12-6 vs other curveballs

A '12-6' is not really 12-6.

I'm guessing that a non 12-6 curve doesn't move as much in either plane.  Not sure, though, you raise an interesting question.

Teaching Elder posted:

I have heard from others that the 12-6 is a better curveball due to its movement pattern and that despite rotating opposite of a fastball, hitters have difficulty picking it up. It would seem to me that a ball breaking along two planes would be better. 

Your thoughts. 

 “Better” in what way? Getting the batter to swing and miss, getting him to hit the ball weakly, getting him to take because he’s fooled, or something else?

All of those things are valuable in their own way.  Lay some insight on us.  We are here to learn.

It's still going to break along 2 planes most likely, just not as much. 

The biggest issue to me with a "true" 12-6 is how it comes out of the hand. A lot of them tend to pop up out of the hand (for lack of a better term), and it is easier to pick up and less deceptive.

In theory, you want every pitch to look the same for the first 20 feet or so, and that type of release may hurt deception. 

I agree with you on the deception matter.  They do seem to pop up out of the hand.  Perhaps someone can speak to whether throwing it lower in the zone and dropping it 59'6" makes a difference.

Whether you throw a 12-6 CB or say a 2-8 CB depends more on arm slot than anything else.  If you throw over the top, you will have a 12-6 CB.  The more your arm slot drops, the more lateral break you will have.  Personally, I wouldn't change arm slot in order to change break on a CB.  Learn to perfect what you have.  A 12-6 CB can be as devastating as a 2-8 if it's a good hard breaking pitch.

And I think there can be different uses for the one that "pops up" out of the hand and one that starts low and breaks into the dirt.  If you are early in the count and want a strike, you can throw the one that starts high and breaks into the strike zone.  Not many hitters will swing at that early in the count.  If you want a swinging strike later in the count, throw it maybe mid-thigh high and let it break out of the zone.  Hopefully, you'll get a guy to swing right over it.

Good curve balls are good no matter what path they take.  The biggest advantage the 12-6 has is it is better against opposite side hitters.

Why is the 12-6 better against opposite side hitters?

I'm not speaking for PG, but I think the advantage would be that it's the same pitch to a same side or opposite side batter.  If you have one with lateral movement, it's a different pitch and needs to be used differently depending on whether the batter is right or left handed.  For a right handed pitcher and a right handed batter, a CB with lateral movement would break away from the batter and it would break into a left handed hitter. 

I'm not convinced this is a worse thing though.  You just have to learn to use it the right way.  A right hander throwing a back door breaking ball to a left handed hitter can be a pretty effective pitch.  As can a back foot breaking ball.  RHP to a RHB, you can throw it at him and have it break into the K zone or throw it middle and break out of the zone.  None of these are options with a straight 12-6 CB.

Once again, a great curve ball is a great curve ball.  However many RHP will throw very few curveballs to LHH so often they will throw fastballs and changeups mostly.  Over the top delivery is a bit tougher on opposite side hitters because they get the best view from 3/4 and lower angles.  Leaving curve balls and sliders over the plate to opposite side hitters, especially from RHPs, can result in some tape measure shots.

Back foot, back door, late break, etc. are great if you have a great curve ball or slider.  But from an over the top slot the 12-6 will generally have more success against opposite side hitters.  Once again, it still depends on how good the 12-6 is.  Very much determined by spin rate.  I actually believe the great 12-6 breaks later and sharper than more normal curve balls.  But the best breaking balls of any type don't get hurt very often.

Thank you. Very good insight. So, a RHP who is over the top and has a 12-6 curveball, a 2 seam fastball and a change is in really good shape versus a LH hitter but doesn't appear to have a good weapon vs a RH hitter. Would development of a cut fastball be recommended?

If a pitcher has a good 2 seamer, 4 seamer, 12-6 curve ball, changeup, he has enough for left and right hand hitters.  But sure cutter or slider could be added.  Not many throw that many different pitches.  Not many have even three "quality" pitches.

I always thought the 12-6 works better against opposite hand hitters because it doesn't break into the bat like a slurvy pitch.

Against same side hitters the second plane even might be beneficial.

PGStaff posted:

Very much determined by spin rate.  I actually believe the great 12-6 breaks later and sharper than more normal curve balls….

 I sure agree that the “break” on a curve is dependent on spin rate, but not spin rate alone. It also depends on gravity and that’s greatly affected by velocity toward the catcher. What that means is, for the same spin rate, a ball will break later and sharper the harder it’s thrown.

Another piece is the "illusion"  changes from different sides of the plate.  RHP to LHH has a much "truer" visual prospective of the break due to the line of site angles.  

I could only get my 12-6 curve to break high and inside.  Everything else was a hanger and a hanging curve is the easiest pitch to hit.  So I ditched it and threw a 2-8 curve that was more consistent.