0-2 Count

The hitting is so bad, no one wants to hit a batter and give them the base. I see kids taking on 0-2 because some coaches never throw an 0-2 strike. The waste pitch has become a waste of time and adds to pitcher pitch counts.

First, OP, do you really think that pitcher intended to groove that pitch on an 0-2? Do you honestly think he was that stupid?

Highly unlikely. Pitchers miss a fair amount of the time (even the pros). And they miss by a foot or two at times. And sometimes that miss will be over the backstop or in the dirt, sometimes it will be over the middle. Pitchers can't control the miss.

Funny you should mention the fastball that is inside & a few inches above the letters. Koufax took down quite a few batters like that. In my son's last outing, he K'ed six in three innings. Three or four of those AB's ended with a batter swinging at high, inside heat. But then, he has been taught to work batters hard inside.

Too many pitchers today are taught by coaches who think low & away is the answer to everything.

I'm with bbp. IMHO, a good pitcher shouldn't throw waste pitches 2' off the outside corner. If you're going to do that, just tell the blue to put another ball on the count & save your arm.

Aim a little outside the zone, but not a foot or two. JMHO.

It really seems to hurt more when someone gets a great pitch to hit on a 0-2 count, but it will happen.

Pitchers who simply waste the 0-2 pitch are missing their best count for retiring a hitter. Those who waste the pitch nearly always go 1-2 count, some even waste the 1-2 pitch. IMO those who waste 0-2, 1-2 are for the most part taking away their two best counts.

IMO, the 0-2 pitch is the best strike out pitch in baseball. Don’t see why it should be any different than 1-2 or 2-2. Yes, sometimes they will hit it, but don’t they sometimes hit it on every other count? 3 pitch strike outs are as dominating as it gets. Especially when the corner is painted for called strike three! It’s also the best count for getting a weak ground ball.

There are those who use 0-2 to set up hitters. ie. Throw so-so fastball way out of the zone and follow with the best fastball. To me, the thing that hurts the very most is clipping the hitter on a 0-2 count. I’ve seen that way too often! In fact, there are hitters who will do everything possible to get hit on anything inside when they have a 0-2 count.

Bottom line… 0-2 is the worst count for a hitter. Any good hitter would pick 0-2 as their least favorite count, followed by 1-2. Pitchers should take advantage of this advantage. This is just a general thought, do realize there are other things to consider that could change a pitchers plan.

Pitchers give up hits on every count, sometimes even 0-2! I love aggressive pitchers who work fast, have a plan and go after hitters.

Also depeneding what level we're talking about... The metal bat causes pitchers to work more on low outside rather than inside.

With wood... the fastball in tight is much more effective than with metal. Hard to saw off the metal bat!

Well said, PG.

quote:

First, OP, do you really think that pitcher intended to groove that pitch on an 0-2? Do you honestly think he was that stupid?

Texan,

This is exactly my point! Don't give the hitter ANYTHING close to hit on 0-2. Throw one at his chin and put him on his butt. That'll get him thinking.

PGStaff,

Now that is a good post. Alot to think about and well thought out. Great points all around. Thank you.

Great input by all. If you will indulge me I would like to share story. This happened in my college playing days before I transferred to USC-Aiken, a NAIA powerhouse back then with a long line of draft picks and professional signees. Thought my chances would be better there. Turned out that this was a good move for me because I at least signed free-agent contract at end of senior season.

Before all this happened though, as a sophomore in college while playing Div 1 baseball I had opportunity to face Richie Lewis, 1986(believe it was). He had best 12-6 curveball anywhere at that time and threw me two for strikes and made mistake of throwing the third one after I had taken the first two. We were at FSU/Howser stadium, night game, and about 6,000 roaring FSU fans were very much in the game. Lewis really didn't know me very well and hung the third curveball in wheelhouse about waist high and I ricocheted a line drive off leftfield wall and ended up on third. The next time up he nailed me with one of his 95MPH fastballs on another 0-2 pitch He glared at me at first and I promptly stole second and third with a slight Ty Cobb attitude When I got to third he just kept staring at me like, well I think you can picture what I mean. He came up to me after game and said, I don't know who you are and where the
heck you came from but you will never see an 0-2 strike from any FSU pitcher again or Coach said he would take pitcher out of game. This made me feel really good at that point in my career and made me realize an 0-2 pitch can sometimes be a hitter's best opportunity to grip and rip ! peace

Shep

Shep,

That's a great story. I know it made you feel good inside to hear that. Awesome!! How did your career turn out after you college days?

