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A few questions......

JB Jamie Boval10+ posts
Had a horrible Doubleheader today... my fault for doing young travel ball. Anyway, couple of issues that came up I would like to get feedback on:

What do you guys do about enforcing the pitchers glove rules? I am referring specifically to the color specs 'must be uniform in color, including stitching, lacing and webbing. The glove may not be white or gray in color.' I routinely run into problems with telling the coach that the pitcher has to use another glove since his glove has significant amounts of grey or white on it. I rarely enforce the 'all one color throughout'. What do you do? Does 'the glove may not be white or grey' mean no white or grey on it? I can understand lettering or stitching, but not a 1" border of grey around the entire perimeter of the outside of the glove or an entire finger or two. I know I can rule it has to be uniform in color instead of worrying about the grey, but I don't want to have to get into it with every pitcher that comes out there with a glove that has brown and tan on it as well.

Also, I had a kid throw the bat in the first game of our doubleheader. Warning to coach, he tells batter. Second game, happens again, although not very flagrant - warning again to coach. Batter up again, foul ball, thrown bat, hits catcher in foot, but not hard, warning directly to batter as I hand the bat back to 'hold on to the bat'. Batter up final time, slams a triple to the fence, throws bat, I step around a bat that does about 3 rotations in the air at chest level before it hits the ground, almost hits catcher and myself. I walk out to coach as he congratulates his kid (yes, his kid) on a great hit and tell him I am removing the Runner from the game for throwing the bat and placing other players in danger, despite several warnings. I just made them replace the runner on the base instead of calling the runner out for action. Besides not giving so many warnings next time, any input?

Lastly, after telling coach in pre-game meeting to make sure no pitchers have white or grey on their gloves when pitching, and having to tell this coach to replace 2 other pitchers gloves because of this, when I tell him on new pitcher to replace his glove, he storms out and says, 'this is ridiculous, I have played in 4 tournaments with him using this glove and no problems!', I said well all I can say is he is not using that glove while pitching in this game. He retorts with 'I am just gonna take his glove and make him pitch with nothing, will that make you happy', I told him to finish watching the game from the parking lot. Of course he says that since I am tossing him, then he is going to continue to give me a piece of his mind and then walks from the dugout to about 6" away and tells me what he thinks. Only thing I could really think to do is stare at him and wait until he was done and say 'I appreciate your input coach, now get off my field'. I probably wouldn't of tossed him, but in the first inning of the first game he was giving me flack for making him keep his equipment out of the field of play, not calling obstruction on the 3rd baseman while his runner rounded 3rd and bumped into him (the kid scored easily at home), and my strike zone, admonishing me to 'make sure I call it both ways' before the other team had even been to bat! ...

Oh yeah, one more last thing... sorry. USSSA uses revised MLB rules, and there is nothing about jewelry in their revision, so therefore it reverts to major rules. Of course this coach had a fit "this isn't little league!" when I had his player remove a Phiten necklace. Man I couldn't win for trying!

Anyway, thanks for letting me vent, and for any input on maybe what you might of done different, that is, besides not taking the $100 for doing the DH in the first place! lol
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piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Boval:
Had a horrible Doubleheader today... my fault for doing young travel ball. Anyway, couple of issues that came up I would like to get feedback on:

What do you guys do about enforcing the pitchers glove rules? I am referring specifically to the color specs 'must be uniform in color, including stitching, lacing and webbing. The glove may not be white or gray in color.' I routinely run into problems with telling the coach that the pitcher has to use another glove since his glove has significant amounts of grey or white on it. I rarely enforce the 'all one color throughout'. What do you do? Does 'the glove may not be white or grey' mean no white or grey on it? I can understand lettering or stitching, but not a 1" border of grey around the entire perimeter of the outside of the glove or an entire finger or two. I know I can rule it has to be uniform in color instead of worrying about the grey, but I don't want to have to get into it with every pitcher that comes out there with a glove that has brown and tan on it as well.

