1.69 pop time High School

lousiana09,
I can understand your skepticism. My "horn tooting" days are over but I saw my son throw a 1.69 as a junior in high school. This was at a showcase (documented and in front of scouts and coaches) ---- he too could "cruise" in the 1.7s. To help put this in perspective he could touch 95 mph from the mound as a junior too. Pop times like pitching velocity is just one part of catching or pitching and doesn't necessarily make a great pitcher or catcher nor do low pop times and high pitching velocities automatically make a first round draft pick.
Fungo

Fungo,

It is not my skepticism or my post. I honestly don't know much about catching. Just curious about what others with experience thought and trying to learn a little more. Thanks for the info!

Your numbers on average time for college and HS kids is on the high side. Usually a 1.7 - 1.8 all comes from proper technique behind the dish, not pure arm strength. I'm sure this kid will light up some scouts stopwatch.

Just for the record...

We have documented over 25,000 catchers pop times in our database. This would include many of the very best, guys like Matt Wieters, Brian McCann, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Geovany Soto, etc.

The best pop time we have ever recorded is 1.72 in the workouts and 1.79 in a game.

I caught a fish thiiiiiiiiiiiiiissssss big today!

quote:

Originally posted by 643_DP:
I caught a fish thiiiiiiiiiiiiiissssss big today!

LOL

Yeah I have a hard time believing a 1.69 pop time. I would have to see it and time it myself to believe it.

Given that PG Staff has actual timed data on 25,000 HS catchers and the lowest game pop is 1.79, I think skepticism is absolutely justified!

Pop times in workouts are not nearly as reliable. I've seen a lot of "cheating" with regards to set-up, pre-setting foot positions, etc.

I've said it here several times before: I have personally timed several dozen MLB catchers in game throw downs using frame by frame playback on DVR. Not a single one was under 1.9. They were very tightly clustered around 2.0.

If the best catchers in the world are 1.9-2.05, I just have to be very skeptical of claims of 1.7 from high schoolers. Especially if they tell me it was a game pop time.

In the interest of accuracy.

We have over 25,000 recorded pop times, but in many cases those would include lots of pop times of the same players. We see some players many times over the course of a few years.

When we time during workouts we use at least three timers. Once in awhile we get a very fast time, but we always average the other two when that happens. It's easy to get an inaccurate pop time reading because human beings are timing it.

It's kind of neat to look at the data from so many years. Our guys can sort it all and see the best at just about anything. Pop times, MPH from positions, 60 yard times, home to first times, grades, etc. We can also sort by any category, like Age, GPA, SAT, Ht/Wt, B/T, State, College choice, draft pick, etc.

Pop times have many variables involved. Low pitch, high pitch, inside, outside, etc. Obviously certain pitches allow quicker pop times.

Very seldom do we ever see pop times of 1.9 or better in games. Even with the very best high school catchers in the country.

We also get velocity readings on catchers throws. We have seen a couple 90+ throws from catchers. Anything near 80 or better is very good, and sometimes mid 70s is good. Once in awhile even low 70s have produced good pop times. Of course, it's easier to develop better technique, a quicker release and better foot work than it is to develop a cannon for an arm. So some times pure arm strength can create lots of interest even with less than great pop times.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Just for the record...

We have documented over 25,000 catchers pop times in our database. This would include many of the very best, guys like Matt Wieters, Brian McCann, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Geovany Soto, etc.

The best pop time we have ever recorded is 1.72 in the workouts and 1.79 in a game.

New HSBBW Dad Rule

Section 2.0 Catchers

Sub-section 2.1 POP Times

"Ask Dad and add 0.3 seconds"

Who cares what a kid throws in a workout. What does he throw in a game? Anybody can look like an All-American with no hitter in the box, no runner on 1st base.

Workouts are great, don't get me wrong. They definitely allow you to see a players tools. But, I want to see what kind of "ballplayer" they are. Only way to do that is watch them in a game.

Crash,

That's a good point. If a catcher pops a good time in a workout, he will definitely get timed in games. One thing for sure, none of them is quicker in the games than they were in the workouts.

