5th year of Redshirt

Chris,
It is very difficult for anyone to earn a degree in 4 years these days, let alone those involved in sports.
Players that are given a fifth year and earned enough credits for a degree, still with scholarship, can begin earning credits towards a masters or some just take courses just to enhance their degree.
Do understand that 5th year in baseball is going to become a non option eventually.

TPM,
Although I will disagree with you on the word "very" in "very difficult for anyone to earn a degree in 4 years", I would like to ask...

Why do you say the 5th year will go away for baseball?

Ok how about "sometimes".

My reasons for my statement (regarding redshirt in baseball), roster limitations and scholarship max, unless rules change. This doesn't include medical waivers. IMO, the redshirt was used when the coach had many more players than he needed in a season 40-45 and they gave out small schollies (books, 5-10%). Plus in many cases, lack of funding and the economy. Many AD's are asking coaches NOT to reshirt players in many sports. Honeslty, if I had a healthy player that was asked to redshirt these days, I would be leary of them awarding the fifth year. JMO.

The original post didn't ask about Div 1 specifically, my bad

If a player redshirts and graduates in four years it's a great opportunity to get accepted into grad school where he's playing. Some schools have BA/MA programs that are five years. There are also some colleges with six year pre-med/med programs. These require a couple of years of summer school.

This is a good question to ask a college coach when recruiting.
The whole object of going to school is to get your degree, not to keep playing sports forever, if you have successfully done that in 4 years, there is no reason for a coach to pay for your graduate school, he's basically fulfilled his obligation, which is to help you to earn your degree. You may still be on the team, but very unlikely you will be receiving what you were originally awarded. Now with minimum 25%, it may be reduced to nothing. I know of a player this just happened to, 5th year, but no scholarship $$ anymore. It was needed to bring in new players.
I know of some folks here who have told me that at the program their son was playing, coach's refused to award reshirt, even only getting in a few at bats or innings.

CPLZ,
One more thing I forgot, not sure about others but in D1 you can only award redshirt based on what you did the year before and has to be approved, so if a coach is cutting down on redshirted players, he has less to give out and I am pretty sure he has to allow for medical waivers as well.

There are also colleges with five year work/study programs. Northeastern is one of them that has a baseball program.

The question did not pertain to scholly money.

Since financial aid counts against baseball money IF the player is getting scholly money. So, there are times when scholly money is bypassed if financial aid is offered at a higher limit.

So, it is a possibility within the framework of the question that poses no financial burden on the scholly limit.

Wayback, good points, but a lot has to do with the division.
D1 allows 35 max only now. So if you have to choose between an incoming player and a 5th year who has graduated, who are you going to chose? Me, I am going with the young freshman, the future of my team, unless the 5th year guy is going to make huge contribution that year.
Again, ask the coach, NCAA give you 4 in 5, but most coaches don't, unless a serious injury has occured.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
One more thing I forgot, not sure about others but in D1 you can only award redshirt based on what you did the year before and has to be approved, so if a coach is cutting down on redshirted players, he has less to give out and I am pretty sure he has to allow for medical waivers as well.

I don't know what this means, but is spite of my confusion, I'm pretty sure that it isn't quite right. Rather than trying to ask questions in order to understand your comments better, let me just write out what I think is the situation regarding "redshirts". Do bear in mind that the NCAA doesn't define the term "redshirt", and in fact it only appears once in the D1 (and D2) manual, and that is in a list of several situations which don't qualify as reasons to extend the 5 year calendar period.

As most people who frequent this site know, a player has 5 calendar years after enrolling full time in college in which to play in 4 seasons of competition. If he plays any amount in intercollegiate competition, he consumes a season of competition (unless he receives an waiver due to injury. BTW, a waiver can only be granted by the conference or NCAA, not the player's school). During a given academic year, the NCAA does not track and has no way to know if a player is actually competing or if he is being kept out of competition.

At the beginning of the following academic year, each program has to fill out a squad list, which is basically a list of all students who practice at least 2 weeks with the team. The squad list is updated each time there is a change in status of any athlete. On that squad list, a variety of information about the athlete is recorded, and one of the items is the number of season of competition the player has accrued, through the previous year.