Also, I had a kid throw the bat in the first game of our doubleheader. Warning to coach, he tells batter. Second game, happens again, although not very flagrant - warning again to coach. Batter up again, foul ball, thrown bat, hits catcher in foot, but not hard, warning directly to batter as I hand the bat back to 'hold on to the bat'. Batter up final time, slams a triple to the fence, throws bat, I step around a bat that does about 3 rotations in the air at chest level before it hits the ground, almost hits catcher and myself. I walk out to coach as he congratulates his kid (yes, his kid) on a great hit and tell him I am removing the Runner from the game for throwing the bat and placing other players in danger, despite several warnings. I just made them replace the runner on the base instead of calling the runner out for action. Besides not giving so many warnings next time, any input?

Lastly, after telling coach in pre-game meeting to make sure no pitchers have white or grey on their gloves when pitching, and having to tell this coach to replace 2 other pitchers gloves because of this, when I tell him on new pitcher to replace his glove, he storms out and says, 'this is ridiculous, I have played in 4 tournaments with him using this glove and no problems!', I said well all I can say is he is not using that glove while pitching in this game. He retorts with 'I am just gonna take his glove and make him pitch with nothing, will that make you happy', I told him to finish watching the game from the parking lot. Of course he says that since I am tossing him, then he is going to continue to give me a piece of his mind and then walks from the dugout to about 6" away and tells me what he thinks. Only thing I could really think to do is stare at him and wait until he was done and say 'I appreciate your input coach, now get off my field'. I probably wouldn't of tossed him, but in the first inning of the first game he was giving me flack for making him keep his equipment out of the field of play, not calling obstruction on the 3rd baseman while his runner rounded 3rd and bumped into him (the kid scored easily at home), and my strike zone, admonishing me to 'make sure I call it both ways' before the other team had even been to bat! ...

Oh yeah, one more last thing... sorry. USSSA uses revised MLB rules, and there is nothing about jewelry in their revision, so therefore it reverts to major rules. Of course this coach had a fit "this isn't little league!" when I had his player remove a Phiten necklace. Man I couldn't win for trying!

Anyway, thanks for letting me vent, and for any input on maybe what you might of done different, that is, besides not taking the $100 for doing the DH in the first place! lol


wow Jamie what a day you had...first off welcome to the umpires forum. Glad to have you..

Understand that my opinion is just that, my opinion..as to the glove issue...I enforce the no white/grey portion 100%... specifically no two tone with grey...if a coach wants to throw out a glove due to some white thread on a rawlings logo I will put a stop to that real quick...you are the judge as to what is distracting,and your decision rules the day.... I for one will not be part of a back and forth coach's duel over distracting gloves...white or grey...get another glove...other than that play on...

Bat throwing...warn and then eject...you do not have the right to call the batter out...

The coach in your last example needed to go in the first inning....I will not tolerate the comment "call it both ways"... this is a distinct insult and a challenge to your integrity... he is saying that you are cheating...I for one, do not allow that comment to stand.....

That being said I have a very lower ejection rate, but I have distinct limits and high respect for the coaches in my area....I effort greatly to give respect and require it in return...

If I would pass on a bit of advice,other than hang in there and know we all have had those days...

Just effort to remove the statement "get off my field"....its not used by umpires at higher levels ...it smacks of an arrogance commonly found at lower levels...it isnt our field, its our game to manage yes.. remove them from the field, yes...but stay civil, firm and see things get better...

tough day to be sure. you earned your money today...best of luck...
Last edited by piaa_ump
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Boval:
Oh yeah, one more last thing... sorry. USSSA uses revised MLB rules, and there is nothing about jewelry in their revision, so therefore it reverts to major rules. Of course this coach had a fit "this isn't little league!" when I had his player remove a Phiten necklace. Man I couldn't win for trying!


What OBR rule reference were you using for this?
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
Jimmy brings up an additional interesting point....if you do multiple codes and most of us here on the site do 2-3 differing codes, you have to be careful about rules bleeding over into other areas....

If USSSA uses strict OBR, then there would be no restriction on jewelry and you would not be correct in asking a player to remove the Phiten.......if they use NFHS or have a modified USSSA rule book you may be within your authority to do so.....

