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I offer a different take on Bonds. First of all I am not a fan or a Giants fan, just a fan of baseball and the greatness of the game. Bonds is the media's number one threat because he is honest, upfront,a jack***, and tells it like it is. I also feel that the whole steroid scandal should of started a few years back during the homerun chase on Ruth's record. But if you remember correctly Baseball was recovering from a strike and Michael Jordan was taking the NBA to new heights. Baseball was desperate and attendance was horrible. Baseball turned its back on steroids back then but now that it is all over the news they want to do something about it now???? No really , really think about it from a different view and really take everything in before you wish any ill-well to someone who basically was created by baseball.....

I watched Brett Boone when he was with the Padres and I saw him again when he was with the Mariners, unreal. I mean protein Shakes can only take you so far. The list goes on and on. Hopefully 30 hrs and 95-100 rbi's will be respectable again and not looked at as average numbers.
- "Any time you have an opportunity to make a difference in this world and you don't, then you are wasting your time on Earth"." - Roberto Clemente
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Heres the facts. Bonds is not the only one on steroids or the only one that has been on steroids. The real reason he is attacked more than others is he is the one approaching and surpassing the records. The records that we and all those that respect the game believe are untainted. Was Maris Ruth or Aaron on steroids? There can be no doubt that they were not. Is there any doubt that Bonds is or has been on steroids? I dont think so. The statement that steroids cant help you hit the ball and help you with hand eye coordination is a joke. Thats not the point at all. If your in the League and a good hitter that is a given already. Steroids make you stronger a warning track fly ball out is now a homerun. Over the course of a 162 game season it only takes about 20 of these to go from a 40 hr season to a 60 hr season. Add in the smaller parks and watered down pitching and there you go. If you cant look at Bonds and others and see the FACT that they are juiced you are living in wonderland. He is attacked more than others because his records are making a mockery of the game. Add on the fact that he is arrogant about it and plays the card whenever he is questioned about steroids is there any reason why he is so disliked and not respected? Oh by the way body armor doesnt hurt does it. And whenever anyone throws inside they are threatened with ejection or a fight. When a guy hits a jack I dont want any doubt in my mind. I dont want to be wondering if he is juiced or not. Untill baseball removes all doubt it will never be the same for me. I will bet now that testing is in place the numbers will drop significantly this year for HRs.
As a Giants fan, I'm obviously biased about Bonds. I understand that he took steroids like many others, and don't want to get into whether it was done with or without knowledge. He used them, many others have also used them. The difference is that many others haven't gone on to do the things Bonds has done over the span of an incredible career. With all the talk about Home Runs, it seems people are forgetting his batting average, on-base percentage and the fact that he's produced these numbers without a Jeff Kent hitting behind him the last few years.

I was recently talking with a friend who is a retired MLB player. We were talking about guys juicing, and he made the comment that even though Bonds has done it, he can remember a game back when Bonds was with the Pirates when he hit a home run at Veterans Stadium in an upper deck area where nobody had ever hit a ball. That was back in his "smaller" days. He said that even then, Bonds could do things that left everyone else in awe. Like Hank Aaron, Bonds has built his home run totals on a long string of seasons in which he's hit 35-49 home runs, with the one exception of the 73 home run season. Maybe 'roids propelled him to the single season record, maybe they didn't, but over the course of his career he's amassed a statistical record that has to be given its due. Bonds can be a total jerk, but there is no denying that we're watching the best hitter of our time. There is more to his greatness than just the Home Runs.
Last edited by 06catcherdad
quote:
The records that we and all those that respect the game believe are untainted.


Very few records are "untainted". Ruth didn't have to face the best players of his day, only the white ones. He never had to play a night game. They built a fence for him so his pop-ups would go out.

Baseball goes through different eras and the records of each era have to be put in context.
What everyone has said is true. There is no doubt many of these guys used steroids. I have always thought that this line of reasoning could be flawed to a certain extent. Koufax used all kinds of Doctor prescribed pain killers and anti-inflamatories to allow him to pitch. Was that an unfair advantage to pitchers who didn't? Schilling used pain killers and numbing agents on his ankle so he could pitch in the World Series. If steroids were legal and given under a Doctors supervision, would our opinions be different? Mine would not because steroids give players an artificial advantage.

