Is there such a rule for a pickoff attempt? I don't believe that there is anything in FED that says anything other then the Pitcher must step at the base. Is it different in MLB?
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NFHS Casebook 6.2.4 SITUATION B: With R1 on first, F1 attempts a pickoff while stepping at an angle but to the home plate side. RULING: Balk. To comply with the requirement to “step directly toward,” F1 must step to the first-base side of a 45-degree angle between center of pitcher’s plate and between home and first base. (6-2-4b)
So it is a rule in FED.
NCAA 9-1a(6) The pitcher must step directly and gain ground toward a base in an attempt to pick off a runner. “Directly” is interpreted to mean within a 45-degree angle measuring from the pivot foot toward the base the pitcher is throwing to or feinting a throw.
I'm not aware of an explicit mention of a 45 degree line OBR. But the language of the rule (distance and direction) amounts to the same thing.
So it is a rule in FED.
NCAA 9-1a(6) The pitcher must step directly and gain ground toward a base in an attempt to pick off a runner. “Directly” is interpreted to mean within a 45-degree angle measuring from the pivot foot toward the base the pitcher is throwing to or feinting a throw.
I'm not aware of an explicit mention of a 45 degree line OBR. But the language of the rule (distance and direction) amounts to the same thing.
Thanks. You mention NFHS Casebook. Is that different then a standard HS rule book? Because I don't remember seeing in there.
The NFHS case book is the supplement to the NFHS rule book. It explains situations in which you would apply the NFHS rules. Some rules in all codes are worded inadequately, so having a case book (or the J/R book for OBR) will help you find some things that are missing from the rule books.
Obviously, this rule is primarily concerning a left handed pitcher. But...why couldn't a right hander do the same thing? Set, lift leg, step toward first, make throw. That isn't a balk according to the rule...correct?
If not, wonder why we don't see that move more often instead of the step off and spin?
If not, wonder why we don't see that move more often instead of the step off and spin?
quote:Originally posted by brookspw:
Obviously, this rule is primarily concerning a left handed pitcher. But...why couldn't a right hander do the same thing? Set, lift leg, step toward first, make throw. That isn't a balk according to the rule...correct?
If not, wonder why we don't see that move more often instead of the step off and spin?
The move by a RHP is not, in and of itself a balk, and is explicitly allowed by rule. However, the execution of the move is a different matter and many RHP's balk in attempting it. Most ML pitchers utlize the jump turn, jab step or will disengage. You will rarely see a ML RHP just step and throw to first.
quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:quote:Originally posted by brookspw:
Obviously, this rule is primarily concerning a left handed pitcher. But...why couldn't a right hander do the same thing? Set, lift leg, step toward first, make throw. That isn't a balk according to the rule...correct?
If not, wonder why we don't see that move more often instead of the step off and spin?
The move by a RHP is not, in and of itself a balk, and is explicitly allowed by rule. However, the execution of the move is a different matter and many RHP's balk in attempting it. Most ML pitchers utlize the jump turn, jab step or will disengage. You will rarely see a ML RHP just step and throw to first.
What would be necessary for a proper execution of this type of move?
quote:Originally posted by brookspw:
What would be necessary for a proper execution of this type of move?
Stepping with the free foot so as to gain both distance and direction towards the base, then throwing to the base. The leg can be lifted before stepping to 1st, but the foot (OBR) cannot go behind the rubber, and the leg cannot move towards home.
The surest way for a RHP to step and throw to first without balking is to use a "glide move" in which the knee does not come up and the leg "swings" toward first with the foot just off the ground.
A basic requirement is an umpire who knows the rule.
A basic requirement is an umpire who knows the rule.
Jimmy03, I'm trying to picture this "glide move". For a RH pitcher from the set position, if the left leg "swings" around I would would have a balk because the left leg moved in the direction of home as it was swinging towards 1st base. But if this "Swing" means the left leg went straight directly back towards first, as he is turning on his pivot foot, then I would have a legal move.
please refer to NFHS 6-2-4 B.
BALK: failing to step with the non-pivot foot directly toward a base (occupied or unoccupied) when throwing or feinting there in an attempt to put out or drive back a runner..etc,etc.
please refer to NFHS 6-2-4 B.
BALK: failing to step with the non-pivot foot directly toward a base (occupied or unoccupied) when throwing or feinting there in an attempt to put out or drive back a runner..etc,etc.
This is why most umpires will say to not raise the leg for a RHP. In raising the leg most will have a bit of kick which would be a move to home. It is cleaner and less likely balked if he simply lifts his foot a little and steps toward first. It is the same move as spinning counterclockwise to second.
Many guys get confused with balks and assume there are two sets of rules for RHP and LHPs. There is no difference in the rules but there is a difference in mechanics simply because they face opposite directions. It is the same to third except you see few LHP pick to third because it is too easy to throw it away and let the runner score.
