2012 BBCOR bats

Warningtrack,
I think there is no question that better performing BBCOR bats are out and will continue to hit the market. Louisville Slugger has 3 new models and Demarini has there new models rolling out also. All indications are that the new models have more pop.
Lefty...

A little skepticism here (healthy skepticism, I hope)...

Aside from beliefs and vague generalities, what kind of real evidence is there that the 2012 BBCOR bats are any better balanced, hotter, whatever, than 2011 BBCOR bats.?

How can it possibly be that there is "no question" they will be any better?

The 2011 0.50 BBCOR limitation on bats is exactly the same as the 2012 0.50 standard. If the 2011 bats that were labeled 0.50 BBCOR were really only 0.48 or 0.47 BBCOR, then why would you believe them in 2012 when they say, "This year we're really, really, really at 0.50 BBCOR" ???...."and next year, when we want to sell you a 2013 BBCOR, it'll be 0.50000 BBCOR!!! wow.

The 0.50 BBCOR standard is a line that can't be crossed (legally) so.....whatya think, after they get as close as possible to 0.50000, no new metal bat sales campaigns anymore? Sure.

About the balance thing---there is no single type of bat design that satisfies every hitter's idea of a "well-balanced" bat. That's why there are dozens of wood bat specs for hitters who use those old things...they are available with many different legal variations that affect balance, swing speed, handle flexibility, etc.

Notwithstanding the 0.50 BBCOR limitation on metal bat performance and the vague notion that you can only buy "balance" via a $300 metal bat, there are virtually no limitations on the ability of bat companies to buy carefully crafted "opinion" from well-paid shill-coaches, put war-paint on their lead pipes, and anoint their products with fearsome names.

LA, disagree with your post. I think manufacturers like LS continually improve their products, other wise they would not have remained in business for the last million years.

I think metal bat manufacturers were improving their bats in very measurable ways over a period of about 30 years.

If there were no legislated limits to how well a legal bat can perform, I think it would almost be a case of "the sky's the limit".

However, bat-design engineers must now work within a very clear performance ceiling. Beyond the most obvious kinds of lies, there is virtually no ceiling to the psychological tricks and insinuations that advertising geeks can use to sway people toward their products.

Laundry soap also went through many decades worth of technical improvements in formulation and cleansing effectiveness--but nowadays "New and Improved" is just a hollow advertising slogan. Soap companies are all selling the same product, with minor variations in color and texture, and they differentiate themselves with clever advertising campaigns.

That's what bat companies are doing, not because of any technical/engineering limitations but because of legislated BBCOR limits. Without legislated barriers to continued improvement of bat performance, engineers could probably squeeze out quite a bit more performance enhancement in metal bats than we saw in the last decade.

What is already happening is: People are getting used to the limited performance of the 0.50 BBCOR standard, and it's being accepted because, (1) there is no choice and, (2) both sides in every game are limited to the same specs, so it's fair.

Within that environment, I think bat companies are going to devote more and more resources to advertising, endorsements, enticements, and much less resources to technical innovation...after all, where's the financial return for working on actual technical improvements, when you cannot legally improve beyond the 0.50 standard?

Baseball bats are a HUGE business.

IT all depends on your perspective.

Personally I like the BBCOR change. It's going to make pitching, not just throwing HARD, a premium once again. Inside fastballs won't get fisted into a gap as much. Check swing dingers will go the way of the dinosaur.

But the players that can hit? They'll still hit.

I assume ( ) that the first go around from the manufacturers who were rushed to get product out was not the best they could do. I believe now that they have some feedback and of course time that they have made adjustments to get as close to the .50 standard as possible. They will continue to tweak.......

quote:

Originally posted by warningtrack:
I assume ( ) that the first go around from the manufacturers who were rushed to get product out was not the best they could do. I believe now that they have some feedback and of course time that they have made adjustments to get as close to the .50 standard as possible. They will continue to tweak.......

Exactly! They were rushed, and the first product out was junk but getting better. I too prefer the kids playing with BBCOR than the old BESR. The game is now being played how it should be played...

Lefty...

What I have read as far as claims by bat makers for the 2012 bats, one thing that stands out ... Bigger Sweet Spot!

Watching college baseball on TV the announcers all talk about less pop and smaller sweet spot. About the only change that can be made and still stay within the .50 BBCOR rating is the size of the sweet spot. Unless as stated before, they put out junk the first time.

You might start seeing college fences moved in.
I was talking with a college coach a couple weeks back and he said there were still some D1 schools out there without a homerun.