Just a thought.
Bond's numbers have contributed to the focus on steroids, but I think its a stretch to say his numbers have forced the league to address the problem. There are plenty of other players who didn't put up the numbers until they got big, regardless of how they got the muscle. Guys like Sosa, Brady Anderson (where do you think all his pop came from that ONE year?), Bret Boone, Giambi and even reserves like Bobby Estallela, probably have as much, and probably more, to do with the scrutiny than Bonds production over the years.
Listened to "Bob & Tom Show" this morning on way to work (uh-oh?), when they were interviewing the guy who wrote "Season on the Brink" (about Bobby Knight). Sort of interesting...he said he thought Bonds was the most arrogant person he ever met (not Knight?) and that was really saying something because he lives in the Wash. DC area. He also said he thought Bonds was VERY smart and very attuned to his body, diet, work-out regimen, etc., etc.,...his point being that someone THAT smart and that "INTO" his body would never ingest/use something without knowing exactly what it is. Bonds is no Rev. Jim Jones devotee...who could be talked into drinking the grape Kool-Aid.

My own view of the effect of steroids is this: No, it probably doesn't improve your eyesight OR, technically, your hand/eye coordination, but it DOES makes you stronger and quicker. Sure, you "still have to hit the ball" (as Bonds/others have been known to say), but additional strength/quickness undoubtably enhances their ability to wait on a pitch and still get their hands through the ball. It would also, I think, give them the strength/quickness to make the innumerable minor adjustments during the course of their swing...thereby permitting solid contact with a pitched ball whose position is constantly changing in three planes (ball's distance from pitcher; its height; and, its side-to-side movement).

How much are these two "modest" gains in performance worth?...millions and millions of dollars and numerous baseball records. Steroids may not be able to turn the proverbial "pig's ear [here insert name of poor player of your choice] into a silk purse [here insert name of high caliber player of your choice]", but it sure made that silk purse, WAY silkier.

I confess that I DON'T have the answer on where the line shold be drawn and Wildthingking has a point..."Tommy John" surgery, even setting broken bones, enhance "natural performance," I guess. It all looks gray to me...
SoCalDad writes
quote:
Baseball goes through different eras and the records of each era have to be put in context.


So what side note should we put next to Hank Aaron in reference to the context of his era and his accomplishment?

How about, "Hank hit the most legitimate homeruns ever and did so with honesty and class in an era where honesty, class and fair play still meant something".
06catcherdad, it's Barry's numbers that are making a mockery of the game and it's record books and the league doesn't know how to handle it.. Hence the need to crack down on steriods. By no means is Bonds alone but again it's his numbers IMO that has accelerated the correction process. If Bonds were still in the
500 HR club, this era where 30 HR / 100 RBI is considered an "OK" season would continue another 5 years or so.
To say that records have to be put into the context of the era means what? Did Ruth have the acess to the advances in physical training that athletes have today. He rode trains across the country to play not first class flights. Alot of guys held down jobs in the off season and didnt have the luxury of working out all year. Look at the plush facilites etc of todays players. There can be no doubt about the socks those guys used to hit compared to juiced balls today as well. All eras have their advantages and disadvantages. What I say is play by the rules , play fair if you will. I dont believe that Aaron and Ruth were cheaters. They played during their eras with all the disadvantages and advantages but they played by the rules. I am not saying that Bonds is not a great hitter he is with no doubt. But we will never know how great he would have been without the use of steroids will we? Tainted is what it is. The game has been cheated the players before him and after him have been cheated and the fans have been cheated. To say that Ruth or Aarons accomplishments are tainted because of the parks or whatever is simply not true. They played by the rules set forth and what they accomplished can be measured by those that they played with and against. They were above and beyond everyone else in their era. And so is Bonds except by the way he has accomplished it. Again he is not alone there are alot of guys in his boat. But I for one can not admire anyone that cheats regardless of how amazing the accomplishments are. Bond will neve have an * besides his name on paper. But in the minds of alot of people he actually will.
Interesting points of view.

Barry is the best and will prove to be the best hitter of all time.

For those of you that are naysayers, try hitting a fastball going 93 or a major league slider...Steroids or whatever he might have been taking won't help. More importantly, none of the stuff that he was allegedly taking was illegal. Where's the beef?

