90 miles per hour

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Very true.

You may have a kid who runs 87-88 with his 4-seamer who occasionally nips 90. Then he may run 85-87 with his 2-seamer and peak on that pitch at 89. But kids are sometimes not so good at maintaining focus pitch to pitch. Sometimes they may be struggling with command and start to just lay it in there. You even get times when they are coming off the flu, just had a grueling midterm that day, or whatever, they are just not 100%. So that kid who everyone says throws 90 may toss up some 84's on any given day.

We had that happen twice last year. A kid known to throw upper 80's was pitching against us and his dad was there with a gun and sure enough- quite a few of those pitches came in at around 80 mph and he was getting hit. At another game with a rising sophmore who also was known to hit upper 80's was pitching in a game and in the first inning he gave up 7 earned runs- two of them home runs. He too was throwing a lot of pitches around 80 mph. Velocity from HS pitchers can fluctuate substancially at times.

Nothing wrong with fluctuating velocity. . .if it's due to command, and especially in HS. ;-)

I find it interesting that I haven't notice any comments concerning movement when pitching at 90+. It reminds me of comment my son made while in HS and after a game where he first faced a pitcher who was throwing 95-96 and could go higher. Before the game, I later found out, he was really nervous facing pitching with that kind of velocity. As it turned out, he hit very well against this pitcher throwing that heat. I was curious and asked him how he did so well against that kind of velocity. His answer was simply. . . "his fastball had no movement." And this last season a very similar situation at college where he faced Garrit Cole of UCLA who is known to touch 100mph. This time he wasn't quite as intimidated by velocity and in fact he hit his first collegiate HR off of Cole. My son's comment to me again was, Cole wasn't throwing with any real movement. The pitching my son had more problems with was like from UCLA's Trevor Bauer who doesn't have that kind of velocity (still a good velocity fastball though), but sure does have command of several pitches with a lot of movement.

So. . . sure, 90+ velocity is great to have. But, if there's no command land/or movement to it, then???

quote:

Originally posted by Aleebaba:
How few kids end up throwing 90 miles per hour in high school? There is a senior at our school that is up to 93 and he is getting attention from pro scouts, and there is a sophmore on my son's team that hit the magic mark this Fall, (which made certain D1 college coaches drool). The senior that I mentioned hovered around 87-89 in the early Summer, but once he hit the 90 mark the D1 schools and pro scouts began to flock. Got me wondering how often this occurs.

Allebaba,
For the general public of baseball folks, I think this could be as much when and where the 90 plus occurs.
Our son's former HS has a pitcher who lived right around 90mph last Spring. Scouts knew of him, college coaches knew of him(he verballed to Stanford) and those who watched his games knew of him.
During the Summer, he was 94mph, with an easy fluid arm action at the Area Code games. Now he is pretty well known nationally. He is a projected first round pick, depending on the ability to sign him out of the NLI with Stanford.
It is interesting to read all the media coverage and who seems to want to publicly want to "take" credit for something which occurred on a National stage, but had been in a building process for a number of years.
From everything I know, he is very talented off the field, also. Recently, he put on a piano concert to raise money for COPD, playing a number of songs he has written. This part doesn't get the publicity of 94mph, that is for sure.

The HS pitchers that cruise over 90 with an effortless motion are the ones who get drafted in the first couple of rounds every year. Their aren't many of them comparatively, but they are out there.

Not every RHP that throws 90 consistently has bad mechanics, will hurt his arm, throws flat, and has no other pitches. There are pitchers out there that have it all. They are the few that are offered 7 figures every summer.

quote:

Originally posted by Truman:
Nothing wrong with fluctuating velocity. . .if it's due to command, and especially in HS. ;-)

I find it interesting that I haven't notice any comments concerning movement when pitching at 90+. It reminds me of comment my son made while in HS and after a game where he first faced a pitcher who was throwing 95-96 and could go higher. Before the game, I later found out, he was really nervous facing pitching with that kind of velocity. As it turned out, he hit very well against this pitcher throwing that heat. I was curious and asked him how he did so well against that kind of velocity. His answer was simply. . . "his fastball had no movement." And this last season a very similar situation at college where he faced Garrit Cole of UCLA who is known to touch 100mph. This time he wasn't quite as intimidated by velocity and in fact he hit his first collegiate HR off of Cole. My son's comment to me again was, Cole wasn't throwing with any real movement. The pitching my son had more problems with was like from UCLA's Trevor Bauer who doesn't have that kind of velocity (still a good velocity fastball though), but sure does have command of several pitches with a lot of movement.

So. . . sure, 90+ velocity is great to have. But, if there's no command land/or movement to it, then???

then you still get college half paid for and the pitching staff trys to improve you..not a bad deal

I've heard that about fastballs that are allegedly flat, lack movement, etc.

I don't really buy it.

I wonder how many of us have ever caught for a 95 mph guy like Cole. Anyone who says his fastball doesn't move needs their eyes checked. He may not cut or run a 2-seamer like Greg Maddux, but a baseball moving at that speed will jump and hop around as it moves through various air pockets along its path. And even 2" of movement is a lot when you have no real time to adjust. If a 40-50 year old dad, or even a player not experienced as a catcher, tried to catch a bullpen for Cole, he would likely muff a lot of balls off the outer pad of the mitt, there would be sore fingers, some fastballs you would even whiff on (with potentially catastrophic results).

