20 k's for Cowgill

WOW - Pretty stout....

Pitch count for this many strike outs on 9 innings?

Coach Baker said he threw a 146 pitches.

20 strikeouts, impressive, Granby has some hitters.Coby should be on the radar for school opportunities? Looks like Maury had some hits but could not cross the plate? If Coby had 146 pitches in 8 or 9 ,how many did Abets throw for Granby? Seems like a lot of pitches?How deep is Granby at pitching?

If someone is throwing 146 pitches, the coach needs his head examined. What a risk.

impressive indeed, but 146 pitches is too much, too early in the season, if C. were my kid he would not be pitching any time soon on that team. I'm hoping this is the exception rather than the rule w/ this coach having one of his players throw that many pitches in one game. If this is common practice my kid would never pitch on this team !

146 sounds like he was jsut getting warmed up. wonder what the gun readings were ater the 140th pitch?

This coach should be held accountable for throwing any teenager 146 pitches. This program has a track record for this type of behavior at the Varsity and JV level. It's irresponsible.

The kids future means more than the 'big win" against the conference rival.

I hear what you guys are saying but Coby was still pitching very strong in the ninth. Same with Abetz. The only difference was Abetz was getting more ground outs. I was surprised he took him out because he was still going strong. When you factor in all the 5-inning games that end 16-1, I dont think Coby is being overused. Just my 2-cents.

quote:

Originally posted by wgarlick:
When you factor in all the 5-inning games that end 16-1, I dont think Coby is being overused. Just my 2-cents.

146 pitches is abuse. There is no way around it. Show me how many MLB pitchers threw 146 last year.

I dont think you can compare high school pitch counts to MLB pitch counts. How many MLB even pitch 9 innings anymore or make it past the seventh inning? it's not because they are tire. managers have players that make 2 million dollars to pitch one or two innings.

If you want to compare MLB'ers, in the old days pitchers would throw double-headers and 30 complete games a year on three days rest. Many of them pitched for 10 years or more. NowToday, if a pitcher gets close to 100 he's pulled.

I just feel different players have different fatigue and recovery levels. That magic number might be 25, 80, or even 150--depends on the person.

Coby was still throwing strong with no wild pitches (too high or low in the dirt). It was a cool day and neither pitcher seemed fatigue. as a matter of fact, they both pitched better (and faced less batters) in the last 3 innings, than they did in the first three. I trust the coaches judgement.

Now if the rules allowed him to pitch a complete game on Friday with little recovery, then I would say that's abuse.

OK...you are the only person I have ever seen say 146 is OK.

Being high or low has nothing to do with him being tired. If you can't identify indicators of fatigue, how can you judge what is OK?

Dr. Jobe, Dr. Andrews and every pitching coach I have ever spoken with agrees with me. But, yeah...you are right. It's not abuse.

This is bad news.

MLB guys get pulled because (a) they are typically max effort guys and (b ) they cannot be left out there when they start to miss spots, or they'll get hammered. Also they have to start again in 5 days.

High schoolers often still are getting guys out even when they're missing spots, if their stuff is overpowering. This encourages coaches to keep them in, because "he still looks strong", and of course, the kid begs to be left in.

Generally, if you watch games, even in mid-season there is a loss of sharpness after 85 pitches. By 100 you should be pulling a kid. 110 is OK by me if he's finishing his last inning. I would even go to 125-130 once in a blue moon for something special like a championship game (last game of the year) or a no-hitter.

146 is way beyond when someone should have stepped in.

Now, I'm not saying this one outing will hurt this kid. But this cannot be allowed to go on again.

Also, I'd be willing to bet he loses something in his next outing. He may have felt good when the adrenaline was still flowing. Ask him how he feels today. Or even tomorrow. He will not recover swiftly from this.

Redbird
I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying the pitch count formula doesn't apply to every situation and every person. It's not a blanket policy. People are different. Evidently, the pitching coach (not me) felt Cody was still ok in the ninth inning.

Also, I never said 146 is ok--I said he was still pitching strong. You said he was "abused" and I dont agree if a pitcher throws 146 pitches on one occasion he is being abused.

Check out this study by Baseball Prospecus.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1499

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
This is bad news.

MLB guys get pulled because (a) they are typically max effort guys and (b ) they cannot be left out there when they start to miss spots, or they'll get hammered. Also they have to start again in 5 days.

High schoolers often still are getting guys out even when they're missing spots, if their stuff is overpowering. This encourages coaches to keep them in, because "he still looks strong", and of course, the kid begs to be left in.

Generally, if you watch games, even in mid-season there is a loss of sharpness after 85 pitches. By 100 you should be pulling a kid. 110 is OK by me if he's finishing his last inning. I would even go to 125-130 once in a blue moon for something special like a championship game (last game of the year) or a no-hitter.

146 is way beyond when someone should have stepped in.

Now, I'm not saying this one outing will hurt this kid. But this cannot be allowed to go on again.

Also, I'd be willing to bet he loses something in his next outing. He may have felt good when the adrenaline was still flowing. Ask him how he feels today. Or even tomorrow. He will not recover swiftly from this.

It will be more than one outing affected if he is to sore, or tight, to do his normal weekly routine!

