4A or 5A - which model is better for the Student athlete

For me, this one is easy. I would always take an opportunity to play/start at the smaller school over the big, state title contender. Most kids won't play past HS, so the more they get to participate, the more enjoyment they would get.

That is just my well-contemplated and insightful opinion .

I would also take the smaller school over the larger school any day of the week. Generally the students at the smaller schools get to play multiple sports. When you are at a larger school you might only be able to play one sport because of schedules. I know this does not apply at all large schools but can happen the more involved you get in your number 1 sport.

so far that's 3 for small and none for BIG.

Why then do the parents of the BIG school districts continue to support the BIG. Plano is about to put forth one of the largest bond proposals in US history to build *** number of new schools on the east side but not another Senior HS for the east side.

Why is that?

Should Plano change its thinking before its to late?

I would think much goes into building a new HS. Southlake Carroll voted down opening a new HS a few years back, instead opting to convert a middle school into a 9/10 grade school and keeping the Senior HS 11/12 grade.

Many people said it was because they didn't want to give up the dominance they have had in sports by splitting the talent, and that may be, but I don't know that.

I know several kids that play baseball at SLC that have either been on JV or sitting on the bench on varsity that could have started at tychco#1 son's HS. I have talked to numerous parents of players from SLC over the years and the opinions are varied. Some said they wish they had put their player in another school where he would have had a chance to get on the field sooner, others said that winning was worth it, even if it meant sitting on the bench.

I guess it depends on the kid.

2 cents worth - IMO, If you are serious about improving and competing, you should always want to play up, at the highest level and against the strongest competition. 5A.

4290,

I agree. I am not advocating playing against lesser talent. The question was going to a smaller school, i.e. not the mega-schools like Plano, in order to give your kid the best chance to get on the field sooner.

texbaseballfan was asking since it looks like Plano is building new schools, but not a new HS. Since the Plano SHS and the related feeder schools total 3500-4000 students, he has a legitimate question.

PD, where are you?

Playing at a bigger school tends to get better talent and coaching too!!! Its no fun being at a school with less than stellar coaching along with marginal talent...

exactly -

The East side of Plano is apparently "busting at the seams" and continuing to grow. Does it make sense to continue to make the 3 existing Plano Schools even bigger versus adding a 4th or 5th Senior HS.

Frisco has done the $$$ analysis and $$$ are not the issue. this brings me to my initial question of what's best for the student athlete - 1 mega school or multiple Highland Park sized schools??

if you think about it, there are easily 50 Plano baseball boys either playing JV or not playing at all because of the MEGA concept.

quote:

Originally posted by 4290:
2 cents worth - IMO, If you are serious about improving and competing, you should always want to play up, at the highest level and against the strongest competition. 5A.

Your comment is more relevant to individuals in out-of-school competition. It doesn't really address TBBF's question.

Continuing to grow the population of a small number of already large schools enables the school to improve and compete at the highest level (5A). But who benefits - the school, school district, the larger community, the minority of great HS athletes?

But this is detrimental to many student athletes, which is who high-school sports should benefit. Fewer students are allowed to experience high-school sports. And that's ashame, because it's a great experience no matter the school size.

With that, I expect there are many, many things to be considered in building new high-schools. The effect on sports is one of them but I don' know if it's the overriding issue. I would hope communities are thinking more about education, school environment, class size, teachers, money, taxes, and so on ahead of the effect on their sports.

I have mixed views on this subject. I don't think Plano's decision to remain large is speficially related to athletics. As many are quick to point out, Plano East has never won a state championship (exclusing non-UIL bowling). They have not dominated in baseball/softball or basketball. To my recollection, they have never made it beyond the state quarterfinals in football. Obviously, Plano is a much older school, so they do have several state championship trophies. Plano West has already claimed several 5A championships in s****r, girls basketball, tennis, golf?

I have not seen the case where good players are squeezed off of the teams due to the limited varsity opportunities, but maybe it happens more than I know. My three sons had opportunities to play the sports they wanted to play. Yes, they all had to make choices when it came to multiple sports. Yes, they may have been able to play multiple sports at smaller schools. But, they got good educations, found success in athletics, were prepared for college, and had no desire to consider smaller schools.