The natural reaction to a hard thrower is for the batter to tense up, jump out early and swing progressively harder. All this plays into the power pitcher's hands, of course. An experienced, high caliber hitter learns to relax, put the barrel in the zone and turn the pitcher's power against him. When the hitter does relax and focus on that kind of approach, it can seem like the ball is very visible. You hear guys say things like, the ball looked big, or everything slowed down for me. All that helps them succeed.

The fact that a high caliber hitter turned one around on a high caliber pitcher is not really news. Happens in MLB many times every day of the season.

But there's no way to argue against this fact: It happens less frequently against a guy like Cole, than it does against guys throwing 5, 7, or 9 mph slower.

My son pitches at a D-1 and their roster is full of guys who all throw over 90. His pitching coach’s philosophy is that pure velo doesn’t become a major factor until you’re throwing 96+ consistently; location and deception (i.e. movement and change of speed) are the keys to getting outs.

Well, it is a factor, in the sense that if the kids had only 85 in the tank they might not be there at all. Or if there, their roles might not be quite as big.

I would translate your son's coach's observation like this: There comes a point -- maybe it's around 96 at the D-1 level-- where you're throwing hard enough to be successful even if the rest of your game is not at top level.

I agree with that general observation, though I think the threshold number is lower, maybe 94 in top conferences and maybe 91-92 in mid-major conferences.

Of course, there's still no reason for a 96 guy to let the rest of the art of pitching slide. Why, if a guy clicks on all cylinders, he might be a millionaire at age 21!

In Georgia, many (not most) teams have at least one (our HS had 3 last year but, none this year) kid throwing 87 - 90. For a RHP (to get drafted anyway), 92 is the magic number. As far as college, even low 80's (depending on the body type) will get you a lot of attention as an underclassman.

Historically our league, one of the stronger leagues in the country year in and year out, typically has a couple 90+ types a year. One year a single team, who came in third in league that year, had 5 who eventually were 90+. I believe 3 were 90+ that season. 4 were drafted out of HS including two 2nd rounders and 1 after college. 1 may not have gone over 90 until college though.

While upper 80s is fairly common, our school has only had three 90+ pitchers in HS that I'm aware of. One of them reached as high as 99 mph eventually according to some reports.

Would you agree that these numbers are for righties only? Efficacy of lefties seems to allow them to run 4-5 mph lower.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Would you agree that these numbers are for righties only? Efficacy of lefties seems to allow them to run 4-5 mph lower.

yes

quote:

Originally posted by Heavy D:
My son pitches at a D-1 and their roster is full of guys who all throw over 90. His pitching coach’s philosophy is that pure velo doesn’t become a major factor until you’re throwing 96+ consistently; location and deception (i.e. movement and change of speed) are the keys to getting outs.

IMHO it comes down to the ability to locate. Throw 9x down the middle and you WILL get hit in HS. Throw 85+ on the corners, in and out, mixing offspeed and you will dominate in HS.

College is probably the same, you just add 5mph to the numbers above. Don't know for sure haven't been there yet.

Coming at this from a hitters perspective, the sense I have from a lot of discussions is the velocities discussed here for HS and college can get through the order once.
The second time through, velocity, location, and changing speeds makes the difference.
Especially in college, velocity alone, even in the 95mph range, the second time through an order of good college hitters, usually won't succeed.

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:
IMHO it comes down to the ability to locate. Throw 9x down the middle and you WILL get hit in HS. Throw 85+ on the corners, in and out, mixing offspeed and you will dominate in HS.

College is probably the same, you just add 5mph to the numbers above. Don't know for sure haven't been there yet.

Top college programs, as one would see in D1 programs, pitching velos tend to be around 88 - 92. The noticable difference from top HS programs is that in college you see a LOT more of that kind of velos. . . .AND, the pitchers have much more command and consistency than HS (as one might expect.)

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:

quote:

Originally posted by Heavy D:
My son pitches at a D-1 and their roster is full of guys who all throw over 90. His pitching coach’s philosophy is that pure velo doesn’t become a major factor until you’re throwing 96+ consistently; location and deception (i.e. movement and change of speed) are the keys to getting outs.

IMHO it comes down to the ability to locate. Throw 9x down the middle and you WILL get hit in HS. Throw 85+ on the corners, in and out, mixing offspeed and you will dominate in HS.

College is probably the same, you just add 5mph to the numbers above. Don't know for sure haven't been there yet.

Pitchers with a deceptive arm action (sneaky fast) that can hide the ball well love that generalization.

on a similar note, what about the kid that throws hard but gets converted to another position. for example, i had the pleasure of watching buster posey grow up. he consistently threw 93 and buster was a pitcher, not just a hard thrower. i know he didnt have the prototypical measurements for a RHP as he was only about 6'-6'1", but he was so dominant. he never really even pitched at FSU. i know everyone here felt like he would be a pitcher, but i just couldnt see them taking the bat out of his hand. the kid could flat rake. i wathced countless games were he was intentionally walked. im talking playoff games. basically if we had someone on base, the opposing team always pitched around him. his last game was in state final against jason heyward. heyward was one year younger but you could tell then those boys were head and shoulders above the rest of the kids. i think we had 7-8 kids on that team that played at
D-1 level, but it was still different. wonder how many other kids would have made great pitchers but never got the chance because of their success at another position. one other thing about buster. he is such a great person. the most polite, humble person you could ever hope to meet. great parents and it shows. he still works with hs catchers when he is home during off season. just a class act.