You go, Barry...Your fan since the days at Arizona State...saw your dad, Bobby, play, too.
Been - you might be off by a little - the unauthorized [non-medical, not prescribed by a physician] use and possession of steroids IS illegal. Their use may not have been specifically outlawed by MLB until recently, but in general, they still fell under the umbrella of illegal/controlled substances - kind of like the NBA not testing for weed - it is illegal, but not punishable according to their CBA. And...like steroids in the MLB, weed and the NBA...
The 'doesn't improve ability to hit' arguement doesn't address power. Most MLB players can hit; the taking of steroids improves their chances of hitting it over the fence, rather than a warning track out.

And windmill also brings up a point that seems to be ignored all too often: taking steroids without a doctor's script is illegal for anyone, hence the need for immunity when the players testified at the Balco hearings.

Bond's strapping on kevlar to most vital surfaces and then crowding the plate gives him yet another advantage...one, like his clear/cream, that he takes for himself. Previous calls for asterisks had only to do with the situation of the game at the time (number of games played, expansion, etc.)
quote:
Originally posted by BeenthereIL:
Steroids or whatever he might have been taking won't help. More importantly, none of the stuff that he was allegedly taking was illegal.
Remind me not to hire you as my defense attorney. As windmill pointed out these drugs are a controlled substance. Possesion and use of controlled substance without medical prescription is illegal.
Opinions are like noses, everybody has one...and everyone is entitled to their own.

Speaking of noses, I don't mean to get anybody's out-of-joint, but I don't see any easy answers to protect the "integrity" of any sport's sacrosanct records. Please, no disrespect to anybody is intended, or should be inferred.

Advances in medicine, drugs and training techniques will continue. Bob Gibson had asthma, for which he took medication. Presumably, it either "enhanced" his performance and/or extended his career...meaning, because of the medication, he performed better/longer than he would have if his career began in 1920 when such medication didn't exist. Twenty years from now, someone's career will be extended because they had knee replacement surgery. Forty years from now, such joint replacements may be so advanced that they will result in dramatically improving a ballplayer's speed, maybe to the point where a number of players will threaten to hit .400 in the same year. Such surgeries may become so perfected and commonplace that it would be akin to an arthroscopic procedure today. Who knows (or is asking) how many ballplayers have already had lasik eye surgery...eyes nature never intended them to have?

IMHO that's why these records are interesting, but not sacrosanct. Baseball, like life itself, is dynamic...the players change/evolve over time, as does the game itself. Performances of fifty years ago, like the records then set, are unique to their time.

BTW, one of the advantages I think the GREAT hitters have today is the "watering down" of pitching talent that came with expansion. There are usually a few GREAT hitters, just like there are usually a few GREAT pitchers,...its just that the GREAT hitters are seeing more weak pitching. Every major league roster has pitching on it that wouldn't have cleared AAA thirty years ago and the GREAT hitters are having a feast.
quote:
Originally posted by BeenthereIL:
Interesting points of view.

Barry is the best and will prove to be the best hitter of all time.

For those of you that are naysayers, try hitting a fastball going 93 or a major league slider...Steroids or whatever he might have been taking won't help. More importantly, none of the stuff that he was allegedly taking was illegal. Where's the beef?

You go, Barry...Your fan since the days at Arizona State...saw your dad, Bobby, play, too.

It's cheating no matter how you shuffle it.
Surprised at so many of the "long time baseball guys" who usually like seeing things done the "right way" being so starry eyed at Bond's steroid induced homers that they happily overlook the lying,cheating, and criminal acts. Nobody questions Bond's ability or any of his records except for the hr record.
The massive increase in home runs during the "steroid era" weren't a coincidence and the massive drop in homers that began last season won't be a coincidence either.
While I don't agree with a premise of the initial post that there is anything honest about barry bonds, nor do I believe he tells anything like it is, I do agree with the portion of the premise that he is a monster that baseball created and baseball is now left to live with him, if not protect him and others, not unlike the cocaine Pirates of "We Are Family" days, all to protect the game overall.

Jerk that he is, bonds brings 'em in the seats and the BUSINESS of baseball will not throw him under the bus to defend its "integrity" (at least for now or until it is forced to, though don't see that ever happening).

In this regard, I recently watched an episode of "outside the lines" on ESPN. They showed an interview witih a Washington Post reporter back in 1988 expressing his belief that Canseco was using steroids at that time. For his comments, that reporter was apparently threatened with lawsuits and bannishment from the clubhouses. No inquiry at the time by MLB.