BOF, I am (or was) a HSBBW dad and that 1.69 pop time recorded can be verified by the President of Perfect Game Youth who was conducting the showcase. BOF you call me a liar without knowing the facts. You obviously enhance your opinions about whomever you're talking about by your comments --- I don't.

Fungo,

I absolutely believe that 1.69 pop time by your son. I might have a hard time believing if not knowing who it was referring to, only because that is a very unbelievable pop time. It would take a very unusual high school player and your son definitely was one.

When we see players, we never expect them to have the very best time they ever had. It's likely that most all of the catchers we have ever timed have had better times on a different day at a different place. What are the odds of seeing someone once or twice and seeing them on the best day of their life? Slim to none! If we see 92 mph, we figure he can throw better than that, but document the 92 mph.

Pop times are taken by human beings using a stopwatch, when dealing with hundreds of a tenth of a second, it's easy to miss a little. It is entirely possible that someone could be timed by three different people with times like 1.68, 1.74, 1.77. I know because it happens to us all the time (not necessarily those exact numbers). Other times we might get something like 1.95, 1.96, 1.94, but it is rare being that close.

I think BOF was referring to what I posted, rather than what you had posted. I think a lot of us could vouch for your son’s ability. I know when I read your post I didn't think it was anything other than the truth. On the other hand, with some people we do hear some pretty amazing 1.7 pop time reports or 92 mph fastball reports and then later we actually see the real 2.3 pop time or 82 mph fastballs. I think that is what BOF was referring to.

I am glad to see someone other than me who can get a little paranoid once in a great while.

PG

I am glad you see the same things we see---the one catcher I can attest to for great pop times was Angel and he was not a 1.7 and he has a gun

Fungo - not trying to pick on anyone in particular. Trying to add a little levity. PG is correct in that we see posts and/or more likely hear at a game a dad spewing about what his son is throwing at, or hitting, or fill in the blank and it sometimes gets a little nauseating.

I don’t really know much about catching POP times but I do know that there are many, many more HS pitchers throwing under 80 than over 80. There are a few that hit 90 but very few…. PG sees them of course. I guess POP times would be the same, lots above 2.0 not many below, but they are out there

TR,

Actually we got Angel at 1.79 and 85 mph velocity from behind the plate in 2003. Here's the report... scroll down.
Angel Salome

My son was also at that PG showcase and I remember seeing Angel play at Wareham that day....he is a fine catcher....with an absolute gun for an arm...

PG you're also correct when you mention the human element in operating the stop watch. If one can argue the variations of radar gun manufacture's readings on pitching velocities and the dampness of the grass having an impact on the 60 times then it would stand to reason the "stop watch operator" plays a big part in recording the catcher's pop times. By the way I wasn't operating the stop watch.

The timing for this thread is very interesting for me, as one of our summer catchers is currently a little bit 'controversial' in a sense in regard to his pop times during the current high school season. This particular player is well known to PGstaff; he played at PG national last year, as well as TOS and the Aflac game. Anyway, he is ranked around #30 nationally by one or more organizations, and right now he's throwing unbelievable times, and that is part of the problem for some of the scouts.

In a game last week, a runner attempted to steal 2nd and got a good jump. We thought it was going to be 'bang bang', but when this catcher threw down, the runner was still a good 25 feet from the bag when the shortstop caught the ball. The runner didn't even start to slide, rather he just slowed down and let the fielder tag him out, he had no chance. A scout standing next to me said he got a bad time, because 'that can't be right.' So, he asked two others who were standing with us and got the times and they were all pretty amazed. One guy had 1.77, one 1.79 and the third 1.82. That is IN GAME. This same catcher was six for six in a high school playoff game last year. That is six for six in throwing out runners stealing, in one game. Anyway, the problem is that some scouts now worry that their crosscheckers won't believe the times, and I heard one complain last week that he's throwing too good and that nobody will steal anymore. This week, nobody tried to steal in either of his games, but he did backpick a guy off of 2nd, who had strayed about 15 feet off the bag. His throwdown velo is upper 80s. The consensus from more than a few scouts is that he's throwing as good as, or better than, many MLB catchers.