One of the reasons people liked college baseball was the increased offense. They could start losing fans. A few weeks ago I was watching Texas vs. TCU (I think it was) and I couldn't take it anymore and went to bed after the 13th inning and the score was still 0 - 0. Starting to be as exciting as s****r.

quote:

I think manufacturers like LS continually improve their products, other wise they would not have remained in business for the last million years.

Louisville Slugger is a great company. They built their reputation from way, way, way 'back-when' on their great wood bats and they did a terrific job with metal as well...when there was an environment for true engineering innovation and performance advances in metal bats LS was right there. They are still making nice wood bats for pros and amateur players.

They will also be able to hold on to lots of their metal bat market share because their brand name and advertising are strong--but none of that means their 0.50 BBCOR is any better than another company's 0.50 BBCOR.

Don't get me wrong--I am not against the 0.50 BBCOR limitation, I am strongly for it. The trampoline characteristics of composites were absolutely getting out of hand--it's no joke how frequently kids have been seriously injured by hot-shots off of composite-technology bats in the past several years.

Baseball is supposed to be a finely balanced struggle between offense and defense--that's what makes it a compelling game....not techno-offensive blow-outs powered by metal trampoline-bats.

Another one of the great positives of 0.50 BBCOR standard, at least potentially: Wood bats may make a real come-back in High School ball. If it happens it will be slow. There is not nearly the profit margin in natural wood bats as there is in metal products and metal bat manufacturers will try as hard as they can to keep their profit margin by controlling the public's perception...

Even so, HS players who really enjoy the sights and sounds of old-school baseball can now hit with wood without giving up any serious advantage to the 0.50 BBCOR metals. How sweet is that?

Good post LA! I agree 100%

I saw one college game on TV where the catcher, I think, hit a homerun that cleared the bleachers... totally crushed (can't remember the schools).
I was thinking.... does anybody know the time difference it takes a ball, crushed back to the pitcher, when hit with BBCOR vs. BESR? I mean a ball hit hard enough for a home run, same swing speed etc... what's the max speed on both and how long would it take to travel the first 55 feet.
After a pitcher finishes his pitch he's closer to 55 than 60 feet. How much more safety are we talking?

I think we are going to see a lot more bat doctoring especially with the bats that have had the walls thickend to meet the BBCOR standard. If they really want to stop bat tampering they can do it with a rolled end cap or unremovable one with the barrel enclosing it. I find it interesting that Louisville Slugger who went the thicker wall route on the omaha has went to using a brace or a big O ring on th 2012 Exo Grid following Easton and Demarini. I wonder if any bats have been pulled from H.S. OR college games because of suspected tampering ?

This is from Demarini on their new vexum;

"DeMarini's newest technology, called Taper Ring, allows BBCOR bats to perform at the very top of the standard. Ring placement close to the taper rather than in the barrel allows DeMarini to maintain the integrity of the sweetspot."

Now I know that's marketing but this is what I expect. They will all figure out the best way to get the maximum results.

The first ones were junk. Great BP bats though.......

Hawg,

As far as I am aware, legal BESR's were about 5% hotter than wood, right out of the box. That doesn't sound like much but it was probably the difference between many 300-foot fly-outs vs 315-foot home runs down the left-field or right-field lines. In the gaps it may have been the difference between many 350-foot fly-outs versus 370-foot home runs.

In terms of the pitcher's safety, the 5% difference is probably best expressed by batted ball speed. That is, if a hitter could send the ball back toward the pitcher at 90 mph with a 34"(-3) wood bat, then an identical swing with a new 34" (-3) BESR would send the ball back at about 95 mph. I think most players would have a more difficult time reacting to 95 mph than 90 mph.

But, in some ways, greed has killed the BESR bat standard--as if 5% advantage weren't enough, bat designers realized over the past decade or so that some metal bat construction materials get hotter, more springy, with normal use (or with illegal "rolling"). That increased the BESR advantage from 5% to really bad numbers: 10% to 15% hotter. That much advantage turned 90 mph batted balls into 100+ mph rockets coming back at the pitcher. That also turned 300-foot fly-outs into 345-foot bombs down the lines.

The BBCOR standard doesn't eliminate the possibility of batted ball injury, it re-balances the struggle between offense and defense and it lowers the probability of injury to pitchers by putting more come-backers within the range of normal human reaction time.

I've personally seen about 10 home runs hit with BBCOR bats this year--several at JUCO games, a few at D-3 college games, and even one at a D-1 college tournament held at AT&T Park in SF...I think the college game is more exciting to watch now because it clearly takes real skill and talent to hit one out of the park.

The composite bats were getting a bit out of hand. When my guys were 12, and I was coaching their Little League All Star team, they were using the composite Little Barrel Combat bats...