I often see these types of things happen when we HS and College umpires transition to summer baseball and we cross call rules .....
Last edited by piaa_ump
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
I did a quick look through the USSSA rulebook and I see no jewelry rule. The only basis for the necklace would be that it is distracting.
As far as the grey glove, enforce it and let him have his fit. What another crew did in another tournament is irrelevant. This what we try to stress when we train guys, don't overlook rules to keep the peace, it only makes the next guy's job harder.
JB Jamie Boval10+ posts
I appreciate everyone's responses and feedback. PIAAUmp, you are right as far as telling me to cut the comment out about it being 'my field'. To be honest I had just had my fill with him and succumbed to the weakness of goading him a little.

Michael S. Taylor, it appears on here that you have lots of experience and knowledge, and it just goes to show that even the most experienced of us find out that we are wrong every now and then huh? I am referring to this post from December:

"It never ceases to amaze me when a team seems confused when an umpire says no jewelry in a youth game. I don't know a single organization below NCAA that allows jewelry. There are some that doesn't enforce it but they all have rules prohibiting it. For some reason kids think they have the unalienable right to wear necklaces and ear rings and to sit outside a dugout. They aren't allowed and should never be surprised they can't. ALL coaches should look at their team before the game and make sure all of their glitz and glitter is off. I do it every game and always catch somebody.
OK, I will get off my soapbox now.

I don't want to jump all over a new member but it is a hot button issue for me. Welcome to the board and hopefully you will continue to ask questions."

Michael S. Taylor
Umpire-Empire.com

I don't bring that up to one-up you, just to let you know that I actually read that comment a while back, agreed whole-heartedly with it, and therefore assumed it was correct, as did many others possibly. I think it is a great lesson.

The really fun thing about the entire fiasco yesterday was that the player I ejected was the daughter of the HC, was their catcher, and was their best hitter. That is in no way to downplay the others, she was a very fine player and deserved to be on a 10u Utrip team. But man did I hear it about ejecting "a little girl that just hit a triple!". I had one lady continue to badger me behind the backstop as I grabbed my gear bag, threatening to 'kick my a**' among other things. Man how difficult it is to ignore some of them!

Thanks again!
Last edited by Jamie Boval
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Boval:


Michael S. Taylor, it appears on here that you have lots of experience and knowledge, and it just goes to show that even the most experienced of us find out that we are wrong every now and then huh? I am referring to this post from December:

"It never ceases to amaze me when a team seems confused when an umpire says no jewelry in a youth game. I don't know a single organization below NCAA that allows jewelry. There are some that doesn't enforce it but they all have rules prohibiting it. For some reason kids think they have the unalienable right to wear necklaces and ear rings and to sit outside a dugout. They aren't allowed and should never be surprised they can't. ALL coaches should look at their team before the game and make sure all of their glitz and glitter is off. I do it every game and always catch somebody.
OK, I will get off my soapbox now.

I don't want to jump all over a new member but it is a hot button issue for me. Welcome to the board and hopefully you will continue to ask questions."

Michael S. Taylor
Umpire-Empire.com

I don't bring that up to one-up you, just to let you know that I actually read that comment a while back, agreed whole-heartedly with it, and therefore assumed it was correct, as did many others possibly. I think it is a great lesson.


ALl well and good that you save posts from your lurking days, however, that doesn't explain your post:

"
quote:
Oh yeah, one more last thing... sorry. USSSA uses revised MLB rules,and there is nothing about jewelry in their revision, so therefore it reverts to major rules.


You knew that USSSA had no prohibition against jewelry and you knew that OBR had no prohibition against jewelry. Then why create an issue?
JB Jamie Boval10+ posts
Jimmy:

First of all, I just recently found this website, and in my excitement of how informative that I found all the posts to be, I read several pages of the past posts. I feel that using the term 'lurking days' is negative, and I don't quite understand it, nor your use of it, but whatever.

Secondly, my realization of the Utrip rules reverting to OBR rules was realized after the situation described, but before I posted my sitch here. The reason I made it an issue is because I felt that there were probably others like myself that agreed with Michael's post, and I didn't want anyone to make a mistake like I did when I told that player incorrectly to take his jewelry off. Michael seems to be very well respected and well versed in the rules. It would be easy to understand that someone may have taken his post as 100% correct, such as I did. So I guess the short answer to 'why make it an issue' is: so nobody else would make the same mistake I did. Nothing against M. Taylor at all, just pointing out what happened, why it happened, and how I was wrong and why.

Now please explain to me the reason that you 'made this an issue?'

