2-way possibilities

There are two way players at every level but at higher levels you need to be super good at both to get a chance to do it.

If you are a good pitcher you probably need to be a top 5-6 hitter on the Roster to do both, if your bat is just ok and you are Like the 10th best hitter on the Roster the coach would probably prefer to use another guy hitting even if you are similarly good or even a bit better than the 9th hitter.

But if you pitch well enough and you are a top hitter on the Roster I think it can Work.

There are only about 10 effective 2way guys in all of D1 baseball right now.  The best may be Caglione at Florida and even he is struggling on the mound.  Killing it batting.  Son tried it freshman year but realized there were too many hitters after the first year for him to break through especially being a bullpen guy.  Pretty much the only 2 way guys are starters who can really hit or fielders who can throw gas for one inning.

Son would work all through practice as a pitcher then stay, many days by himself, for 2-4 hours and work on hitting.  He would beg coaches and other players to stay and throw to him or he had to just hit off tee or machine.  After freshmen year, Covid, he realized that he wanted to be one of THE guys out of the bullpen and so he gave up hitting extra.  He still hits some in practice and definitely hits with the pitchers drills for fielders.  Still hits HR's from both sides.    He realized it is just not worth the time.

I’ve seen D3 and JuCo suggested as the same thing competition wise in two threads today. I’ve seen it in the past. There are many JuCos with pro prospects who could give ranked D1’s a struggle.

It’s a lot of work in college ball to prepare to be a hitter and a pitcher. My son found it hard enough preparation time wise to be an infielder and an outfielder. As mentioned there are only a handful in D1. These are typically crème of the crop, future draft pick players.

At the D3 level there likely to be more two ways. But you better be awesome at both or you will get moved to one or the other.

D3s (not just HA) do have two-way players. Not many, but a few. It's what Dominik85 says.  HA schools, just like any other teams, are about winning - don't be thinking that those teams are "just" about participation.  They will use players in whatever way benefits the team.

TexasLefty"

Does your son hit left? What hitting location in the lineup? Is he best power alley left center or right center? Is he a LF or 1B?

Our local JC #3 hitter is also a pitcher. The SRJC team is ranked #1 in the Northern California.

Bob

@TexasLefty, for 99.9% of college baseball players being a 2 way guy is an unrealistic proposition. At any level of college baseball. There are too many other good players and there is only so much time in the day.  I’m speaking from experience on this subject. I tried to do it in JuCo and couldn’t. That was 40 years ago. Two players tried this year at the JuCo I help out and they couldn’t do it. That’s a current example. One of the best overall athletes that I know personally is Mark Thurmond. Mark was an All American LHP at Texas A&M and was my teammate. His freshman year he was the starting CF when he didn’t pitch. He went on to pitch 9+ years in MLB and started 2 World Series games. Mark was actually recruited to A&M on a football scholarship as a QB and was a 2 sport athlete his freshman year at A&M. And he was also a scratch golfer and a 4.0 student. After his freshman year it was decided for him, by Emory Bellard & Tom Chandler, that going forward Mark would only play baseball and would only pitch. The moral of the story is that one of the best athletes I have ever seen could not be a two way player in a good D1 program. So it’s pretty unrealistic to think your son could do it. The only level where there is a fighting chance would be D3. And D3 schools are full of overcrowded baseball rosters and coaches are looking for ways for guys to be involved. My advice to you (and your son) would be once you get to college voluntarily go the way of your biggest strength. Because if you don’t do it voluntarily someone else will decide for you and in the interim you could waste time, energy, and money. Just my opinion. But I am right.

My son's D3 team has two guys who I'd call 2-way players:  One is a pitcher who has gotten a lot of innings this year and also DHs sometimes.  The other plays OF, DHs some, and pitches some in relief.  Both are significant contributors and have gotten a lot of playing time.  Both are underclassmen.  This is at a strong D3 program.

As to whether HA schools "have the same winning emphasis," you'll regularly see HA schools in the D3 top 25, so I don't think looking at those colleges is a way to maximize 2-way opportunities. 

Lots of two way players at the D3 level

My son, a 2024 LHP/1B, was treated as a PO in the early recruiting process when mostly P5 schools were the conversation.  When mid majors started talking to my son, there was more willingness to consider him as a 2-way prospect.  My son still is not willing to give up hitting… to his credit he currently leads his HS conference  in OPS.