Some of my better hitters were hitting balls that just didn't seem possible at that age. Reaction time? You think it's tough on 60/90, try 46/60 with some pitchers hitting 70+ mph from the short mound.

I'd like to see wood make a come back personally. I think it would make scouts job easier when it comes to hitters and "all of sudden" pitching would start "Getting better"....

ct&c,

I want to see wood make a significant comeback in HS/college/rec ball too...but perception dies hard, and bat companies do have a deeply vested interest in metal, so they are not going to lead the way. On the contrary, bat companies are going to do everything they can to keep you in the habit of buying newly "upgraded" BBCOR bats every year or so.

If you want to see wood make a comeback on the ball field, buy wood and start hitting with it. You can get at least 4 really nice maple bats, or perhaps 5 nice white ash bats, for the typical price of a single 0.50 BBCOR metal bat. Wood sounds great, hits just as well as BBCOR, and may sometimes give you a psychological advantage: Hitting with wood in an all-metal environment used to be a symbol of extreme in-your-face machismo: You had to be really, really good to compete against hotted-up BESRs with a wood bat... opponents knew that and were sometimes intimidated by hitters swinging wood under those circumstances. I think some of that "reverse edge" might still exist, even though the playing field has really been leveled by BBCOR.

Unless you have extraordinarily bad luck, or you like the feeling of getting jammed inside on the handle, you are probably not going to break 4 wood bats per year at HS level. For the past two years, my son has been swinging wood in all practices, Fall Ball, and reg season HS games. He breaks maybe 2 or 3 bats per year.

LAflippen;

If you need wood bats let me know. We have a SSK Memorial Weekend tournament at SRJC, SSU and Doyle Park. Two teams from Mexico are entered.
24 games for the 12 teams.
We can place your son on a team.

Bob Williams
International Baseball
<www.goodwillseries.org>

BBCOR Bats Explained

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ture=player_embedded


Major League Baseball scouts praise college bats

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/b...=ap-scouting-newbats

quote:

Originally posted by Sdlefty: Exactly! They were rushed, and the first product out was junk but getting better. I too prefer the kids playing with BBCOR than the old BESR. The game is now being played how it should be played...

How do you figure they were “junk” and “rushed”? Do you not understand that the they were all working on the BBCOR standard for at least 2 years, and the manufacturers knew it was coming, and had their engineers working on it for more than just a month or two.

Will they continue tweaking? Of course! That’s the nature of the beast. But to call the bats junk is casting aspersions based on facts that just aren’t in evidence.

quote:

Originally posted by laflippin:
…I've personally seen about 10 home runs hit with BBCOR bats this year--several at JUCO games, a few at D-3 college games, and even one at a D-1 college tournament held at AT&T Park in SF...I think the college game is more exciting to watch now because it clearly takes real skill and talent to hit one out of the park.

I’ve seen a few myself. Our HS team has played 18 games and hit 8 so far. Now that isn’t a ton of jacks, but the balls certainly can get out in a hurry when they’re hit correctly.

I’ve kept track of how our hitters are doing this year compared to the same number of games in the past 4 years, and so far this season’s offensive production is better in almost ever category. What I think is happening, is that people get this mindset that BBCORS suck, and think that BESRS and the composites were hitting balls out at a higher rate than MLB, but its only a very bad perception.

Honestly I think that a ball hit good enough, regardless of BBCOR of BESR (or wood for that matter)will go out.

The difference, to me, is the long fly outs or the warning track shots that would have gone out with the older bats.

I think the BIGGEST difference is that you don't see as many FISTED or JAM shots being muscled into singles and doubles.

quote:

Originally posted by laflippin:
ct&c,

I want to see wood make a significant comeback in HS/college/rec ball too...but perception dies hard, and bat companies do have a deeply vested interest in metal, so they are not going to lead the way. On the contrary, bat companies are going to do everything they can to keep you in the habit of buying newly "upgraded" BBCOR bats every year or so.

If you want to see wood make a comeback on the ball field, buy wood and start hitting with it. You can get at least 4 really nice maple bats, or perhaps 5 nice white ash bats, for the typical price of a single 0.50 BBCOR metal bat. Wood sounds great, hits just as well as BBCOR, and may sometimes give you a psychological advantage: Hitting with wood in an all-metal environment used to be a symbol of extreme in-your-face machismo: You had to be really, really good to compete against hotted-up BESRs with a wood bat... opponents knew that and were sometimes intimidated by hitters swinging wood under those circumstances. I think some of that "reverse edge" might still exist, even though the playing field has really been leveled by BBCOR.