Ten years later during the McGwire/Sosa homerun derby similar attacks were made against the writer who broke the McGwire "andro" story. Again, no inquiry by MLB-only MasterCard commercials laugh.

Since the 1980's Bash Brothers days, to today, nothing has been done about steroids and the past will get glossed over as it always does because the hype, the big numbers, $$$$$$$$$ and the "integrity of the game" bs is what sells the game and MLB, Selig etc. don't want to mess with it. They would happily let steroids go on and on if they could. Baseball is, after all, the sport that coined the phrase that if you ain't cheating you ain't trying.

Certainly it will be something else in the future, just as it was always something in the past- alcohol, cocaine etc. After all, if you believe it is making you better, from that confidence alone, it probably is, at least in the short term.

Bonds press conference yesterday was more of the same. Barry's defense was a good offense. Let's move forward he says. Let's not look at the past unless we look at everyone's past he says. I'll bring up the 18th and 19th centuries if that's where we are going, he says (duh, is the race card far behind that comment); and, don't go looking in my closet for dirt unless yours is spotless, he threatens reporters (after all bonds is the ultimately bully, from insulting most anyone he seems to speak to, to steroids to the body armor, to the tantrums if anyone dares throw inside to him).

Unfortunately, in years to come this will all become interesting antidote like Babe Ruth eating dozens of hot dogs before the game. That is what baseball does and encourages to be done. Truth, cleaning house etc.. ain't happenin', although the Balco trial may be more than MLB's spin doctors can handle.

For my 2 cents I believe that bonds used illegal substances and these enhanced his game the last several years and with judicious use, prolonged his career. He is a .300 lifetime hitter. In his first six seasons with the Pirates he hit as low as .223 and .248. As recently as 1999 he hit .262. Other than the one "spkike" year when he hit 73, his highest homerun total was 49 and more typically in the 30's. In the years they were both with the Pirates, Bonilla routinely out hit him in most every category. Great hitter, yes. Greatest hitter/player ever biglaugh
BeenThere,

You are usually one of the more accurate, well-reasoned and thoughtful posters around here so what went wrong this time?

You are hurting your credibility by saying that Barry's steroids are legal.


You write, “try hitting a fastball going 93 or a major league slider...Steroids or whatever he might have been taking won't help”.

Are you also going to tell your son that lifting weights to make himself stronger is useless since being stronger won’t help him be a better hitter?

Why do some normally reasonable people whiff when the subject turns to Bonds?
quote:
Originally posted by denisr400:
Surprised at so many of the "long time baseball guys" who usually like seeing things done the "right way" being so starry eyed at Bond's steroid induced homers that they happily overlook the lying,cheating, and criminal acts. Nobody questions Bond's ability or any of his records except for the hr record.
The massive increase in home runs during the "steroid era" weren't a coincidence and the massive drop in homers that began last season won't be a coincidence either.


Very good point. I guess i'm one of the few that will not overlook it. Will this be another OJ farce? Probably. They will let him wrongly keep his records.
There are alot of things that contribute to Bonds HR numbers. Watered down pitching in a watered down league, smaller ballparks, and yes "probably" steroids. Should there be an asterisk by his name in the record books? Absolutely not! He is a tremendous player, regardless of the fact he is a huge and I mean huge jerk. Probably will go down as one of the 5 best players of all time. Listening to last nights interview I found him to be incredibly bombastic and argumentative. I just wish he wouldn't come off as so holier than thou. If you used sterioids tell the truth, say you did and move on. They weren't illegal in the latest collective bargaining agreement between the owners and players, and nothing could be done. Believe me, the Giants would not void HIS contract. As for Ruth and Aaron, great players in their era, lets leave it at that, and not compare players of different eras because it is not fair really. As a matter of fact I think Ruth also played early in his career when a ground-rule double that bounced over the fence counted as a home run. Just my opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by dadchs20:
There are alot of things that contribute to Bonds HR numbers. Watered down pitching in a watered down league, smaller ballparks, and yes "probably" steroids. Should there be an asterisk by his name in the record books? Absolutely not! He is a tremendous player, regardless of the fact he is a huge and I mean huge jerk. Probably will go down as one of the 5 best players of all time. Listening to last nights interview I found him to be incredibly bombastic and argumentative. I just wish he wouldn't come off as so holier than thou. If you used sterioids tell the truth, say you did and move on. They weren't illegal in the latest collective bargaining agreement between the owners and players, and nothing could be done. Believe me, the Giants would not void HIS contract. As for Ruth and Aaron, great players in their era, lets leave it at that, and not compare players of different eras because it is not fair really. As a matter of fact I think Ruth also played early in his career when a ground-rule double that bounced over the fence counted as a home run. Just my opinion.