What I am having trouble with isn't his throwing, it is scouts asking him to let up so that somebody will try to steal, or one guy who asked him to not throw 'so hard' every time and stuff like that. This young man is simply playing the game the way he's been taught, regardless of who is there, or not.

quote:

That is six for six in throwing out runners stealing, in one game.

The opposing coach sounds like an idiot. Why would you try stealing six times when your runners are getting thrown out like that?

I find it hard to believe that any scout would say those things to the kid ....a scout see's enough in warm-up and throw downs to judge a kids talent. A scout never knows the speed of the base stealer, the jump or the pitchers ability to hold a runner on.

PG

Was that time in a game or during a drill ?

Matters not to me because the kid was awesome behind the plate when it came to taking care of baserunners

06 catcher dad - is there a chance or talk of moving this kid to the outfield?

Ozone I would agree that they can get enough of a look on catchers in warm ups IF the catcher takes them serious. I've seen catchers who catch the last warm up pitch, stand up and throw a rainbow or take their time to make the throw to second. They might be a 2.2 arm but the watch shows 2.8 - 3.0 because they didn't take it serious.

I've even seen it when they knew scouts were there to watch them.

TR, It was a workout time, the word "legitimate" means he wasn't cheating.

Unless there's a slow pitcher... Anyone that can throw 1.79 accurately (without cheating) should do a very good job of stopping the stolen base. Actually with a quick to the plate pitcher (in game) 1.9 on the money, makes it nearly impossible to steal bases.

06catcherdad,

If we are talking about the same kid, I really believe he is the best overall thrower of any high school catcher eligible for this year's draft.
Is This Him?
I would think every scouting director already knows what he can do. Seems like they would be concentrating on his bat at this point. I hope he's tearing it up because I really like that kid.

coach ....the kid that doesn't take it serious , is not a prospect.

PG, one and the same. Everyone sees his legitimate times when he throws down between innings, as he's been taught to take every throw serious. What has the local area guys impressed the most is that his 'in game' times are every bit as good as his between innings throws. Last week, one scout commented to me that Andrew scares him a little bit. I asked why, and his response was that "he's making throws a lot of MLB catchers can't do in games, and what is scary is he looks like it's effortless for him."

Ozone, I have a funny story about Andrew for you. Last summer, one of my pitchers wasn't holding runners on first at all in a Connie Mack League game. Wasn't even looking over at all. Now, this kid is a HS teammate of Andrew's, as well as on our summer team. This particular day, Andrew was in Cary, playing in TOS while we were playing back home. This pitcher is pretty good, he's going to a WCC school next year, to join his older brother on their pitching staff. Anyway, guys are stealing on him with ease this day. After he comes to the dugout at the end of an inning, I ask him what the heck he's doing, why isn't he even checking runners or trying to hold them. The kid just looks at me and tells me he never holds runners anymore. I'm like YOU WHAT?????????? He says "I've got Andrew. Nobody can steal with him." I had to remind him that Andrew was 2,500 miles away and he won't always have him behind the dish. He does hold runners now, though not as well as he should. Sometimes, I wonder if they just like to lull runners into thinking they can steal, just so they can watch what happens when they try.

PG, you'd have loved a BP session he hit for scouts last week after a game. He caught 7 innings, then after working on the field he set up the cage and hit for about 15 scouts. In about 35-40 swings he hit 11 balls out of the yard, and was still hitting them out when the scouts said they'd seen enough. He started to walk out of the cage, then jumped back in and said "one more", and then proceeded to hit the next pitch well over 400' to left. I guess the ability to perform under pressure isn't a problem for him.

Coach2709, No chance in this world he'll ever move from behind the plate. He's going to Oregon State next year, assuming he doesn't sign and turn pro, and when they recruited him it was with the expectation he'd earn their starting catcher spot as a freshman.

06,

He put on quite a show at the Metrodome (PG National Showcase) last June. Especially in the games, he hosed a couple of the fastest runners in the country trying to steal in front of a lot of the biggest decision makers in baseball. It earned him a well deserved Aflac selection.

Best of luck to Andrew!