A LHP Strategy for Holding Runners

Thanks coach, well demonstrated. Your right that there is no reason a left handed pitcher can't learn to disrupt the running game.

Very nice stuff! That last pick move demonstrated sure looks marginal - doesn't he step toward home?

Good stuff. The kid pitching looks like a nice prospect

One other tip, what ever Andy Pettite does, do it. His secret seems to be a border-line balk move where he brings his foot down at a 45 degree angle between home and first. I could be wrong about that however.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
One other tip, what ever Andy Pettite does, do it.

You mean cheat!?!?!

Ha! Sorry, I love Andy but being a Red Sox fan, I just had to throw that out there!

Rob the good ones are all cheaters. It's just tough to call.

I don't resent the times I got picked, What I hated was the benches laughing as I dove back to the bag and the ball went to the plate

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
One other tip, what ever Andy Pettite does, do it.

You mean cheat!?!?!

Ha! Sorry, I love Andy but being a Red Sox fan, I just had to throw that out there!

It's only cheating if they call a balk - eh? Maybe some of our umpires can chime in on that.

I am an Indians fan so I have been on the losing end of many of his pick-off (cough, ahem, cough, balk) moves

I would call a balk on the move at 3:14

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
I would call a balk on the move at 3:14

Why?

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
I would call a balk on the move at 3:14

I thought the exact same thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
I would call a balk on the move at 3:14

I'll be honest, I really don't understand the balk rule all that well.

It would be interesting to hear your explanation Jimmy of why 3:14 is a balk (and any other umpire for that matter).

Interesting discussion with actual pictures to talk about

Oh, just a rule that was first introduced in 1889:

OBR 8.05 if there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when-

(c)The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base;


The rule has been interpreted consistently as meaning that the pitcher must step more towards the base than towards home, thus what has become known as the 45 degree line.

In the video at the 3:14 mark, I would adjudge the pitcher to have placed his foot beyond the 45 degree line and called a balk.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Oh, just a rule that was first introduced in 1889:

OBR 8.05 if there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when-

(c)The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base;


The rule has been interpreted consistently as meaning that the pitcher must step more towards the base than towards home, thus what has become known as the 45 degree line.

In the video at the 3:14 mark, I would adjudge the pitcher to have placed his foot beyond the 45 degree line and called a balk.

Thanks for the expalantion Jimmy. It's called welcome to the 19th century

Seriously, now that I understand it better, I agree with Jimmy that segment 3:14 appears to be a balk.

Two umpires can be watching the same move at the same time and one call it a balk and the other not.
That's why a good LHP pickoff move is cheating or a very fine line.

Jimmy03, that is the way I interpreted the video of this pitcher as well.

I will also say that like ClevelandDad, the Balk rule has been somewhat of a mystery to me so I would love to hear other opinions on this.

quote:

Originally posted by Danny Boydston:
Two umpires can be watching the same move at the same time and one call it a balk and the other not.
That's why a good LHP pickoff move is cheating or a very fine line.

That move is difficult, though not impossible to see in a two man crew. It is much easier to see in a three man crew like we use in college in which there is always an umpire at first when there is a runner on first.

quote:

Originally posted by Danny Boydston:
Two umpires can be watching the same move at the same time and one call it a balk and the other not.
That's why a good LHP pickoff move is cheating or a very fine line.

Back when I played college ball, an umpire told our coach: "Skip, I think your pitcher's cheating on that move to first."

My coach replied: "Of course he's cheating, he's a lefty."

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Good stuff. The kid pitching looks like a nice prospect

One other tip, what ever Andy Pettite does, do it. His secret seems to be a border-line balk move where he brings his foot down at a 45 degree angle between home and first. I could be wrong about that however.

I could be wrong, my understanding is that if it is the same mechanic seen every time, it's not ruled a balk?

I understand Jimmy,

I have one who has been frustrated at times making the same move getting the pickoff and then turn and have a balk called. What is consistent though is the opposing coaches always letting blue know it was a balk.

Balk- intent to deceive a baserunner.

.
Thanks all!

I'll add left handed pickoff moves...

to...

The merits of Weighted baseballs...

and..