Many guys get confused with balks and assume there are two sets of rules for RHP and LHPs. There is no difference in the rules but there is a difference in mechanics simply because they face opposite directions. It is the same to third except you see few LHP pick to third because it is too easy to throw it away and let the runner score.
quote:Originally posted by NJUmpRef:
Jimmy03, I'm trying to picture this "glide move". For a RH pitcher from the set position, if the left leg "swings" around I would would have a balk because the left leg moved in the direction of home as it was swinging towards 1st base. But if this "Swing" means the left leg went straight directly back towards first, as he is turning on his pivot foot, then I would have a legal move.
please refer to NFHS 6-2-4 B.
BALK: failing to step with the non-pivot foot directly toward a base (occupied or unoccupied) when throwing or feinting there in an attempt to put out or drive back a runner..etc,etc.
Potato, potahto.
I know the balk rule. Apparenlyt my description was not received correctly by your mind's eye.
The glide refers not to direction but a motion in which the knee is not lifted to avoid the appearance of the pitcher's move to home. The left foot glides towards first from it place in front of the pivot foot in a cotinuous manner gaining distance and direction. It does not move towards home, rather that is the direction from which it moves away towards first.
Clearer?
It is a legal move. As I said, the primary problem it faces is umpires who do not recognize it as legal. Indeed, there are nearly as many umpires who think a RHP can't step and throw to first as there are coaches.
quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:
The surest way for a RHP to step and throw to first without balking is to use a "glide move" in which the knee does not come up and the leg "swings" toward first with the foot just off the ground.
A basic requirement is an umpire who knows the rule.
This, of course, is my concern.
To the later comment about lifting the leg first being interpreted as a move toward home...how is this any different from a LHP lifting his leg?
quote:Originally posted by brookspw:quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:
The surest way for a RHP to step and throw to first without balking is to use a "glide move" in which the knee does not come up and the leg "swings" toward first with the foot just off the ground.
A basic requirement is an umpire who knows the rule.
This, of course, is my concern.
To the later comment about lifting the leg first being interpreted as a move toward home...how is this any different from a LHP lifting his leg?
its the prime example of how the difference of rule and practice influence the game.....
of all the legal moves this one is most likely to get an untrained umpire to mistakenly call a balk........
quote:Originally posted by piaa_ump:quote:Originally posted by brookspw:quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:
The surest way for a RHP to step and throw to first without balking is to use a "glide move" in which the knee does not come up and the leg "swings" toward first with the foot just off the ground.
A basic requirement is an umpire who knows the rule.
This, of course, is my concern.
To the later comment about lifting the leg first being interpreted as a move toward home...how is this any different from a LHP lifting his leg?
its the prime example of how the difference of rule and practice influence the game.....
of all the legal moves this one is most likely to get an untrained umpire to mistakenly call a balk........
So...it is appropriate for the coach to discuss this prior with umpires showing them when the pitcher is warming up in pen?
quote:Originally posted by brookspw:quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:
The surest way for a RHP to step and throw to first without balking is to use a "glide move" in which the knee does not come up and the leg "swings" toward first with the foot just off the ground.
A basic requirement is an umpire who knows the rule.
This, of course, is my concern.
To the later comment about lifting the leg first being interpreted as a move toward home...how is this any different from a LHP lifting his leg?
When a LHP lifts his leg it is in the direction of first. He then simply steps and throws When a RHP lifts his leg it is in the direction of third and if tries to move to first the movement will resemble the beginning of his pitching motion...balk.
I would highly recommend all coaches, particularly pitching coaches to invest $40 and purchase Jim Evans DVD "Pitching Regulations". The demonstrations are excellent.
quote:Originally posted by brookspw:quote:Originally posted by piaa_ump:quote:Originally posted by brookspw:quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:
The surest way for a RHP to step and throw to first without balking is to use a "glide move" in which the knee does not come up and the leg "swings" toward first with the foot just off the ground.
A basic requirement is an umpire who knows the rule.
This, of course, is my concern.
To the later comment about lifting the leg first being interpreted as a move toward home...how is this any different from a LHP lifting his leg?
its the prime example of how the difference of rule and practice influence the game.....
of all the legal moves this one is most likely to get an untrained umpire to mistakenly call a balk........
So...it is appropriate for the coach to discuss this prior with umpires showing them when the pitcher is warming up in pen?
No. It is never appropriate during or just prior to a gameto demonstrate to an umpire. Discussion is another matter, done appropriately in terms of timing, place and content.
quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:No. It is never appropriate during or just prior to a gameto demonstrate to an umpire. Discussion is another matter, done appropriately in terms of timing, place and content.
Good to know. Tell me, as an umpire, how you'd like for this to happen...the "discussion".