitching is throwing in and misses, there is a good chance of HBP.....defense growns, "make him earn it!" and offense is relieved -- "way to wear it!"

As FO expresses, situations are different -- but why not simply rely on your "out pitch"?

Oops, I don't mean to oversimplify things.

OP,

Didn't notice this thread, but replied in Coaching Forum.

This forum has many real good baseball people from Texas on it. Wish some would post in the Coach Forum more often.

Think I know why some don't, though!

quote:

The only problem with up and in on 0-2 is HBP is a painful way to lose a hitter. If a pitching is throwing in and misses, there is a good chance of HBP.....defense growns, "make him earn it!" and offense is relieved -- "way to wear it!"

PD,

That's a great point. But I'd rather take my chances on hitting a guy than giving up an 0-2 bomb. But that's just me from what I'm hearing!!

Come on over to PSH today. We have a game there at 2 if you're not busy. Would love to meet you sometime!

OP

quote:

OP,

Didn't notice this thread, but replied in Coaching Forum.

This forum has many real good baseball people from Texas on it. Wish some would post in the Coach Forum more often.

Think I know why some don't, though!

PG,

I should have posted it there originally, but didn't think about it until after I had already done it here.

I agree that we should look around the entire web site and post in other areas. But you know us Texans, we think we're the only place in America that anybody knows anything!!!

OP

quote:

But you know us Texans, we think we're the only place in America that anybody knows anything!!!

Don't know about that, but it's fairly obvious that there are many who post in this Texas Forum who have much experience and know an awful lot when it comes to baseball!

Without question HBP is better than HR....but the point was made earlier -- kids miss and mistakes get hit. I suppose the best answer is -- have a consistent strategy and if you miss, hope the mistake stays in the park. I agree that a pitch 12 inches outside will fool no one -- and you're in the same situation at 1-2. I too support a high fastball on 0-2 -- out of the zone -- or possibly a low change-up to make the kid chase.

Also, someone mentioned throwing a curveball on 0-2 -- you'd better be ready to throw it again on 1-2. Same theory applies to 2-2 curveballs. If you miss, you'd better be willing to throw it again on 3-2.

Whoever said it's a simple game? Good topic, OP.

My main point here with my original post wasn't really trying to bring up the 0-2 bomb in the game yesterday, but just in general to talk about this topic. I have seen so many pitches on 0-2 over the years, select ball, high school, college and major leagues that have been hit and it just drives me CRAZY every time I see it. I don't know, just a pet-peave I guess. Hope I didn't bash the pitcher or the catcher about yesterday. Wasn't my intention. Was hoping that it wouldn't be a part of the topic, but it did get there. Sorry if anyone was offended.

With my luck, today while my kid is pitching, he'll get 0-2 and give up a hit or hit someone. That'll be God saying "he's not really in charge of that 0-2 pitch anyway"!

I love this game!!!

From my observation, pitch selection/strategy is seldom taught to young pitchers these days. A shame.

My son gave up a 400 foot bomb to Cole Green when he was 14 on an 0-2 count.

Last time he made that mistake, I could preach all day long, every day about being smart with 0-2, it took him nearly breaking his kneck watching the ball go out of the park to finally convince him.

Now that was funny ! peace, Shep

to me that is whats funny about high school ball.
all the coaches say " be smart it is 0-2"

ok have you told him what smart is??

as this discussion there are many different veiws of what to do on this count.

Little johnny probably thinks well i should throw the bender because he said to be smart.

we teach our guys to use both sides of the plate and let the hitters know we will throw in and out.


here is what we would do depending on the hitter and a few other variables, but lets just say he is an average hs hitter.

we would throw low and away fastball off the plate far enough to not get hurt. then we would get the pitcher to shake a couple of times and then bust the hitter with a fastball in and get him to hit a jam shot to our ss or 2nd baseman.


we like the shake to put some doubt into the hitter..


just one mans opinion

I made it a point to keep up with the 0-2 counts in the game Sunday night on ESPN between Chicago and Cleveland.

Here's what was thrown on 0-2 counts up until the rain delay:

Buerhle had 3 0-2 counts and he threw the first 2 up and away. The third one was middle away. All three pitches were balls.

Sabathia had 1 0-2 count and he threw it low and away.

The reliever that came in after Sabathia got injured had two 0-2 counts and both of them were curve balls low and away.

Interesting seeing the real thing after discussing it on here for a while.

Still not sure what I think.......will watch over the next few weeks and see what happens and come up with a better understanding.

I appreciate all the posts on this subject. Some very good info was passed along.