The big question is this:
Did everyone consider him the "Greatest Player of all Time" the years prior to his steroid use?

Not that I recall...
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by BeenthereIL:
Interesting points of view.

Barry is the best and will prove to be the best hitter of all time.

For those of you that are naysayers, try hitting a fastball going 93 or a major league slider...Steroids or whatever he might have been taking won't help. More importantly, none of the stuff that he was allegedly taking was illegal. Where's the beef?

You go, Barry...Your fan since the days at Arizona State...saw your dad, Bobby, play, too.

Shelby says:
It's cheating no matter how you shuffle it.


Vitamins are not illegal either. Does it make it a falsity if Bonds takes vitamins and another player doesn't? So from your optique steroids make him not one of the best players to lace them up? That sounds like a moral conclusion not based in actual reality.
Of course I don't condone taking illegal substances of any kind. And, I apologize to everyone who was left with the impression that I (knowingly) would condone such use/abuse. However, I don't know what he took. You don't know what he took. Baseball said that what he was doing, if anything, was not "illegal" or banned according to baseball rules. To my knowledge or anyone's knowledge, he hasn't been charged with anything criminal, either. You (the fans that don't like him, don't agree) don't like it, but "oh, well".

I listened to the press conference and thought that he was "great". Should have listened to the mopes in Chicagoland "blast" Barry for his attitude with some press members. Guys who couldn't hit a fastball or slider if their lives depended on it. Guys who likely couldn't make it in Tball either. Notice how QUIET everyone got when he turned the tables on the reporters and asked them for specific names as to who was making the allegations. Could've heard a pin drop.

I hope he breaks every home run/power record that baseball has to offer. Major league pitchers are afraid to pitch to him as witness his walk totals in the last 4-6 years. The intentional walk figures are LUDICROUS. For major league pitchers to walk him intentionally so many times speaks volumes of the enormous respect that they have for his talent.

Move over Babe and Hammerin' Hank.

You go, Barry.

Looking forward to another 40-60 home run/125 rbi season with 150 plus intentional walks.
Personally i dont care about the steroids, they can be as big and strong as they like, they still gotta know how to hit, this isnt football, strength helps, but you cant just be big and strong, and throw 100mph or hit 500ft homeruns. Sure to good players it helps, but i think the whole steroid thing is blown out of proportion. Bottom line, take all the steroids you want, and i'll still figure i can get you out 7 out of 10 times, the pitchers still have an advantage. I'd say bring back pitchers duels, small ball, and all of that, but it would be bad for attendance, since a lot of people think baseball is boring anyway. So that would most likely drive attendance down. Bottom line, bonds is a great player either way, steroids most likely didnt help him too much, sure some, but he still makes the hall of fame with or without them.
My turn?

First, I get a kick out of reporters getting their unders in a bunch because Barry (or anyone) disses them. As if they are really important. Most of them think they are the story.

I'm not condoning Barry's attitude but rather exposing the "how dare he talk to me like that" reporters. I get a kick out of their pompousness. Is that a word?

Second, I am surprised at the number of old timers that apparently stand on Barry's side. Barry, Giambi, Canseco, McGwire and the rest of the stars that enhanced their stardom is one chapter of the book. They all would've been good/great without steroids.

Another chapter is the ones who made the league instead of a clean player. They weren't stars but the drug got them into the league. This bothers me more than any asterisk beside any record.

The sense of fair play has been ruined by steroids. If I'm clean cut and not willing to take the drug but someone else is, and he makes it and I don't, I have a problem with that. There has to be numerous guys in this category.

Thirdly, for those of you that think the only thing steroids does is increase ones power, and therefore his home run output, think again.

Are you saying the steroids put trajectory into the ball? Please. Steroids help a hitter hit the ball harder. Therefore, his singles, doubles, triples, HR's, ground outs, pop ups, m i s h i t s.....everything is hit harder. Surely harder hit balls find more holes than not so hard hit balls, increasing a players BA.
Last edited by Teacherman

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