A question about the pitcher position

Maybe at the Little League level, but then they don't make any improvements as they get older.

As a couple coaches said to us during our recruiting journies, if I kid can't throw strikes, spin a ball or hit at 16, they're not going to at 18, 20, or 22.

I was actually surprised by that, but they have more experience than me.

At some point, performance holds sway over promise.

The development of a reliable, repeatable delivery that allows a pitcher to consistently command a growing number of pitches as he matures is essential to success  over time. I've lost count of the number of promising college and minor league pitchers I've seen whose lack of command left them on the bench.

Consistently throwing strikes and getting batters out gets you innings. The inability to do so has you finding something else to do sooner than you'd hoped.

FWIW.......From my non-D1 recruited upper 80s 2019 RHP with a very successful summer playing in PG tournaments in ATL......he was most efficient/successful/winning when he threw 60%+ strikes in his outings.   

I think it is a huge part of the game in recruiting.  It amazes me how many qualifiers go into the pitching recruiting process.  Yet, the one I think is most important is the pitchability.  Ability to throw multiple pitches in multiple situations to get outs.  I have seen so many guys, even several in the pros now that have a crazy walk count but still stay.  One, when he was in high school, had 18 K's and 17 walks in the same playoff game.  

In the recruiting process, it is all about the velocity and not accuracy because every pitching coach thinks they can teach a kid to throw strikes.  The problem with most is they have to lose that velocity to get it across the plate.  PG and every other similar service rates kids on velocity not pitchability.  They will ALWAYS rate the kid higher who has the velocity and no control over the kid with lower velocity but crazy strikeout and eras.  it is just part of the game.  I saw this weekend a kid get honored for his great pitching because he had the velocity but had 5 walks in 1 1/3 innings and had to be pulled in a showcase because he could not throw strikes.   To throw strikes he had to take 5 mph off his fastball which made him average.  Yet, he was honored over the kid who had 5 k's in 2 innings. 

I do understand in most cases that the kid with 5 K's will probably be playing this game longer with more success if all  things continue equal.  But it is frustrating to watch.  I also know the one thing they say you can't teach is speed whether from the arm or from the legs. 

Pitching Fan,

How was he "honored?" A scout blog note on PG? A high grade at a showcase? So much of the PG eval is based upon projection and not what they are actually currently doing (besides velo). I personally know a kid, past 2 years graded a 10 on PG as a pitcher. Wasn't the #1 guy on our HS team because he lacked control, but he sat 90-91 and touched 95 when there were radar guns in crowd, all while lacking control. Wasn't drafted, went to summer collegiate league for performed poorly, lots of walks, didn't get many innings, and will now go to his school that he committed to in his Sophomore year of HS and they will have to work some magic. I guess if they can figure him out and get him throwing strikes they are going to have a winner.

That is what I'm talking about Garyme.  I know a couple of kids who are going to P5's this year that were given all kinds of honors or recognition by showcase organizations that could not get wins because they can't throw strikes.  They can throw it hard but can't pitch.  It is just frustrating some times that they don't recognize the kids that are successful in what I think are the right areas, K's, few walks, low era's, and such.  But I have to remind myself and those kids that it is the long-term results that matter and not the short-term.  The colleges and eventually the pros will reward the pitchers who can pitch.  Greg Maddux made a career of it and was rewarded well financially.

stayfocused posted:

FWIW.......From my non-D1 recruited upper 80s 2019 RHP with a very successful summer playing in PG tournaments in ATL......he was most efficient/successful/winning when he threw 60%+ strikes in his outings.   

Agreed.  Mine throws right at 70% strikes.  Is averaging 1 walk per every 7 innings pitched for summer and spring  for three years playing top level teams in summer.  He is averaging 1.4 strikeouts per inning and has .270 era for past three years of high school and summer.  But he will not, I repeat will not, even when I beg, try to throw hard to light up a radar gun in lieu of throwing a strike. He has hit 92, recorded by a college scout whose son was playing for the other team, in a high school game last year and twice the previous year by an opposing team, but highest recorded by PG or any other scouting group is 88 because they have all been in tournament games.  Never been to a true showcase except one last January where he only threw bullpens and was 88 when it was 33 degrees out.  All of the other times he has been clocked in a game setting where he will not sacrifice accuracy for speed. 