OP

My point was not clear. My point was that sometimes you can try to throw a pitch under the chin & still miss over the middle. You can try to throw a 1' off the plate and the ball slips a little & the pitch ends up in the middle.

Very few pitchers are stupid enough to groove an 0-2 pitch. The coaches & spectators shouldn't assume that the pitcher wanted the ball to go there. Accidents happen.

I still have to go with PG on this one. Not a fan of waste pitches.

I to hate to see the waste pitches,Yea sometimes a batter gets a hit on 0-2 but it should be that he sees the pitchers best pitch on that count, If batter can hit the pitchers best pitch in location pitcher wants it just tip your hat and go on to next guy.All those wasted pitches just add up by end of the game..I watched that with son last night and coach finally started letting him throw the 12-6 that looked like a strike but wasn't on 0-2 counts, End results were 6 k's in 2 and 1/3.. .

OP,

Thank you for asking and can humbly say that I signed a professional free-agent contract as 27yr old rookie with Peninsula Pilots in Class A Carolina League and offered another contract to continue professional playing career in Midwest League with Mel Finchman's co-op team after that but chose to finish education as an assistant coach at Div 1 school. Was invited to attend Major League Scout Development school later that same year(1991), which I attended and completed under the reigns of Mr. Pries and MLBSB staff which I remember every one of them like it was yesterday. Lost one this past year in fact, Carroll Semberra. I have thought about Carroll a great deal since finding that out and have much gratitude for all that I learned from him while in that intense training school with the Bureau. He was an excellent teacher and could scan a field with one glance and tell you things he saw in that one glance that many scouts would not see in two hours. He was incredibly gifted and still lives in my mind. Was very lucky to have opportunity to attend that MLB team sponsor invitation only school and met almost every scout in the business back during that time which has led to many opportunities as associate scout these years and allowed me to stay connected since then and during teaching tenure and other various business adventures.

I know deep down I want to be full-time scout and would be exceptional if given the chance but thank God I have teaching to fall back on, for now. I have a great passion for this game and will never be able to leave it permanently, no matter how hard I try. I have a great passion for this game and it is engrained in my mind and soul, that I cannot change. This, "baseball" is my destiny and I need to give back and be a steward in the highest position that the "powers that be" will allow me to attain in the grand scheme of things.

Had chance to go to Quantico, VA for a position in gov't before signing contract in 1989 but chose baseball. Worked with Secret Service in presidential motorcades for George H. W. Bush while in college prior to all this baseball stuff Go figure...I would be a wealthy man by now if not deceased as Fed agent. Cut-off is 33yr old for full-time candidates for Secret Service. If I had it to do over again, I would have taken the Bush family up on opportunity presented other than what I wanted, to be a Texas Rangers big league baseball player. The one thing I have learned through the years though, the more you want something, the harder it is to get what you want. Seems like the ones who lay back and let things happen without pushing too hard, get everything. Just seems to be the human nature of personalities, do opposite of one's request. Go figure. Would take a team of Philadephia pychologists to do long-term longitudinal study on human nature involved in decision making process, then I still bet the farm, I don't have either, by the way, that no conclusions could be made about us weak and fleshly humans>LOL

I know that I sailed off on tangent here and apologize to board in advance.peace, Shep

When discussing the 0-2 pitch, we should take into account the situation.

For example… Throwing high and tight could be a better decision in some situations than others. Bases Loaded – Tie Game Late – do you want to get tight on a hitter, especially a weak hitter? On the other hand… runner at 2B, 1B open – 1 out – High and tight might be a real good option.

Then there’s the hitter… Is he their best hitter? Is he their weakest hitter? Does he hit with power? Is he a free swinger?

Then there’s the plan… Are you trying to send a message?
What message are you sending? I will knock you on your rear? I have the stuff to get you out in a hurry? I can be a finesse pitcher? Don’t take anything for granted?

Then there’s the umpire… Is he giving you something extra? Wide? Inside? Low? High? Might want to take what he’s giving the most of.