Unless you have extraordinarily bad luck, or you like the feeling of getting jammed inside on the handle, you are probably not going to break 4 wood bats per year at HS level. For the past two years, my son has been swinging wood in all practices, Fall Ball, and reg season HS games. He breaks maybe 2 or 3 bats per year.

I agree.

Actually my son does hit with wood during BP and his JV coach kind of questioned it a bit (he is an 8th grader) until he saw the results.

I just ordered a Maple and Bamboo bat (1 each) so the kid is excited about this. He's been swinging Ash the last two years. Normally he used the wood bat in BP and they usually last him a season. $40-50 for a season of BP? Works for me.

I've never been one to jump on the hottest bat bandwagon anyway. I normally would buy the last year's model when the new models come out.

In VA High school ball they can can use a BESR Alum bat, or a BESR composite handle / metal barrel. Full composites are already banned here. He's been hitting with the same BESR Omaha he used last year. He's since tried all the big name bats that his teammates are using and he said point blank (and it's funny 3 of the 10th graders on his JV team agreed with him) that he'd rather use Wood than any of the BBCOR bats he's hit with so far.

Junk may be a little strong. All I know is Demarini was one of the first on the market with BBCOR bats and from 2011 to 2012 they have totally changed their technique of meeting the BBCOR standard.
2011 they used a method that tapered the wall thickness and 2012 they are using disks inside. A complete 180. It's like they realized there was a better way to do it after they started making the bats.

Well I look at it this way.

If one BBCOR Bat, let's say the Omaha is $199....is the other bat $200 BETTER than the Omaha?

Of course I always buy'em a year later anyway...

And if my son wants a $300 bat, he can use his OWN money. I think the $300 would be better spent on workout sessions to get stronger...

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:
Well I look at it this way.

If one BBCOR Bat, let's say the Omaha is $199....is the other bat $200 BETTER than the Omaha?

Of course I always buy'em a year later anyway...

And if my son wants a $300 bat, he can use his OWN money. I think the $300 would be better spent on workout sessions to get stronger...

For the price the Omaha is a great bat.

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:
Honestly I think that a ball hit good enough, regardless of BBCOR of BESR (or wood for that matter)will go out.

The difference, to me, is the long fly outs or the warning track shots that would have gone out with the older bats.

I think the BIGGEST difference is that you don't see as many FISTED or JAM shots being muscled into singles and doubles.

I think you’re basically on the right track, but allow me to add a little something.

I believe that many of the long fly outs that would have gone out with the older bats, would only have gone out if the bat was a top-of-the-line, completely broken in(rolled) bat. The reason I say that is, lots and lots of HS players I’ve watched are using waived bats, and they don’t seem to have a lot of extra pop in them, if any at all, compared to the straight BBCORs. So while it is true that there were bats that gave a real benefit to hitters, by no means was every hitter using them.

I don’t know about the “FISTED or JAM shots being muscled into singles and doubles” because I don’t know of any real way to measure anything like it. I will surely admit there is a “PERCEPTION” that that’s happening, and for sure common sense dictates that it SHOULD happen, but as to the whether there are to choose some number, 30% fewer of those things happening, I don’t know.

Duck Farts and lucky hits happen from the LL to the ML and in all levels between, and I know of no way to quantify how much the bat has to do with them.

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:
Well I look at it this way.

If one BBCOR Bat, let's say the Omaha is $199....is the other bat $200 BETTER than the Omaha?

Of course I always buy'em a year later anyway...

And if my son wants a $300 bat, he can use his OWN money. I think the $300 would be better spent on workout sessions to get stronger...

Your reasoning is flawless, and of course the answer to your question is that even if it is better, it isn’t 33% better, or anything even approaching that.

Way back when the CA HS season 1st got going, there was a BBCOR bat a local Sports Authority was carrying for as little as $40. Even though I have no kid playing ball anymore, I couldn’t resist checking it out. Turns out, it was an Easton Hammer.

I couldn’t resist, so I picked up a 33/30 and took it to the team’s practice the next day. I didn’t say a word to any of the players, but gave it to the coach. He didn’t say anything either, but threw it in the team’s bat bag that was always available for anyone who wanted it.

In the bag there were a couple of waived C4’s, some woodies, and a few older bats just to use for BP. It didn’t take long for someone to grab the “new” bat, and start hackin’. When they got done with the cages, they went to the field for an intersquad game, and that $40 bat was the talk of the afternoon. One kid even hit a ball well over the 385’ sign with it, and there were several very well hit shots.

Even the kid who’s dad had picked up one of the 1st Omaha’s right from the LS factory thought it was at least as “hot” as his bat. The amazing thing was, not one person went down and grabbed one for himself or his kid. When I asked one dad why, he said if it only cost $40, it must be a piece of ****, and he wasn’t wasting his money.