I am totally sold on the adrenaline rush of high school games.  I believe he has hit over 92 but no gun to prove.  Probably fastest was when his catcher missed a ball to tie the game in conference championship last spring.  Next pitch was a blazer.  Scouting friend who was there said "I just missed his fastest pitch.  He was pissed.  I should have known that one was coming hard."

But I will take accuracy versus velocity any day. 

A little more info from above....summer ERA from PG .80,  WHIP 1.02.  

Velo is king, plain and simple.  Some coach thinks "You can teach control, but you can't teach velo"...and poof, you are in!

Stayfocused: I'm holding less and less stock in PG data....I really do like PG and think the tourneys they put on are amazing, but you will always have 1-3 teams in your pool that aren't your teams caliber.  My son has an impressive ERA and WHIP from this summer too, from over 22 innings pitched, but I saw who he pitched against...it became less impressive. I hope your son pitched against better competition than mine.

CaCO3Girl posted:

Velo is king, plain and simple.  Some coach thinks "You can teach control, but you can't teach velo"...and poof, you are in!

That was my experience as well.  Kid with velo always had coaches tripping over each other to talk  to him while the kid who threw strikes, but no velo got essentially ignored.  It's like basketball, you cannot teach height - coaches love the player taller than the rest (shooting percentage of 10% but gets 90% rebounds).

Ever heard of this guy? 

First 3 years in the minors...286 IP with 246 BB. I don't know about the rest of you but I would have taken his FB velocity and lack of command at a young age...any day! 

There are a few on here who know my son's story along with his command issues. However, he is getting a shot with a P5 program. He may or may not get things turned around but I know this, he would not have this opportunity without the velocity and athleticism he had demonstrated in high school.

So to the original post/question, yes I have witnessed it first hand. I don't have a crystal ball so no idea if things will work out but I do know it has been done before by a hall of fame pitcher. 

Who knows...maybe my son just needs a pair of "Wild Thing" glasses. 

CaCO3Girl posted:

Velo is king, plain and simple.  Some coach thinks "You can teach control, but you can't teach velo"...and poof, you are in!

Stayfocused: I'm holding less and less stock in PG data....I really do like PG and think the tourneys they put on are amazing, but you will always have 1-3 teams in your pool that aren't your teams caliber.  My son has an impressive ERA and WHIP from this summer too, from over 22 innings pitched, but I saw who he pitched against...it became less impressive. I hope your son pitched against better competition than mine.

PG is unreliable.... there I said it. Whenever you drive an hour in Atlanta to get to a high school field and you find a bored high schooler has set up the gun and doing the scoring.... how accurate can it be. Our best pitcher was gunned on Gamecast at 88-89, the 3 scouts in the stands all had him at 91-92. 

Now maybe at Lakepoint they are better, but I wouldn’t know the scoreboard didn’t work on our field, and we played till the final 16.

LSU's pitcher Hilliard is a RHP who cruises 85-86 and is a starting pitcher in the SEC.   Yes, he's an exception to the rule.  But the reason for the exception is his spin rate and phenomenal curve ball.

If you don't have elite velocity you need to be elite in some other aspect of pitching, and find the programs that look beyond mere velocity.

https://www.theadvocate.com/ne...49-922e329091b8.html

Your son is missing opportunity.  Even if he lets one fly in warm up, he should.  Fair, not fair, if they don’t hit a certain velo, no one cares about the stats.

My son was recruited more for his mechanics than his velocity, though he projects to increase his velocity.

Growing up we stressed mechanics and the art of pitching (mostly because I'm a huge Glavine and Maddux fan), and it's served him well.  He received multiple D1 offers sitting 86, touching 88.

Coaches commented on his clean arm action and repeatable delivery.  Though, he's still growing and they also said he'll be 90+ come his freshman spring season.

Anyhow, there's hope for those not gifted with  a 90+ fastball at 16.

I don't disagree, but I think every school has a velocity they want to see and if you can throw it in warmups with no risk...why not.  Get it on the board.

baseballhs posted:

I don't disagree, but I think every school has a velocity they want to see and if you can throw it in warmups with no risk...why not.  Get it on the board.