I think some RCs were talking up 2-way with my kid because that is what my son wanted to hear. Son verbally committed to a school that will give him a chance as a 2-way.  I think the college coaches he is paired with will give him the fall freshman season to try both, then they’ll let him know what he is better at and let him know what they need and want from him.  

check back with me in 24 months, and I’ll let you know how it all worked out.

@RJM posted:

I’ve seen D3 and JuCo suggested as the same thing competition wise in two threads today. I’ve seen it in the past. There are many JuCos with pro prospects who could give ranked D1’s a struggle.

There are also jucos that wouldn't beat the best HS in the area. Same with D3s. There is actually a very dramatic difference between the top 10% and the bottom 10% of teams at each level.

As the father of a kid who went as a two-way, my advice is to be very clear which position comes first and what you are willing to do if it doesn't. And whatever you do take anything these coaches say with a grain of salt. Remember, your son is going there to play a game. They are there to win, and by doing so putting a roof over their families heads and food on the table. I said this before and I'll say it again, your kid is a piece of meat, and the only way they'll have his best interest in mind is if it furthers their career.

@PABaseball posted:

There are also jucos that wouldn't beat the best HS in the area. Same with D3s. There is actually a very dramatic difference between the top 10% and the bottom 10% of teams at each level.

I know the dad of a kid who played at Neumann. The kid would be thirty now. Neumann was terrible then. They didn’t cut anyone. The kid almost never got on the field.

He didn’t start for a 2A in high school. ASBA West Chester was willing to take the dad’s money and play him half the time on B teams. I don’t know what he did for 17u.

When the CWS would come around the dad would brag his kid played college ball without mentioning Neumann wasn’t exactly P5 ball.

Son is still listed as a 2 way. But he either hitting 1000 or 0.  Never got out because he has never hit.  Almost got in last night.  But they realized they had a fielder who needed at bat.  Smaller schools in juco, naia or D3 can do it.  I don’t know anyone successful at it in P5 right now.  Successful in both areas being the key.

I think the takeaway is obvious - nobody gets to choose to be  2-way player.  Even if your name is Ohtani, your coach is going to decide which way you have more value, hitting or pitching.  And it's only very rarely going to be both.

Obviously it's an anomaly, but my kid had two HS teammates who went on to be 2-way D1 players. The first was a 2015 who was our conferences' player of the year in both basketball and baseball.  An incredible athlete.  It was so much fun watching him on the court running over and shutting down opponents who were half a foot or more taller than him at 5' 5".  In baseball, he was our leadoff hitter, CF, closer, and occasional starter. I think he only struck out twice his whole HS career.  He had no 4 year offers so he went to a JuCo, where he played well enough to be drafted in the last round as a pitcher.  He went to a Big West school and was their #1 starter and played well as  CF when he wasn't pitching.  He was drafted as by a National League club that used him both as hitter and LHP in the Minors until Covid, Tommy John, and the NL adoption of the DH derailed an interesting track.  He's back on the field this year, pitching only,  and doing well in AAA.

The second went to a Pac12 team where he got into several games in relief as a freshman and did ok but not great. But he was the best offensive player on the team.  I'm not sure if it was partially his call or 100%  the coach's, but either way, he did the smart thing and stopped pitching the next year and went on to have a great career and is already an established MLB player.

At the D3 level, during my son's career I saw several players rostered as 2-ways but with one exception I can't recall anyone getting significant PT doing both. The exception was a returning senior starter who my son beat out for an IF position during his freshman year.  The senior hadn't pitched much in prior years, but after losing his starting job, he won a significant role as a middle reliever.

BTW what ohtani does is so insane, I think most people don't even have a clue how tough that is.

To even be a below average MLB bench bat (say a guy hitting .245 with 11 Homers in a full season) or being a 6th starter with a 4.5 Era is insanely hard.

To be a star at both like othani  having achieved both 45 Homers and 200 Ks in a single season without focusing on one is just insane, probably one of the most insane achievements in sports history.

Sure babe Ruth did it 100 years ago but this is a very different time where hitters and pitchers put in an insane amount of work to even just be average  at one of those things, let alone being a star.

Last year at my son's D3, one of the seniors was a two way.  He primarily played 3rd base as a starter.  About 1/2 way through the season, when the team became ranked, he became our closer, but only in really close games.  If we had a sizable lead, they would use someone else to finish the game.