The squad list form is attested to and signed by six officials of the school. The criterion for consuming a season of competition is clear and objective, and the school has no discretion or right to "approve" that the player did or didn't compete. It doesn't matter if a player who didn't compete had a prior understanding that he wouldn't play, or if it just turned out that way. If he didn't compete, then in the common vernacular, he "redshirted". There is no limit to the number of players on the squad list who didn't compete the previous year, and the NCAA doesn't care at all if the number fluctuates. There is also no limit on the number of players who don't compete in the current year, other than the practical need for a team to field 9 players from the 35 man roster.

Seasons of competition are, in principle, unrelated to financial aid. In fact, a school could provide financial aid for up to 5 years, even if the player or players never competed at all! Obviously, we don't expect that to happen. It is legal for a coach to pre-arrange with an athlete that he won't play during a particular season, and to point out that the school has a history of providing 5 years of athletic aid to such players. The NCAA doesn't take notice of such an arrangement (unless the coach violates the rules by promising more than one year of scholarship). It only wants to know, the following fall, if the player competed or not. It is the coach's decision whether to continue financial aid in the future.

Note that the number of season of competition that a player has consumed is an attribute of the player, and is not related to the school(s) he plays for.

Has anyone ever heard of a 5th year player being on a graduate assistantship (for a master's degree) rather than a baseball scholarship? Just curious.

quote:

Originally posted by 2Bmom:
Has anyone ever heard of a 5th year player being on a graduate assistantship (for a master's degree) rather than a baseball scholarship? Just curious.

No. GA's are not allowed on the playing field during the championship phase of the season.

3FG,
I found the info last year and posted it, but have no clue at this moment where to look. I remember last year it took me a long time to look for it. I may be wrong but although redshirt players count into the roster, I am pretty sure they do not count into the 11.7.
It was found within the section talking about counters.
The NCAA allows for a player to take 4 in 5, I am just giving my opinion in regards to rules that have changed and how it will affect the above and economics, which has always been a factor for most coaches.
If a coach is allowed only 35, and due to injury or ineligiblity, he is not going to think about redshirting a player if they are needed. Many coaches burn eligiblity by playing in one game.
I'll try to do a search again.

I thought the original question asked what can you do in the 5th year. You can finish your degree if you need more credits, you can go to grad school or what ever but you must take enough classes to satisfy the NCAA rules. I believe you are required to be a full time student and I am not sure the number of credit hours required by the NCAA. I do know that the NCAA rules changed about the credit hrs. I know a couple RS players who are in grad school and they did get BB money for the 5th year.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I believe you are required to be a full time student and I am not sure the number of credit hours required by the NCAA.

Only enrollment at the university and one class is required. When Matt Leinart was a 5th year QB at USC and already possesing a degree, he took a dance class his first semester to be eligible and then stopped going to school when the season was over.

Thank you for the quick replies. I figured that this would be a question that I should ask to each coach, and I think that it may be better to ask each individual program with their perspective on redshirting. TPM-Are you saying that while playing baseball, you would probably need the 5th year in college?

Chris,
What I meant was that most degrees require 130-140 credits to graduate. My son has some friends who do not play sports, and it has taken 4.5-5 years for them to graduate. It's very difficult for some players to take more than 15 credits per semester during season. And sometimes credits are lost due to a shift in majors, or transfer.
This is definetly something you should discuss with the coaches recruiting you, no matter which division. It is not always a given that if you are given a redshirt year, that you will be rewarded the fifth. I know at some programs if you do graduate in 4 with one year of eligibility left, you are not given the redshirt year, due to knew rules.


I think that 3fG does a great job at finding the rules for us, but I have gotten in touch with a former compliance officer, inviting him to join us here. Perhaps we could have a whole thread on NCAA rules.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I found the info last year and posted it, but have no clue at this moment where to look. I remember last year it took me a long time to look for it. I may be wrong but although redshirt players count into the roster, I am pretty sure they do not count into the 11.7.