If he can't get back in his routine and pitches his next start anyway, then the snowball that was made that night will get bigger.Lets hope not.My 2cents

146 sounds like way too many. Count the pregame warmup routine (which varies from pitcher to pitcher but in any case would include no less than 30 pitches) plus warmups between innings and this kid will have thrown at least 200 pitches on the night. His arm, elbow, shoulder would have taken a beating with that many pitches, and maybe his is strong enough to handle it without adverse effects, but it is a risk.

Does he play a position when not pitching? If so, when do/did they next play? That would impact, too, how to look at this outing. If, two days later, he has to go to SS or CF and make hard throws throughout the night, it increases risk.

Everyone's points on this issue are certainly valid and one outing like this will obviously not ruin a prospect's chance to play at the next level. However, this type of thing has happened in this program on a number of occasions. I've seen it first hand. Ths kid should be commended for his competitive spirit. However, the coach should be reprimanded for his lack of concern for the well being of a player, who is not a professional athlete...he's a 17 year old student/athlete.

40% over the ASMI recommended pitch limit is alot of pitches.


Pitch Count and Other American Sports Medicine Institute (ASMI) Recommendations
Pitch Counts
Age Max. Pitches
Per Game Max. Games
Per Week:

Age 8-10 52 2
Age 11-12 68 2
Age 13-14 76 2
Age 15-16 91 2
Age 17-18 106 2


Recovery Times based on pitch count
1 Day Rest, 2 Day Rest, 3 Day Rest, 4 Day Rest:

Age 8-10 21 34 43 51 or more pitches
Age 11-12 27 35 55 58 or more pitches
Age 13-14 30 36 56 70 or more pitches
Age 15-16 25 38 62 77 or more pitches
Age 17-18 27 45 62 89 or more pitches

20 k's, 146 pitches, and getting stronger as the game went on. I would say that's pretty good for a 17 yr. old kid. Was the desicion to pull him just, yes. No need to take a chance of damaging or weakening a young players arm in a non-title game. The interesting point to me was as Coby was pulled, for the best interest of him arm as to not over do it, is that the Granby pitcher went the whole entire game. What was his pitch count and has any questioned the point of the health risk to that young mans arm ? Is the Granby's coaching staff more interested in a win than the health of its players ? Not quite sure of the reasoning for that decision. Bottom line is that Maury couldn't get the bats moving and left to many players on base which would have changed the whole outcome of the game if the sticks were hitting.

Ok, Ok I am not trying to beat a dead horse here but I have to make one comment for the sake of discussion and I believe that is what the board is for---- discussion. Here is the question:

Why is there absolutely no discussion of pitch count (pass count)for football QBs?

I would say that they throw in a game and probably throw game speed in practice several days a week. Just wondered if anyone had a thought.

well for one they might pass the ball 30 times a game if they are in the nfl or college...no high school team comes near that probably except great bridge. They dont throw it full effort everytime either.
On the other topic though of Maury and Granby pitch counts. There are so many factors influencing the decisions of coaches that it is unfair to make assumptions based on one game or so...146 pitches in 9 innings is a lot, no question. I would have to know whether he is a max effort guy, had a history of arm problems, recovers well, how much rest did he have until his next start, etc... I can attest to the Granby pitcher not being a power pitcher and if you dont throw hard you arent as susceptible to injuries (more off speed pitches and less violent actions)...just name me a hard threowing righty in the bigs that hasnt spent considerable time on the DL other than clemens. While the Jamie moyers and madduxes pitch forever it seems

quote:

Originally posted by Mr. C:
Ok, Ok I am not trying to beat a dead horse here but I have to make one comment for the sake of discussion and I believe that is what the board is for---- discussion. Here is the question:

Why is there absolutely no discussion of pitch count (pass count)for football QBs?

I would say that they throw in a game and probably throw game speed in practice several days a week. Just wondered if anyone had a thought.

Mr. C,

Your post makesme think of the late great pitcher Jim 'Catfish" Hunter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catfish_Hunter

From what I read, at the start of spring training he would go out and throw as hard as he could. He would rest a day then come back and throw as hard for as long as he could; this was to build up his stamina.

I am on the jury's side that say 146 pitch's was extensive. I say this based on the young man's age, but more so has to not knowing what his work-out regiment consists of and more specifically his body make-up. My oldest had a rubber arm where as my youngest needs more of a recuperation period.

I was QB in JR High, but an Option QB so I didn't pass alot in games. But, I think a QB's regiment would following more in line with what Catfish Hunter did.

A couple other things to add is that, IMHO, throwing a smaller object ie: baseball, creates more stress on the body (arm,elbow,shouder).

Now,I could throw the deep ball(football) better on the run because I was using my forward momentum and not just my arm. (I was smaller than an average QB)

http://www.pitching.com/

Then you have all those breaking balls that put on added stress.

Finally, not sure, but the deceleration for a pitcher may be more pronounced than a QB.

Think about the QB's in the NFL and the experts say that only a handfull can make "all of the throws" example:
Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and Carson Palmer comes to mind. This makes them I think, the exceptional over the average.

just my 2 cents

There is a very big difference between throwing generally, and pitching off a mound.

E.g., you can take infield every day if you're a SS or such. And you can play every day, too.

But you can't pitch every day. It's just a higher stress situation.