The PISD administration determines the direction of the schools when it comes to the senior high schools. Plano's population is 260K+ at this point. It would be difficult to build several additional buildings to adapt the other model, including the costs associated with educators, etc. Also, PISD has been impacted by Robin Hood over the years.

People choose to live in Plano for a number of reasons, including the reputation of the schools. Athletics is just one ingredient. I think Plano will build a new high school (9-10) and adjust boundries to accomodate the 11-12 population. There are 2500 kids at Plano East (give or take).....so around 7000 juniors and seniors in Plano. To change models at this point may require 4-5 more seconday schools and the huge costs associated with operating each of them.

All this to say....... Plano schools have met the needs of our family. That's the main thing, I think.

So, in order to go to school with your best friends, you have to live in the same neighborhood? There are arguments on both sides of this issue. Can you move across the street to play for a different coach (I assume not). This is a complex and sticky issue.

The Beast

not sure of the ## 10 but what I have read indicates that Frisco school board has concluded based on their studies that the smaller 4A size benefits the development of students in the class room in addition to providing student with character "growth" opportunities that participation in sports, band, drama and academic clubs provides.

It is my understanding that they intend to keep school populations at the 4A level so as to provide greater participation opportunities to their students. It is also my understanding that their decision is also cost competitive versus the mega concept.

I am hopeful that all school boards (run by elected officials) make decisions that they feel will benefit their students. Why would the "4A level" be more beneficial in terms of student development than 3A -- or 5A for that matter? Why not build 20 3A schools so everyone can participate? There are many 5A schools that provide excellent academic opportunities, in addition to extracurricular activities.

PD

IMO, If its cost effective, why not build 20 and let more compete. the same holds true for having more AP classes, band instruments available, etc.

my original question was:

what is the purpose of HS sports, who are they suppose to benefit, and is Frisco on to something?

IMO, HS sports serve multiple purposes

1. provide a supplement to the parents effort in the development of the character of their child helping them prepare for life

2. assist the more gifted athlete in their persuit of a sports career and/or "free" higher education

3. provide an avenue of "fun" and "achievement" derived from the competition

4. lastly, provide the school/community with an achievement award - throphy in the case or plaques on the wall

Having lived in Plano for 20+ years and watching PLANO sports over that same period, starting with 1 mega HS, then a 2nd and then finally a 3rd and now watching what is going on with our neighbors to the north I am beginning to wonder out loud as to which model is better.

As an aside, my 3 and our family are very satisfied with our Plano academic and "extra activities" experience - I'm just wondering if everyone else feels the same way or if they could do it the "FRISCO" way would they have. Reason for bringing it up now is because the EAST side has the opportunity to do so if they act now.

Only time will truly tell if the FRISCO model is better so it will be fun to watch.

Having taught in the Frisco ISD, albeit 4 years ago, the projections showed that Frisco would need approximately 10 High Schools once the "town" was totally built out. The decision to keep the schools 4A was made so you could maintain somewhat of a "small-town" experience even though their will eventually be 200,000+ people living here.

High School #5 is set to open in Frisco in 2009-2010 and #6 is tentatively set to open 2010-2011. I like the idea. There have been many good points in this thread. I personally think that the more opportunities we give our youth, the more well-rounded they will become. You can never replace the opportunity to be part of a "team" and this gives many more athletes that chance.

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here.

We have known people who moved from Plano to Celina becasue their son did not make the football team. He started for Celina and played on a state championship team. Went to college and has a degree. It was worth it for them.

We have friends whose kids start and play for Plano teams and will attend colleges, play sports and get their degrees.

I like it that the halls are not as crowded at McKinney high anymore, but I don't like that a lot of good athletes were moved. But I know my kids get a lot more playing time because of the new schools.

I think it is too personal and individual to say there is a "BETTER" way.

I agree Sandy -- it's nice that there are options in close proximity to each other. One way works for some, the other way works for others. Now, give me the name of that kid that moved for football reasons. Oops, it's most of their team??? Ah....never mind.

quote:

Now, give me the name of that kid that moved for football reasons. Oops, it's most of their team??? Ah....never mind.

Now now PD! You are the level headed moderator...remember?