So I ran an advanced search on "redshirt" with TPM as the author of the posts, and it came up with 100 matches. I've now read every one of those posts, and no, you haven't posted any info.

I've selected a few threads: This one entitled Help (from 16 July 2007) asks if anybody can find a cite showing that redshirts don't count in the 11.7.

Then after OldSlugger8 quoted a lot of NCAA Bylaws, you wrote that redshirts "always counted in the 11.7", (13 Jan 2008)

On 08 April 2008, you asserted that coaches are limited in the number of redshirts, and that they can't have more in one year than they had in the previous year.

And now, in this thread, you've repeated the "redshirts don't count in the 11.7" notion, and the thought that coaches can't increase the number of redshirts.

Article 15.5.1. clearly states which players are counters, and the circumstance in which players are not considered counters. Redshirts, whether medical, planned, or just didn't play, aren't listed as non-counters. 15.5.1.3 does allow a player to become a non-counter if the player is injured or ill to the point of never again being able to participate in collegiate athletics. But even that doesn't apply until the next academic year.

I've also used the LSDBi database to search on all proposals for D1 rule changes (accepted or failed) which have the word "counter" in them. There are 53, dating back to 1998. I've looked through any of those which are generally applicable or specifically applicable to baseball, and it appears that at least since 1998, redshirts who have scholarships have been included in the 11.7.

Limits on the number of redshirts, or there can't be more than the year before? There's simply nothing like that in the rules. And it is contrary to common experience: college rosters routinely have varying numbers of "redshirt freshman" listed.

3FG,
I hope that you did not stay up to late in searching the answer.
I was wrong, when I am wrong I am wrong.

The answer I was given, a coach can redshirt as many players as he wishes, allowed by NCAA, sometimes restricted by conference rules and AD's wishes.
They do count in the 11.7.
What I wasn't wrong about, redshirt practice in college baseball (non injury), due to new roster limits will eventually be limited to medical waivers, which was originally the intentions by the NCAA for 4 in 5 (medical). Most college baseball programs will not give 5th year if the player was not injured AND has graduated within the 4 years.

Interesting the concept of JV teams for divisions that have no roster restrictions (and JUCO) is for players who ordinarily would have been redshirted but the schools cannot afford to give 5 years.

I know this is way off topic. 3FG you do a good job in helping to find the answers.

Strong suggestion, during recruiting ask about the coaches practices on redshirting players.

CPLZ that is interesting. Here you need a minimum of 4 classes to be eligible for sports.

Under the old rules players used to tale lighter class loads and often were short some credit hrs. I believe that the new rules changed this so you had to take a full course load. My son loaded his fall semester with the tougher courses since the spring requires missing so many classes but he will graduate in may after 4 years. I know several that were short credit hrs and had to take a orurse of 2 after their 4 years.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I hope that you did not stay up to late in searching the answer.

I stayed up late, but not because of NCAA rules! Looking at the rules let me cut loose from thinking about work.

BHD,
CPLZ gave you correct info, but perhaps you're reading more into it than is there.

In general, D1 rules require a player to be taking 12 hours (which usually equates to 4 courses) in order to compete. (14.1.8.2) In addition there are a number of requirements from previous terms to ensure that the player is making adequate academic progress. (14.4)

However, there are exceptions to the 12 hour rule:

• A player has no minimum hour requirement if he has already received a baccalaureate degree, and is enrolled in a graduate or professional program, or is enrolled and seeking a second baccalareate degree. (14.1.9)
  
• On the other hand, a player who is enrolled in graduate school, but who hasn't received a baccalaureate degree does need to take 12 hours. (14.1.8.2.1.4)

Also,
"14.1.8.2.1.3 Final Semester/Quarter. A student-athlete may compete while enrolled in less than a minimum full-time program of studies, provided the student is enrolled in the final semester or quarter of the baccalaureate program and the institution certifies that the student is carrying (for credit) the courses necessary to complete degree requirements....."

The common thread here is that an otherwise eligible player doesn't have to take a full load if he has already received a degree, or will receive one at the end of the current term.