Then most importantly there’s the pitchers ability. Is he flat out over matching the hitters? Is he struggling with command? Is he a strike out pitcher? Does he have more than one quality pitch?

For sure, something can be gained with a little chin music. They've kind of taken a lot of that away with all the warnings and ejections these days.

We could go on for ever… Odd that such a simple thing could be such a fascinating topic.

PGJerry,

Those are some very interesting variables to consider sir Every situation is different.

Board,

Stayed home last night and watched Clemson at Miami game and you want to talk about chin-music...and hit-by-pitch batters...WOW!! I know I counted at least "7" before I dozed off. The funny thing about it though was no warnings were issued for some unknown reason. Guess the situations didn't merit especially on the 0-2 pitches which several HBP batters had when beamed. Saw one player, LHH, I really liked from N.Augusta who played for Clemson, BTW. peace, Shep

Hey Shep. Haven't seen you here much lately. Your insight is always appreciated.
PG made some great points. We would always look at the stuation before calling a certain pitch in an 0-2. FB high and tight is good in many situations. With the score close and runners on, we don't want to hit the batter and we may want something away or breaking away to induce a Gb. 0-2 nobody on, he's getting one under the chin.

Thanks Coachric,

I have been to far too many games this year, again, all w/o expenses, as usual. Have enjoyed every single minute of every game, as usual.

Can't get away from it though no matter how hard I try. As long as I have money I guess it's going in the gas tank to go to the next ballgame. Went up to Ga earlier this week and found a couple of good ones. Prolly doesn't matter much because many other clubs are all over the ones I thought I found first-LOL. Just so hard to get prospects by amateur scouting organizations and bureau even though ultimately the bureau has to issue a no. for prospect anyway.

Think I'll tune in to CSS Clemson vs. Miami again tonight.

Went through some 1979-82 baseball cards this week and found a handful of Chet Lemon cards in mint condition. If you see him let him know I'm praying for him and holding these cards for him. peace, Shep

I don't believe in wasting pitches. When you have an 0-2 count what you throw should depend on what you threw to get the 0-2 count in the first place shouldn't it? If you painted the outside corner with a fastball on 0-1 for a strike to get to 0-2 I would not come right back there for the k knowing that the batter is thinking low and away because he just got strike 2 on that pitch. Just an example. No one that has a clue calls for a pitch over the plate with an 0-2 count. But kids do make mistakes.

This is a no-brainer issue and it's not debatable. NEVER throw a 0-2 pitch for a strike or anywhere that can be hit with a reasonable swing. What are you talking about saying you "hate to waste a pitch?" That is not wasting a pitch. On 0-2 a hitter is protecting the plate so he is more likely to chase a pitch. 0-2 should ALWAYS be a breaking ball in the dirt, a fastball up, a fastball out out or a change up out out. Fastball under the chin doesn't do anything...that would be a wasted pitch. Every pitch a pitcher throws should set up the next one. And by the way, I'm not talking about 10 year old select ball here...I'm talking college and competitive high school ball...not class B and C stuff. There you can throw whatever.

quote:

This is a no-brainer issue and it's not debatable

Thanks LouisianaTexan, I guess the debate is over! Take note the next time you see strike three called on a 0-2 count in a Big League game.

Asking a high school or college pitcher to throw up and in w/ an 0-2 count is ill advised in my opinion. There are few young pitchers at those levels who can command a FB that well. My greatest fear asking a kid to do that and someone end up getting hurt esp if the kid has good velocity (85 or better), ask the pitching coach at Wichita State (remember vs U Evansville). I think that pitching inside is part of the game and must be taught. However, I feel you should stress moving the hitters feet (waist and below). The inner half should be established and established early in the game. I think the first three or four times you get a guy 0-2 you should move his feet. Also any time a hitter reaches out over the plate for something away from him the next pitch his feet should be moved. When the score is 8-0 it is a little too late to decide you are going to pitch inside. There is a time and a place for throwing near a guys head and it is for guys who get paid to play, not at lower levels. However I feel very strongly towards teaching pitching IN at lower levels, just below the belt. The last thing you want while pitching is for hitters to be comfortable and moving feet is a great way to make them uncomfortable. Save throwing above the belt for guys who can hopefully command FB's better than HS or college guys. That's my opinion.

For Shep: Sorry I've been absent. ON the road way too much .....I will call and catch up.