When I moved my family to N TX 10 years ago, we went through these exact decisions. My kids were in 6th grade and we knew we would face choices.

We ended up building a house in Plano, but is zoned in the Frisco system. At that time there was only 1 middle school and 1 HS in Frisco.

Part of the decision was based on what was best for the kids. We felt like Plano would give my kids everything they could want and more, while Frisco would give them everything they needed and most of what they wanted. Athletically, if we felt they needed more, we got that outside of school in select basketball, baseball, and track.

My sons played 2 different sports during thier HS years, and my daughter played 5 different sports during this time. I don't think they would have had those opportunities in Plano (no meant as a criticism of Plano).

The year they started HS Frisco moved from 3A to 4A. I have to say I noted a big difference in the programs (more sports offered, Baseball coach did not coach football, and more academic offerings). I am sure there are many 3A schools that offer the same things as 4A schools but that was out experience.

It is alot like what we say in when you son chooses a college. It has to be the right fit.

...and there's always private school if you want to get on the field early.

I'm not a big believer that it matters where you play your high school ball. Most of what you need to get to the next level takes place in the summer anyway.

And I think smaller=better. More individual attention from teachers & coaches.

A couple of things to remember.

1. Southlake won at every level on the way up to 5A

2. Choices are available in High Schools and in Life, do you want to be a Big Fish in a Big Pond or a Big Fish in a little pond. We select careers and companies to work for based on ability and comfort level. This question Big vs not so big isn't just about sports and I am glad this thread covered both aspects well. But it is the same answer regardless of sports or education. The best academic high schools are also the large 5A schools, yes, Highland Park is a 4A school but we all know better.

Do you beleive in excellence? I do. Students can find it at any level but the excellence found at 5A is really a big pond. That goes even more for academics than for sports or other extra-activities.

I guess this comes down to the age old question of: does size matter?

Heck yes, size has and will always matter. Their are always exceptions, Duke, Notre Dame (not lately) Wake Forest, Davidson, and several others. But by and far, the large - well funded Universities always win, always have the best rresearch, always get the best students and best faculty. The Ivy League actually count as BIG when think about this type of discussion. Money is always BIG.

Here are the answers as life has taught me,

1. What is the purpose of high school sports?

To encourage physical activity that leads to the better good of the group. To learn how to win, on the field and in life. To learn and understand that many times in life we lose and or get beat by better people than us....and some times by people who try harder, practice longer and want is more than we do. Student learn on both sides of that equation. In every aspect, excellent is to be celebrated and rewarded!!!!

2. The benefit is a sense of community, of team, of school, of town, to learn to be friends with people. To take direction....as you are told when you are told, because the coach or teacher knows more than you. ( in my opinion, we are losing some of this in todays world)

3. It is OK to select to school that will allow your child to compete and excell at school and on the field. Just remember that at some point the whole world gets BIG adn will they want to go compete and be the best they can be or find a comfortable level exist at. That is fine, I live there by choice. I am trying to encourage my children to a higher level of excellence.

From a purely sports level, there is a huge difference between 5A sports and 4A sports. HUGE. Many kids on a 5A JV team could go and start on a 4A programs team, that doesn't even take into consideration the kids that are on varsity and don't get to play a lot. Don't get me wrong there are some 4A programs that can and do compete at the highest level but not for long or for any extended period of time. Poteet competes. HP competes....but should be 5A, I am sure there are others. Most of them are on there way to being 5A, ie - Southlake on there way up.


There is very little humble about my opinion on this subject. God does call us to be humble and I am about my ability but God does call us to be the best we can be, to be good stewarts of the talents He gives us (our children), sometimes that means selecting a smaller town to live in and a smaller program to compete in. But in the end it was the servant that was given the 5 talents and added 5 talents to that amount in that God was most pleased.

the responses to this thread have been very well thought out and insightful - thanks.

If I could, I'd now like to narrow down and simply ask the following.

Frisco, Plano, Allen and McKinney are all faced with major increases in student populations. Frisco and McKinney are building additional SHS to accomodate their growth. With Frisco, adopting a model that 4A is the optimum size and McKinney saying they want to be small 5As.

Allen and Plano are not (both opting instead to cram more students into 1/3 MEGA, MEGA, MEGA schools). Allen - not sure if they are still just 1 MEGA?

