5-8 RHP throws 92 mph at recent showcase

A lot of strikes?

We were at a showcase a last year where there were lots of scouts. The guns went up for all of the 6 foot something pitchers but their arms must have been tired when the 5 foot something pitchers were on the mound because down the arms went, in unison. It was laughable.

Until you realized that the smaller guys were throwing harder and more accurately than the taller ones. And striking the big hulks out. And then you stopped laughing.

I still think Deemax has provided the best explanation for the scouting bias toward big pitchers, when he said something to the effect of:

"It's easier to explain a million dollar mistake if the kid is 6 foot 5."

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
I still think Deemax has provided the best explanation for the scouting bias toward big pitchers, when he said something to the effect of:

"It's easier to explain a million dollar mistake if the kid is 6 foot 5."

Perfect and very accurate quote. What I don't understand is that it seems like most HS and college coaches, and scouts in particular, just don't get this steroid scandal. Do they think that it's all about Barry Bonds and Mark McGuire and ythe record books??? Do you guys think this whole discussion has anything to do with you? MLB and its players seem to be trying to do something about steroids but you guys just continue on as you have for the past 20 years (Gotta get bigger, son). Is there any scouts out there that have the talent to recognize talent and not just "How big is he?" You guys have a responsibility too.

What does the steroid discussion have to do with taller pitchers?
Steroids help pitchers recover quicker, they didn't take them to get "bigger". The discussion is about the height of the pitcher.
I agree with Deemax's statment.
I can see why some think is it laughable. But preference for taller pitchers is because it takes less time to get to the batter, less chance for him to see what's coming. If he throws hard, it takes even less time. Also, there is such thing as mound presence a 6'7" pitcher on the mound becomes an intimidating factor, 5'6" does not. As someone pointed out in a post a while back, if had a chance to draft a successful 5'6" pitcher vs a not so successful 6footer plus, the six footer will go first, even if he is not as effective as the shorter pitcher, because all pitchers have much to learn and the thinking is we can teach this guy, if it doesn't work out, he did fit physical description we want our pitchers to look like.
While smaller pitchers can have success in HS, college and lower levels in pro ball, the game changes on the MLB level.
I may be wrong in my theory, but much makes sense.

BTW, at 6'3" mine is average size in pro ball. His longer arms and legs make up for the extra inches he's missing to be considered "tall".

I am not defending the argument because mine happens to be tall, but that's just the way it is, and has been and most likely will always be.

We have this thread about once a month where size is an issue.

My two cents, for what it is worth. The MLB guys have to find starters that can give them 200+ innings a year. Bullpen guys who can make 60-80 appearances a year. And closers who can pitch everyday. Over time the larger guys seem to be able to handle this work load better. I don't know why but that seems to be the case. That doesn't mean that there aren't some smaller guys out there who are great pitchers or have the ability to accomplish the innings as stated above. But like everything else it comes down to the percentages. I

So yes it is easier to explain a 6'5" mistake, but the odds are greater that the big guy makes it.

5-8 throws 92 but can he do it every 5 days for 25 starts?

At about 5'6" this little pitcher can deldad...much depends on the cost of gasoline though...

www.srl.org/machines/pitching/

Tripledad,
Too funny and so true!

So it is concluded..."If you're short, don't bother trying to go too far as a pitcher. You will only be dissapointed."

and Frank Martin...I really do appreciate your example, but for those scouts and recruiters that may have witnessed this pitching performance the question is..."Do they care?"

i think the 5-8 guy got invited to east coast pro showcase

That's great! Maybe I shouldn't jump to conclusions!

Woody, I posted this story in another thread but it obviously has relevance here. Results do count.

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2706080091/m/6381020932

great story

The best pitcher that I have seen in the 08 class is probaly closer to 5'7. This is just my opinion others have theirs. This guy is flat out nasty and a great competitor. He throws upper 80's with ease and can bump it up there in the low 90's. He has the best slider I have ever seen for a kid his age. His name is Tyler Hibbs and he has been dominant everytime I have seen him throw regardless of the competition. There are alot of kids that are considered small for the posistion but can still get the job done. The bottom line is performance and the ability to get guys out. Size does matter and it always will. But it does not mean that you have to have it to be good.