This year we have two guys officially listed as Utility players.  One has seen the mound a couple of times in blow out wins or losses and plays in most of the games in the infield.  I've only seen our second utility guy pitch.  We have a third guy, who is not listed as a two way, who has seen the mound in blow out wins.  He's our DH. 

Enjoyed the replies.  Thanks all.   I was just curious and did you guys come through!  This wasn’t really a question for my son’s future - was just interested in other people’s opinions and experiences.  

@Dominik85 posted:

There are two way players at every level but at higher levels you need to be super good at both to get a chance to do it.

If you are a good pitcher you probably need to be a top 5-6 hitter on the Roster to do both, if your bat is just ok and you are Like the 10th best hitter on the Roster the coach would probably prefer to use another guy hitting even if you are similarly good or even a bit better than the 9th hitter.

But if you pitch well enough and you are a top hitter on the Roster I think it can Work.

^^This.  I think you'll find many committed D1 players were two way players in high school.  Maybe, not as many two-way players for elite travel teams, and then just a handful at the D1 level as @PitchingFan noted.   The two-way talent funnel gets more narrow as you move up the talent ladder.   

The only way it happens is if the HC feels a two-way player is his best chance to win when he fills out the lineup card.

I was a two way freshman year of college. I had three upperclassmen ahead of me in the outfield. I was a dominant left handed pitcher in high school. The coach knew I pitched. After a couple of injuries to lefties he asked me if I would pitch. I was used as a situational lefty. I did get about sixty at bats freshman year.

The good news was I was effective on the mound. The bad news was I was effective on the mound. The coach wanted to make me a pitcher only. I talked him out of it. It became a moot point when I became a starting outfielder soph year. I never pitched again.

Freshman year I was hyper in the dugout and in the pen. It was the first time since nine in LL majors I didn’t play almost every inning. Even the coaches joked they should duct tape me to the bench. I was a good cheerleader.

anyone else watch Jac Caglianone play this past weekend on ESPN?
Looks like Jac and the Gator coaching staff have unlocked the code for a successful 2-way player.

https://floridagators.com/spor...jac-caglianone/15489

I am not bashing Jac because I think he is a great athlete.  But 5.11 era with 37 walks and 7 hbp's in 44 innings is not an exceptional pitcher.  He lacks control.  He threw 35 pitches against us in .2 innings.  Against SC, he threw 82 pitches in 3 innings.  He definitely makes up for it with his .363 batting average and 25 HR's but I do not think you can call him a successful 2-way player with his pitching stats.

So transitioning this question to a big time hypothetical…. Let’s say kid is a solid pitcher/hitter with power in HS.  Just gonna make up some stats…. .500 avg, .680 OBP, 1.3 OPS, 6Hrs, 8 2B, 2 3B.  That type of hitter.  Same kid is a 88-90 velo, ..800 whip, 2 ERA, 1.9 BAA,.  What do you suggest for that kind of kid? Pitcher or hitter?  And what does the college recruiter suggest?  Totally just for fun.  

Kids get recruited at all levels by being told they can be 2-way.  My son was (D3); some coaches told him they saw him as a MIF who could pitch, and some saw him as a pitcher who could hit/field.  He picked the school that he felt fit him the best.  That's all you can do.

A kid will have a happier experience if he understands, from the start, that most likely he will be one thing or another after the coach sees what he needs.  You've got answers from PitchingFan and SomeBaseballDad, whose kids experienced versions of this.

A player may have the goal to be a two way. But their main goal should be to be a contributor. It means you’re on the field.

I think it is different for every player and situation.  If my son had gone to a small D1 or mid-major, he would have been a 2 way guy, I truly believe.  He would have been a starter and played the field and hit.  But he made the choice to go to the SEC and became a reliever.  He has been blessed to take a great journey and that also leads to making a choice.  His choice to play at that level and the accolades that come with it come at a cost.  He realized that he was going to be a reliever on a high level team so he gave up hitting.  Every journey comes with choices.  Those choices lead to decisions.  The decision for him was to be a reliever on a top team rather than a starter and hitter on a lower level team.  The result.  He is #8 in appearances in D1 this year.  #3 all time in UT in career appearances and if he comes back next year will be #1 and probably will never have it beaten.  Will leave in top 10 in career era.  Leading team appearances for 2 straight years and maybe 3 if he comes back.  Played in college world series and got to coach 1st.  SEC regular and tournament championship.  Also gets to catch first pitch each game and has been blessed to meet some incredible people both famous and not doing that.  Would he give all that up to hit.  No way but some others would.  Each person has their own journey and the choices they make impact that journey.  Maybe this helps.  Everyone has to decide and sometimes that decision is life changing.