Academic wise - all 4 districts are hiring the cream of the crop teacher wise - so the decision on size has nothing to do with academics.

Money is NOT the issue - you have 1/2 a BILLION to spend at least upcoming in Plano.

So if its not academics, and its not money we are left with sports.

Which model do you think will ultimately be better suited to help the most student athletes.

Plano, despite it's size remains within state-mandated student/teacher ratios. East continues to offer an IB curriculum and all schools have high academic standards. Concerning athletics, freshmen and sophomores can play on varsity teams in all sports and the HS support sub-varsity teams in most sports. An argument could be made that this situation provides MORE opportunity. Some sports have 9th, 10th, JV, and varsity teams. So, whether or not a student is attending a 2-year school (HS or senior high) is not an issue when it comes to his/her athletic ability. It's more about the buildings....and I believe those decisions remain centered around econmoics. With all the business and retail in Plano, land for numerous HS/SHS campuses is limited.

The best student athletes will be fine in both situations. The above average student athlete may find the larger school situation a bit more challenging (this depends on many factors), but East's V teams are not necessarily loaded with superior athletes. The average athlete should have opportunity in both settings. Even in the large school model, the marginal athlete should be able to particupate through 9th grade --- and longer in some sports. And the city of Plano offers a multitude of recreational sports opportunities.

I may have a bit of a different outlook. I don't see much of a difference between the McKinney/Frisco and Plano situations -- other than the younger kids being in different buildings. Most 9-10 graders don't socialize with 11-12 graders anyway (we don't really want them to, do we?) -- they aren't generally in the same classes -- so having them in a building across town is a non-factor. The HS kids in Plano have the same or similar educational, cultural, and athletic opportunities as their counterparts in Frisco.

I'm not one to measure a school district's success by test scores -- heaven knows there is MORE than enough emphasis on testing. Academically, Plano should continue to be near the top (no promotion intended). I believe the Plano schools face all the same challenges that schools in Texas face today.....teen-age drinking, broken homes, steroids in some cases, kids with "entitlement" issues, etc. I'll pull back the curtain....shhhh....there is no such thing as the "Plano mystique".

Every successful school district has a lot to offer. I do hope the press-box competition stops soon.

I think some are making it too black and white, I believe Plano high schools are superior to the schools here in McKinney. I don't believe this has anything to do with the size of the schools. There is more that goes into it than the size of the school. I don't have the answer, but there is no way you can put a broad stroke on this issue. You can go to Gunter Texas (2A) and receive an education second to none. That is because that is what they strive for. Numbers alone make 5A sports a higher level, but there is more to it than that, if not, the largest school in each district would always have the best teams and we know that is not the case.

I agree with Robert in the aspect of it is not black and white. However, you need to look at individually at your student athlete and chose the best fit for them. If their goal is to start on a varsity team, will they be one of the best 9 at an Allen, Southlake, Plano, etc? Same goes for academics, if your student is truly gifted, a bigger school may offer a better educational experience. Most kids just want the opportunity to play and their chances of playing earlier (before their senior year on varsity) would possibly be better at a smaller school with the town's talent divided. Also, there may be a better opportunity to play multiple sports. Out of my 3 kids, 1 may have been better served at a larger institution. The others definitely had a great time with ample opportunity at a smaller school. Academically and socially the smaller setting gave a feeling of community and actually knowing just about everyone in your class. The larger school may give the superior student athlete a truer test against the best competition.

So, if the decision is yours to make, look at your individual and ask yourself what will make my kid the happiest. Some want to big BMOC, some thrive in a large setting with many different choices academically and culturally.

As far as the city's choice to build what type - it is up to the parents to be vocal in what they want. Many decisions are made and then criticized when your say or vote could have made a difference.

I will take 1 or 2 big schools over 6-8 small schools EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK!

Here in Fort Bend County ISD, they recently opened high school #10 (2006-2007) and already have high school #11 slated to open in 2010 or 2011. Here is something to put 11 schools into perspective:

I graduated high school in 1997 from Elkins which at the time was only five years old. When Elkins opened for the 92-93 school year, it was the fifth high school in the district.