Ryan Weber is another kid who's fun to watch pitch. If you're into the RADAR gun you may as well leave it at home, but he can sure make a lot of good hitters look bad. Cuba sure couldn't solve him last August. I just saw him again last Friday and he totally dominated with location, change of speeds and movement, not just raw velocity.

Seems to me some guy named Billy Wagner ought to put to rest any idea of excluding talent based on height. But there's probably a list a mile long of successful MLB pitchers under 6' tall.

I've also seen Hibbs and he is flat out nasty. But the best pitcher in the 2008 class is now and always has been Tim Melville, who I think is now 6'4" or 6'5". Not because he's tall, just because I think he could compete at a high pro level right now.

We ranked Scott Kazmir as the #1 prospect in high school baseball when he was a junior and again when he was a senior. He went in the first round, but not as high as he should have, in our opinion.

This past June, the 9th pick of the draft was a 5’11 RHP out of a high school in Indiana. He was the first high school pitcher selected in the 2007 draft. They listed him at 6’1, but he was 5’11 and everyone knew it. He was picked right before two other high school pitchers, a 6’4 LHP and a 6’7 RHP. BTW,

Currently our top 100 2008 prospects list has 24 players who are “listed at 6’0 or less. Nine of them pitch!

There will always be an advantage for those who are taller, but that hasn’t stopped the best “not so big” pitchers from reaching the top. The scouting community is catching on because of all the successful MLB pitchers that are 6’0 or less.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
I still think Deemax has provided the best explanation for the scouting bias toward big pitchers, when he said something to the effect of:

"It's easier to explain a million dollar mistake if the kid is 6 foot 5."

Rob,

Agree 100% - Deemax is dead on.

I see kids now that are 6'5 and above - and I dont even think about whether or not they are "prospects".

I just think about whether or not they are going to kill the poor hot dog vendor with their next insanely fast wild pitch. LOL

PG that was true of David Davidson who I believ went in the 12th round and was told it was because of his lack of height. He also was only 5'10 and was listed at 6'1". He demanded and got 7th round money.

TPM, are you sure the MLB average pitcher height is 6'3"?? I remember doing a check on that awhile back and I think I came up with 6'1.5". Working backwards, because many fudge on height, this puts it at about 6'0 or 6'0.5". I'll try to re-run the numbers and update you..

Bum,
You could be right.

quote:

Originally posted by deldad:
Over time the larger guys seem to be able to handle this work load better. I don't know why but that seems to be the case.

I have heard this argument before, deldad, and if true it would an argument against shorter pitchers. But 1) this might be a small percentages-thing that doesn't apply across the board, and 2) has any research been done that proves this? MLB? PG? Anyone?

all i know is you don't see many 6'7'' guys digging a ditch.

spizzle...thanks for the article...the kid did good!

And 20dad...you're right ...those 6'7" guys aren't digging ditches...they're hanging Christmas wreaths and lighting!

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:

quote:

Originally posted by deldad:
Over time the larger guys seem to be able to handle this work load better. I don't know why but that seems to be the case.

I have heard this argument before, deldad, and if true it would an argument against shorter pitchers. But 1) this might be a small percentages-thing that doesn't apply across the board, and 2) has any research been done that proves this? MLB? PG? Anyone?

I have heard the same thing, I was under the impression because they throw with max effort which can lead to injury later on.

PG,
The 6th pick is listed as 6'2". If he truely was/is 5'11" lets see what he actually reaches by the age of 21.

TPM,

The 6th pick was Ross Detwiler, he really is 6’5. Jarrod Parker is the pitcher that went 9th overall and he is 5’11 (maybe)! He is listed as 6’1. He is really good! And he was the first HS pitcher drafted. BTW, he throws mid to upper 90s with a great breaking ball. This year there is Sonny Gray a RHP from Tennessee that we selected for the Aflac Classic. Sonny is listed as 6’0, but he is not that tall. He throws mid to better 90s with a great breaking ball and scouts are already calling him this year’s Jarrod Parker.

Bum,

Not sure how thorough any research is, but there are some of the best pitchers who ever lived and some of the best at this time that are 6’0 or under. I would guess many more of the very best than those 6’6 or over. I would be interested in reading what anyone would uncover researching this subject. Problem is, some people only do enough research to prove they were right rather than gathering all the correct information.

If someone made a list of the very best pitchers pitching today, future hall of famers, by whatever standards… How many are 6’5 or taller? How many are 6’1 or shorter?