Thanks
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Boval:
Jimmy:

First of all, I just recently found this website, and in my excitement of how informative that I found all the posts to be, I read several pages of the past posts. I feel that using the term 'lurking days' is negative, and I don't quite understand it, nor your use of it, but whatever.

Secondly, my realization of the Utrip rules reverting to OBR rules was realized after the situation described, but before I posted my sitch here. The reason I made it an issue is because I felt that there were probably others like myself that agreed with Michael's post, and I didn't want anyone to make a mistake like I did when I told that player incorrectly to take his jewelry off. Michael seems to be very well respected and well versed in the rules. It would be easy to understand that someone may have taken his post as 100% correct, such as I did. So I guess the short answer to 'why make it an issue' is: so nobody else would make the same mistake I did. Nothing against M. Taylor at all, just pointing out what happened, why it happened, and how I was wrong and why.

Now please explain to me the reason that you 'made this an issue?'

Thanks


Clearly there is no reason for this to become contentious, as the basis for this forum is to provide answers to HS parents/players and coaches from real world working umpires...

If anyone is searching for umpire rule gurus to debate and expound on all rules codes then this may not be the site for them...there are plenty of sites that offer that...send me a PM amd I can provide anyone with those web addresses...

As this is a HS site, we mostly contain ourselves to NFHS rules, yet most of us do many other levels and we offer help along those lines as well...We do not pretend to know all the answers to all rules codes but we do our best to find them and present them (especially the myriad of youth leagues and variations) as ...we do this as colleagues, and not as adversaries....we do not call each other out when we make errors...

Michael S Taylor is the most respected umpire on this site...he is an authority from everything from LL to College and if he says it I too, take it for gold....from my experience all the youth codes I ever did have a jewelry rule....

Our goal, is to provide quality information and experiences to our other site members, if you are a USSSA expert, stay and assist us to cover that organizaion, I for one do not have any experience with usssa...

my suggestion would be in the future, to do that sort of observation/correction in PM.....at least until you develop a relationship with us...which I hope you will...

to that end, and I mean this only positively and as no threat, but as a moderator, I will not allow it. If you go on other umpire websites you will see that any contentious bickering leads to the downfall of the forum...

lets move on shall we?.....looking forward to your future contributions...
Last edited by piaa_ump
JB Jamie Boval10+ posts
I guess this is just another fine example of how anything you type can be taken two different ways: again, I prefaced everything I said about Mr. Taylor's post with my admiration for his obvious knowledge, however, I did also point out his mistake. I see people point out other umpire's mistakes/disinformation on here constantly, and I for one, take it as a major point of this forum. Not to tell people that they are wrong, but to share information that may be contradictory to what another may have done, and providing the evidence to support your stance. The point of it all is to have an umpire read your shared information and come away a better umpire for it.

I am not an expert on USSSA. I referenced the rule as something that I discovered after my game in review. Being that I can tell that Mr. Taylor is very well versed, and was very adamant about his stance in his post, I shared everything I had at hand, hoping that maybe someone would point out something I was missing. It is very often that I find that someone with a lot more experience than I will be able to reference something that I have missed.

All I did was point out a previous post, share my experience with a similar incident, and my evidence as to why it may be incorrect. I apologize if that was misread or mistaken as anything other than that. Everything was written to be taken as: "Here is my situation, here is what I am finding as evidence to point out where I was actually wrong, here is an example of "the most respected umpire on this site" (which I agree with) and his statements that support my original position, but hey, let's talk about this because we may be wrong. If my post was taken as anything other than that, then again, I apologize. If Jimmy has a problem with what I posted, then maybe someone that has had much more experience on this forum should of PM'd me to discuss it, instead of seemingly giving me a scolding for my post. Hopefully there will be some understanding of why it would upset me a little.

Moving on, I appreciate the responses I have gotten, and will obviously think twice before posting something again that may be in contradiction to someone else's stance on the issue.
F fvb10100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Boval: I had one lady continue to badger me behind the backstop as I grabbed my gear bag, threatening to 'kick my a**' among other things.


LOL and that would be why I don't work kids ball anymore. I have no tolerance for the poor sportsmanship that is created in an environment where there is no penalty for being ejected.

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