In the end, until this BBCOR thing gets shaken out a bit more, especially with all the states other than Ca having to go through all the angst next year, people aren’t gonna realize that more $$$$$ doesn’t not mean more oomph.

We had 6 players hitting with wood bats this HS season. They were hitting the ball just fine. One kid is actually tearing it up. He said he would swing wood until he found a metal he was comfortable with. He started using a Marucci about a week ago.
I think the bat they feel most comfortable with is the best bat regardless of the cost. I say this meaning it doesn't need to be expensive.

sgvbaseball - I know you have some outstanding players in your program. Are the kids using the wood bats potentially draftable guys? One school of thought is that if you are going to college you better get used to bbcor bats so why not use them now. I have seen one kid up north use wood and he is potentially a top 3-4 round kid. Just curious......

The guys using them are 2012's. Some will are draft guys and others will be college guys. They just felt more comfortable with them. They only time they had used metal is when the HS season started because there was such a mess on what bats were legal and available. I would say most of our upperclassman only use metal during the HS season. Our guys are using Eastons, DeMarinis and Maruccis. They felt not much difference in pop and went with what felt good swinging.

I am looking for some info on the Marucci Cat5(bbcor version). Anyone have any info of these?

Our guys seem to like the Marucci. Our top two guys use it.

Anyone get their hands on any 2012 models yet? I am watching Florida and Arkansas right now and they are using new bats from Easton. These bats are not even on Easton's website yet.

go to http://bbcorbats.com/ They dont even sell bats. They have info/ratings/blogs about each 2012 bat. They also have links to the best prices on the net. It helped me anyway.

BBCORbats.com doesnt even have the years right on most of those bats. Heres something on the new Eastons I found http://compositebats.com/2012e...rigade-baseball-bat/

As I thought with my OP the 2012 models are sure better than the first ones out last year. Both sons have hit with the new voodoo and the new Rawlings Machine. The Machine at first glance seems to be the better of the two. It's a personal thing but I can say for certain that these bats are way better than the Easton Surge that we used early last year. That bat was not good. I like the bbcor standards, especially now that there are a lot of options and you can pick one that "feels" good in your hands.

Goodwill Series teams recently returned from Australia. Winning 16 games.

Our 2 teams coached by pro scouts and wear the ML uniform of the Cubs and Rays. The 30 players ages 14-18 played 25 games in 15 days against the best players in the STATES of Queensland and South Australia.

Our players had 900 AB and we used the SSK wood [my son, Robert sells the bats to MLB players]. Only 5 bats were broken in the 15 days.

When I started the Area Code games in 1987, we have used wood. n
We have GWS events in Santa Rosa - Memorial Weekend and July 4.
Mexico and Australia will join our events in 2012. We invite West Coast teams to consider. Please send e-mail to <rwilliams@goodwillseries.org>

Bob Williams
<www.goodwillseries.org>

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Williams:
Goodwill Series teams recently returned from Australia. Winning 16 games.

Our 2 teams coached by pro scouts and wear the ML uniform of the Cubs and Rays. The 30 players ages 14-18 played 25 games in 15 days against the best players in the STATES of Queensland and South Australia.

Our players had 900 AB and we used the SSK wood [my son, Robert sells the bats to MLB players]. Only 5 bats were broken in the 15 days.

When I started the Area Code games in 1987, we have used wood. n
We have GWS events in Santa Rosa - Memorial Weekend and July 4.
Mexico and Australia will join our events in 2012. We invite West Coast teams to consider. Please send e-mail to <rwilliams@goodwillseries.org>

Bob Williams
<www.goodwillseries.org>

I’m not quite understanding the purpose of the post. Are you letting everyone know about the success of the teams that went to Australia, is it a commercial to help your son make more $$$$, or is it an advertisement for the tournaments you run?

Do you want comments or is it just informational?

My objective is compare the cost of using wood bats in a competitive situation. The cost of each maple bat is $70.00 and in 900 AB in 15 days and 25 games = $350.00. This is the cost of a new metal bat.

Since Goodwill Series is a International development program and for 29 years, our goal has been to develop the young player to hit, run, throw and play defense.We have over 300 alumni who have played in the Major Leagues.

Our coaches are pro scouts or former ML players who can teach the game.

As of today, one of our coaches has remained in Australia to teach the STATE team of South Australia.

Each year, GWS contributes to the HS web site and conducts "golf" tournaments to assist our players in their travel costs.

This year, 7 players will receive college scholarships from the recommendations of our coaches [scouts].

Your comments are appreciated.

Bob