PG, that is a valid point, which is why I was hoping MLB or your staff had some (verifiable) numbers. Even absent such research, is it your opinion that this is true.. that shorter pitchers break down more easily? Or is just an old wives tale? Maybe a fair comparison would be to look at the DL of ballclubs.

I think TPM's notion could be correct. But then again, from what I've read a lot of the more "compact" pitchers gain their velocity from a longer stride (Lincecum), as compared to the taller pitchers. This might be more accountable for their velocity than a "higher effort", but I'm not sure.

Also, as for those most likely in the HOF.. I'm not sure compiling a list of 6'5 or over guys and comparing it to a list of 6'1 or under guys would be fair to the taller guys. If there are 3x as many 6'1 or under guys, of course the list would be longer. Ratios would have to be compared.

This is from the Baseball Almanac.

300 game winners
Cy Young 6’2” 210
Walter Johnson 6’1”
Grover Alexander 6’1”
Christy Mathewson 6’1 ½”
Warren Spahn 6’
Pud Galvin 5’8”
Kid Nichols 5’10”
Timothy Keefe 5’10”
Roger Clemens 6’4”
Steve Carlton 6’4”
John Clarkson 5”10”
Eddie Plank 5”11 ½”
Nolan Ryan 6’2”
Don Sutton 6’1’
Greg Maddux 6’0”
Phil Niekro 6’1”
Gaylord Perry 6’4”
Tom Seaver 6’1”
Old Hoss Radbourn 5’9”
Mickey Welch 5’8”
Lefty Grove 6’3”
Early Wynn 6’0”

Other Notables
Whitey Ford 5’10”
Jim Palmer 6’3”
Randy Johnson 6’10”
Pedro Martinez 5’11”
Don Drysdale 6’6”
Sandy Koufax 6’2”
Bob Gibson 6’1 ½”
Tom Glavine 6’1”

I didn't include all the Cy Young winners just a few that would come to every one's mind or that were in the Hall of Fame without winning 300 games.

Also the average height of the American male is 5'10".

I don't know if this proves anything but I found it interesting and was also suprised at some of the heights.

For modern day players, those born in this century, 6' seems to be the limit on the bottom end. (Exception being Whitey Ford)

Even Young, Johnson and Alexander must be looked upon a little different, because the average height would have been well below 5'10" during their playing days.

Bum,

If anything it seems like pitchers of all sizes break down at about the same rate.

Deldad,

Good list, I also checked Baseball Almanac and came up with this list.

Not sure what this means (if anything) but here are the top 30 pitchers who pitched during my lifetime that have thrown the most innings in the Major Leagues during their career. Only one over 6-5 (Randy Johnson), 14 who were listed as 6-1 or 6-0 according to Baseball Almanac.

Phil Niekro 6-1
Nolan Ryan 6-2
Gaylord Perry 6-4
Don Sutton 6-1
Warren Spahn 6-0
Steve Carlton 6-4
Bert Blyleven 6-3
Tom Seaver 6-1
Tommy John 6-3
Roger Clemens 6-4
Robin Roberts 6-0
Early Wynn 6-0
Jim Kaat 6-4
Fergie Jenkins 6-5
Greg Maddux 6-0
Frank Tanana 6-3
Dennis Martinez 6-1
Tom Glavine 6-1
Jim Palmer 6-3
Bob Gibson 6-1.5
Jerry Koosman 6-2
Bob Feller 6-0
Jack Morris 6-3
Jim Bunning 6-3
Charlie Hough 6-2
Jerry Reuss 6-5
Mickey Lolich 6-0
Bob Friend 6-0
Randy Johnson 6-10
Carl Hubbell 6-0
Joe Niekro 6-1

Cy Young Award winners since 1990

David Cone 6-1 (1994)
Pedro Martinez 5-11 (1997, 1999 and 2000)
Johan Santana 6-0 (2004 and 2006)
Bartalo Colon 6-0 (2005)
Doug Drabek 6-1 (1990)
Tom Glavine 6-1 (1991 and 1998)
Greg Maddux 6-0 (1992, 1993, 1994 and 1995)

The others were all 6-2 or taller. But 14 Cy Young winners since 1990 have been 6-1 or shorter.