@TexasLefty

My son played in HS with two players like that. One is an ACC Sunday starter as a freshman and the other is a 3B in the Cubs system. It was all about how their tools played at the next level.

Alternately, because of my son's size and the fact that he could throw hard with no pitching instructions, several P5 teams offered him as a two-way. He did not consider those offers because he assumed that the looked at his body-type and were thinking pitcher. He felt like they would never take him seriously/give him a fair shot as a hitter.

@PitchingFan wrote, “Everyone has to decide and sometimes that decision is life changing.”

Not only is this true about the 2 way decision, it’s true about a lot of the decisions that are made during the recruiting process. A lot of them can be life changing. Some permanent and some temporary. Some changes for good and some for bad. But a lot of decisions result in change and that’s why people need to be better informed and make better decisions.

@TexasLefty posted:

So transitioning this question to a big time hypothetical…. Let’s say kid is a solid pitcher/hitter with power in HS.  Just gonna make up some stats…. .500 avg, .680 OBP, 1.3 OPS, 6Hrs, 8 2B, 2 3B.  That type of hitter.  Same kid is a 88-90 velo, ..800 whip, 2 ERA, 1.9 BAA,.  What do you suggest for that kind of kid? Pitcher or hitter?  And what does the college recruiter suggest?  Totally just for fun.  

Depends a lot on his position.

If he can play up the middle I probably would pick hitting but if he is a corner guy with fringy athleticism he would really need to mash to be more attractive as a hitter because pitchers are always sought after

@PTWood posted:

@TexasLefty

My son played in HS with two players like that. One is an ACC Sunday starter as a freshman and the other is a 3B in the Cubs system. It was all about how their tools played at the next level.

Alternately, because of my son's size and the fact that he could throw hard with no pitching instructions, several P5 teams offered him as a two-way. He did not consider those offers because he assumed that the looked at his body-type and were thinking pitcher. He felt like they would never take him seriously/give him a fair shot as a hitter.

Sounds like a good decision now.

I think at his height most coaches probably would have thought pitcher because there aren't many field players that tall.

I think that changed a little with guys like judge and stanton having big success in the majors though.

@mjd-dad posted:

anyone else watch Jac Caglianone play this past weekend on ESPN?
Looks like Jac and the Gator coaching staff have unlocked the code for a successful 2-way player.

https://floridagators.com/spor...jac-caglianone/15489

If anyone subscribes to D1Baseball's paid content,  Aaron Fitt wrote a great article  about Jac Caglianone on Monday.

FWIW, it's not about being a 2 way player, but one that is the HR leader, and hits  100 on the gun from the left side and he is 20 years old.

For those that didn't know, Cags was a successful 2 way guy in HS, but had TJS before he came to UF last season and yes he has had some rough outings, along with the HC and his PC making  tough decisions on how to play him every Sunday. But it seems to be coming together and he will continue to pitch and hit on the same day.

I was in Gainesville 2 weeks ago for the Missouri game and came through the back entrance by the field and Cags was warming up with his pitching coach and there was roughly 100, maybe more parents with their  kids holding up balls for him to sign. Imagine how distracting that would be to anyone.

FWIW, his stats are  better than many P5 and SEC pitchers.

This is something that a lot of players and parents misunderstand going into college, and/or think they will be the exception.

You play where the coaches decide you play. Period, end of statement.

My son was recruited to be a 3B/1B/OF.  Played some OF freshman year Fall Ball.  Has barely ever taken even a practice rep at First. Hasn’t taken a single practice rep in the OF in 18 months.  Has only played 3B in games

In summer ball last year he played 3B/1B/DH

He's just happy to contribute in whatever way the coaches need

This is especially true with 2 ways.  Reality is, no team in the history of Baseball has had “too much pitching”.  So if you can pitch at all, most coaches are going to prioritize that in terms of the ways you can help a team