LO

LO

I will PM my home phone number to ya.

Peace Brother,

Shep

LOW:
interesting question. I look forward to better thinkers than me responding.

Back at cha LO

How's it going Rob and Jerry ? peace, Shep

PS-Sorry PG, didn't mean to leave you out sir, just read previous page and saw your name up on board as well. Should have seen TPM's youngen pitch tonight. Not bad at all...

Shepster,

You have a PM.

OP

Been following Andrew Miller closely this year. Here is a couple innings he has pitched recently, notice the play by play in bold. These are 4 "struck out looking" called strike three on 0-2 counts. I could find lots of them with further search. Watched MN-Mom's son strike out two hitters in one inning about a week ago... both took strike three with 0-2 count.

Georgia Tech 5th - Trapani, M. grounded out to ss (0-0). Fisher, M.
singled down the rf line, advanced to second on a fielding error by rf (1-1).
Payne, D. struck out looking (0-2). Fisher, M. advanced to third on a passed
ball. Hodges, W. out at first 1b to p (1-0). 0 runs, 1 hit, 1 error, 1
LOB.

Georgia Tech 7th - House, C. pinch hit for Blackwood, S. House, C. struck out looking (0-2). Trapani, M. reached on a fielding error by ss (1-1).
Fisher, M. struck out looking (0-2). Payne, D. fouled out to 3b, bunt (0-0).
0 runs, 0 hits, 1 error, 1 LOB.


Maryland 5th - Durakis, C reached on a fielding error by 3b (0-0).
Wilson, J walked (3-0); Durakis, C advanced to second. Murphy, M flied out to
rf (3-2). Nolan, W struck out looking (0-2). Braun, S struck out looking (3-2).
0 runs, 0 hits, 1 error, 2 LOB.

The "Thou shalt not look at the third strike rule" should also be considered in this discussion.

If the pitchis between the outside lines of the batters boxes and you don't swing, you are out

Keeps the game moving, you know.........

FO,

That rule is sometimes easier said than done.

When a pitcher is good at back dooring the slider or has a 2 seamer that moves 6 inches or more or a real good breaking ball or good cutter on the inside edge.

There are certain pitches on the black that can get the job done. Whether it's 0-2, 1-2, 2-2, or 3-2 there's a lot of strike outs LOOKING. 0-2 might be the easiest count of all only because of the old "don't throw a strike thinking". Truth is… most hitters are not expecting a pitcher to throw a strike on a 0-2 pitch, even in the Major Leagues.

You got to be a pitcher with real good stuff and you got to be smart or you better not be trying it. If you get a few called strike threes, you get hitters chasing a bit more.

The three pitch strikeout is as dominant as a pitcher can be. You don’t fool good hitters with below average stuff, good movement is the key. I’ve seen outstanding pitchers strike out the side on 9 pitches in high school age baseball. Whether the hitters swung or not did not matter!

All that said, the best 0-2 pitch is still the one that gets the hitter swinging at something he can’t hit. Problem is… that usually takes the same excellent stuff it takes to paint the black for a surprised called strike three.

Times have changed somewhat. If you throw one anywhere close to a lot of players today in high school or college they are going to "wear it" and hustle on down to first. Remember Cal State Fullerton a couple of years ago in the College World Series? Collegiate Baseball Newspaper ran a series of articles just after that on the "epidemic" of hit by pitches in amateur baseball! I know not all players/teams take this approach but it is much more common these days than when I began coaching. I have many players who would LOVE for you to come in off the plate on them with two strikes.

Once again, I am on the same page as PGStaff. Why not put a hitter away with a quality 0-2 pitch? Why waste a pitch? Why drive up your pitch count?

At the higher levels, this is even more important.

I also have to agree with PG. I've seen hitter after hitter get frozen by a fastball on the low outside corner on an 0-2 count. They see the ball headed there and assume it's a breaking pitch heading out of the zone. By the time they realize otherwise, it's too late, because after all it was a fastball.

Just don't miss, because no one likes to groove a fastball on an 0-2 count. But then, if you miss in the middle of the plate, it doesn't really matter what pitch you throw, or where you meant to throw it, does it?

It's like anything else -- the strategy is sound, but you still have to execute.

The strategy works especially well if you don't tip it off by doing it every time.