Again, not sure if this means anything other than there were some real good pitchers who were 6-1 or shorter. Not many under 6-0 and not many over 6-5! At least according to this list. Guess I’m kind of showing my age on that first list.

Midlo Melville is very very good. I agree projecting as a ML pitcher he is probaly at the top. We faced him at WWBA and he was very good. We actually had Hibbs on our team and he was his usual filthy self. But if I had one game to play and I could take one guy on the mound from the 08 class that I have seen , I take Hibbs. I know he does not project like Tim I totally agree. Weber is really really good as well. He has so much movement on everything he throws and outstanding controll. You cant go wrong with any of these guys thats for sure.

Somebody will have to educate me about Whitey Ford. I do not recall why his career ended. I know he was a great pitcher on some great Yankee teams.

As for the only other sub 6' pitcher that appears on either list is Pedro Martinez. I think it can be argued that Pedro broke down, and it may also be argued this was because of his stature. It can also be argued that Pedro was one of the most dominant pitchers for a 5 or 6 year period. He had the same kind of 5 year run that Koufax did.

PG,
Woops you are right, he was the 9th, listed as 6'2" and hitting 98, or was that not true also?

5'11" is closer to 6" than 5'8".

We all know that there are many shorter HS pitchers and college pitchers (right and left handed) who are very, very good. I do not believe that anyone should be overlooked if they are effective at getting the job done. My impression was also about being projectible, with more projectibility placed upon HS prospects. Will Parker get bigger, stronger and did that most likely fit into the equation?

As far as taller, faster pitchers being wilder I agree. Mostly due to their live arms and that is really hard to accomplish and can take a long time to adjust or never.

JMO.

Did Pedro break down due to stature, velocity or just wear and tear as all pitchers eventually do. Do shorter pitchers break down faster than taller pitchers, or do they last longer?

It's true! Even the fastest, strongest, spud pitchers break down...some sooner than others...

its great to be tall, but pedro is sub 6'

and people forget that for a period of about 5 years, he was the best pitcher ever, statistically

I always read that "max effort" theory. Then I ask so why isn't the tall player giving his all? They call that "heart". I will take a player with heart over a tall kid any day because the kid with heart will fight when things go wrong. Face it its just a stereotype that coaches have. They feel they can teach the tall player but many times are so busy that after they recruit the tall pitcher they don't have the time to truly teach that player.

I had heard the stories of short players having hard roads. I saw it recently though and the system needs to change. I recently saw a a 5-10 player go out at a tournament with college scouts in the stands and throw 12 K's in 6 innings, fielded great, hit great. Not a scout left the entire game. And they left after 2 or 3 innings in prior games. Kid never heard a word. He was throwing 86 (LHP)with great breaking pitches. Kid later said "What do they want from me?" Someplace along the road Baseball coaches started fielding basketball teams.

Sometimes, I get the feeling that smaller pitchers and their parents use this height thing as some kind of excuse for being unable to succeed. While bigger pitchers do create the most interest, it’s not like there is no hope for the smaller stature guys.

Here is one example of a former pitcher who is currently working for Perfect Game.

Richie Lewis
RHP
Bats – Right
Throws – Right
5’6”/175
High School - Muncie, Indiana
College – Florida State (All American)

Drafted by the Montreal Expos in the 2nd round of the 1987 draft.

Major League experience
1992 – Baltimore Orioles
1993 - Florida Marlins
1994 – Florida Marlins
1995 - Florida Marlins
1996 – Detroit Tigers
1997 – Oakland A’s, Cincinnati Reds
1998 – Baltimore Orioles

Pitched in 217 Major League games at 5-foot-6

My suggestion to all the smaller pitchers out there. Quit complaining about the system and go out there and beat the odds.

Right to the point - and true - IMO.

When my son gets smoked - he doesnt really care about how tall the dude is that smoked him.

If you smoke the hitters. - sooner or later - they wont be talking about whether you are 72 inches tall or 68 inches tall.

They wont be talking about inches.

They will be talking about how you smoked the batters you faced.

Just smoke them.

.

quote:

My suggestion to all the smaller pitchers out there. Quit complaining about the system and go out there and beat the odds.

Everyobdy has something...at some point, you are going to have to dig in and overcome the height, numbers, the system, the fears, the guy in front, the coaches...

Overcome...

44
.

We shall 44...we shall.