In the 11+ years since my graduation, five schools have opened and the next one is being planned. Let me tell you what this has done to the quality of baseball in the area. Yes, more kids are getting to play but there are a lot of those kids that don't have the skills to play on a varsity 5A team. The quality of each time has diminished as schools no longer have any depth. More and more there are games that have scores like football games. There was a 31-0 DISTRICT game the other night. Schools in this area are no longer going to be able to sustain multiple years of success with kids getting rezoned every time a new high school opens. Teams are lucky now to have 2-3 really solid players when a few years ago there were college caiber players going 5-6 deep on teams.

One may think that since more schools are opening and presenting more opportunities for players that in turn the feeder systems (Little Leagues) would be getting larger as well. Wrong. Missouri City Little League has had a steady drop of registered players the last four consecutive years even though the general population has grown. First Colonly Little League has also had diminishing numbers the last two years again even though the general population has grown.

I've typed enough. Again, give me a few big schools instead of a bunch of little schools any day.

4290,
Please see the attached link with respect to your "5A is always best" argument:

http://www.latimes.com/sports/printedition/la-sp-dodrep10mar10,1,1547902.story

There just isn't that much difference between 5A and 4A (or, for that matter, private schools) baseball AT THE GOOD BASEBALL SCHOOLS. I don't think anyone on this board would argue that Coppell is a traditionally strong baseball school and they got thrashed by Waco Midway last weekend. I personally believe that the size of the school matters less in baseball than it does in any other "real" sport.

5A top tier programs, whether it be in football, basketball, baseball, etc.... have the best of the best. With that being said, you see 4A schools beating 5A schools in several sports. You see 3A schools that beat 4A schools, etc.....
I would be willing to bet Aledo, FW Everman, Highland Park, and others could compete very well in some 5A football districts. Think FW Dunbar and Dallas SOC couldn't compete in 5A hoops?

Let's also not leave out some important factors... the coaches and what they get out of what they have. No matter if it's 1A-5A... ever known a program that "turned things around"?
Who has a more difficult job? The coach at Allen, a Plano ISD school, or the coach in Denton/Frisco/McKinney ISD? It doesn't hurt to have 3,000 plus enrollment and an extra 500-750 student population to maybe pluck a ballplayer out of.

quote:

Originally posted by Uncle Ethan:
4290,
Please see the attached link with respect to your "5A is always best" argument:

http://www.latimes.com/sports/printedition/la-sp-dodrep10mar10,1,1547902.story

There just isn't that much difference between 5A and 4A (or, for that matter, private schools) baseball AT THE GOOD BASEBALL SCHOOLS. I don't think anyone on this board would argue that Coppell is a traditionally strong baseball school and they got thrashed by Waco Midway last weekend. I personally believe that the size of the school matters less in baseball than it does in any other "real" sport.

There are some 4A programs that could compete, CC Moody was 5A and but now is 4A, either way they are good.

Midway has a good looking team and usually does. Coppell played the game with several subs and the coach wanted to take a look at a couple of guys. That game doesn't really stand up in this discussion.

Overall, this has been a great topic and I have read every post, some a couple of times. Large verse larger verse Super Large, Florida and California both have 6A schools it really does come down to the size of the pond you want to have your kids swim in. I love the ocean, my wife loves lakes and I love her. For the most part 4A does not compete with 5A and they try to play up to prepare themselves for the season and district play here in Texas.

During the summer and then in tournaments I see the better 4A teams get beat like drums by average 5A schools. Does that mean 5A is the best model, no. But to plan a community around only having 4A schools just does seem right. Iron sharpens iron and you happen to find more iron at larger schools.

Will more kids participate because of a school being 4A, sure but are the best students and best athletes being pushed to be all they can be?

JMO - Plano should add another high school and Friso should allow a couple of schools to grow to a 5A enrollment. Coppell will need to take another look at the same question, but if they do build another high school than they would be a two 3A high school town. I don't think I would like that for either academics or sports or other extra-curricular activities.

This might be a grass is greener on the other side of the fense question mixed with a my grass is greener than yours attitude. I still like 5A for my children for both academics and sports. My daugther got a 3/4 academic scholarship to U of Ark and my son is a work in progress only time will tell. Both of them have learned and will continue to learn how to compete against the best...just like life.