Rotational/Linear hitting...


44
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quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Good stuff. The kid pitching looks like a nice prospect

One other tip, what ever Andy Pettite does, do it. His secret seems to be a border-line balk move where he brings his foot down at a 45 degree angle between home and first. I could be wrong about that however.

I could be wrong, my understanding is that if it is the same mechanic seen every time, it's not ruled a balk?

You are right in that you are wrong. A consistent balk move is still a balk move.

That old chestnut comes up periodically, "But Jimmy, we coach him to do that and he does it every time."

Really, Skip? I guess we'll be calling a lot of balks today.

quote:

Originally posted by cpfsam:
Balk- intent to deceive a baserunner.

No. It is legal to deceive a baserunner. It just has to be done legally.

There is a difference between deception and illegal deception.

And that interpretation is up to the umpires call.
What one considers deception another may not, umps.

MLB 8.05 a intent to deceive

But I agree that 3:14 would be called a balk in most circumstances. Although I believe in Dr. John Bogonzi's book "the act of pitching" he demonstrates a move very similar to this one at 3:14 and I have seen pitchers do it only to be called balk and to see the coach argue it.

quote:

Originally posted by cpfsam:
And that interpretation is up to the umpires call.
What one considers deception another may not, umps.

MLB 8.05 a intent to deceive

But I agree that 3:14 would be called a balk in most circumstances. Although I believe in Dr. John Bogonzi's book "the act of pitching" he demonstrates a move very similar to this one at 3:14 and I have seen pitchers do it only to be called balk and to see the coach argue it.

You are incorrectly reading the rule book. 8.05 state the general rule and then sections "a" through "m" provide which deceptions are balks.

OK Thanks, dont you think that umpires calls on balks fluctuate a bit though.

quote:

Originally posted by cpfsam:
OK Thanks, dont you think that umpires calls on balks fluctuate a bit though.

Like players and coaches, umpires who have similar training and similar abilities will perform similarly. And, generally speaking, the higher the level the more similarity in interpretations and calls.

NCAA has set a training standard. MiLB and MLB both have training standards.

High School, FED, unfortunately has decided against having a national standard of training.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by Danny Boydston:
Two umpires can be watching the same move at the same time and one call it a balk and the other not.
That's why a good LHP pickoff move is cheating or a very fine line.

That move is difficult, though not impossible to see in a two man crew. It is much easier to see in a three man crew like we use in college in which there is always an umpire at first when there is a runner on first.

I too, would call the balk on the 3:14 move....Jimmy is quite right in saying that it is more difficult (but not impossible) to see in a two man crew.....

In my 3 man games this is a balk easily seen.....

The key for the lafty pitcher is vary your angle towards first on different throws to first. The umpires are not always watching where your foot lands when you go to first. Give them some obvious "towards first" in the begnning of the game and then occasionally throw in one that's close when you need the pickoff.

Its always fn to watch the opposing coach come running out of the dugout!

I think the key is how quickly and loudly your 1st base coach squawks.

With the HS FU at postion B it's tough to see where the pitcher has stepped. I'll just ask the umpire to make the pitchers step to first. As Jimmy03 points out the rule says a pitcher must step directly to a base in order to pick. The guidance umpires receive is that they should be stepping more to 1st then the plate but the "45 degree line" does not exist in any rule book. The judgement should be; did he step towards 1st base or not?

Not to get hung up on this question, the post demonstrates a number of things pitchers should do to slow down the running game.

quote:

Originally posted by 3rdgenerationnation:
The guidance umpires receive is that they should be stepping more to 1st then the plate but the "45 degree line" does not exist in any rule book. The judgement should be; did he step towards 1st base or not?

NCAA rule book now references the so-called 45 degree line and, I believe so does the FED casebook. Nothing in OBR.

quote:

I believe so does the FED casebook

Page 53. 6.2.4 situation B

Thanks guys I stand corrected in regards to the rule books. However the point I was making is still valid. The pitcher must step toward the base he is throwing to. "Gain Ground" and the 45 degree issue are ways for an umpire to determine if he's stepped to first. As a coach or a fan I want to make it simple, make him step toward 1st.