No doubt.  Believe me, I wish my son threw 92 with the clean arm action and repeatable delivery 

I’m definitely not complaining about my son and his opportunities.  He is going SEC with a good opportunity. He knows to get drafted next June he has to get to 93 fairly consistently and is working to do what he can, without losing his control to gain velocity. But the great part is he is going to a school that has a PC that has developed some great LHP’s.  

On the level of competition issue mine faced some tough ones   He faced Evoshield Canes National and Team Elite Prime in a six day period at the beginning of the summer  learned that week what pitching in SEC would be like   

Nonamedad posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

Velo is king, plain and simple.  Some coach thinks "You can teach control, but you can't teach velo"...and poof, you are in!

Stayfocused: I'm holding less and less stock in PG data....I really do like PG and think the tourneys they put on are amazing, but you will always have 1-3 teams in your pool that aren't your teams caliber.  My son has an impressive ERA and WHIP from this summer too, from over 22 innings pitched, but I saw who he pitched against...it became less impressive. I hope your son pitched against better competition than mine.

PG is unreliable.... there I said it. Whenever you drive an hour in Atlanta to get to a high school field and you find a bored high schooler has set up the gun and doing the scoring.... how accurate can it be. Our best pitcher was gunned on Gamecast at 88-89, the 3 scouts in the stands all had him at 91-92. 

Now maybe at Lakepoint they are better, but I wouldn’t know the scoreboard didn’t work on our field, and we played till the final 16.

Caco....Bingo! Same with my son.

Nonamedad...just about every tournament for my son the proscouts have a different reading (more favorable).  But this does not surprise me as I have witnessed many venue radar guns pointing toward short stop, second base, the umpire's feet, etc.  

PitchingFan posted:

I’m definitely not complaining about my son and his opportunities.  He is going SEC with a good opportunity. He knows to get drafted next June he has to get to 93 fairly consistently and is working to do what he can, without losing his control to gain velocity. But the great part is he is going to a school that has a PC that has developed some great LHP’s.  

On the level of competition issue mine faced some tough ones   He faced Evoshield Canes National and Team Elite Prime in a six day period at the beginning of the summer  learned that week what pitching in SEC would be like   

 

I’ve found that it’s all about keeping them off balance.  My son was most effective against those teams when every other pitch had a 5mph speed difference.  They are looking for specific pitches, in specific places, he didn’t give them to them.  I have a nice video of a batter from team elite prime 16u literally falling trying to get to the ball, it was classic! Late movement was very effective as well.

SomeBaseballDad posted:

So, have any here during their time in baseball ran across a kid that people were in love with as a pitcher but who struggled with control. He'd be around the zone but not pinpoint. Every once in a while throw a gem but mostly runs scored due to walks, but still people/coaches would say "man that kid looks good on the mound" or talk about his presence.  No matter how well he did at the plate it was "that kid is going to make a hell of a pitcher one day". Isn't pitching pretty performance driven and a lack of results ought to set off red flags?

It has been said many times on this site that baseball is a "funnel of talent".  Somewhere in that funnel of talent the player is going to have to produce for the school that recruited him or the organization that drafted him.  Coaches and scouts take calculated risks among pools of talent...they aren't just looking at one player to solve their problems.   At some point the pitcher has to get people out and the hitter has to get on base or the organization will turn to somebody who can.  College and minor league baseball is filled with only a few that can stay healthy and get the job done consistently.  The bigger the tool set, the longer the leash, but keep in mind the leash will only be so long.  

I'd say I've been fairly involved in baseball since my oldest son was young.   I've met incredible people along the way, but it is mind numbing to me how many former college or minor league players I've met in the last 20 years.  Recently, I met a coworker who was an All-American that I had no idea he played minor league ball.   When I talk to them it is very clear how difficult it was to get there and they typically will say they just didn't have the talent to stay there.  For pitchers it is always control, health and velocity that is their undoing.

JMO  

TRUE STORY:

During our Area Code games, Tommy Lasorda introduce Orel Hershiser. His "nick name" was "bulldog".

Earl's pitching strategy "change speeds and change location".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orel_Hershiser

Bob

In terms of the original post, anyone that has been around baseball has seen that guy a hundred times. In fact, I was that guy...a long time ago.   A hard throwing pitcher is like a hitter that hits tape measure home runs occasionally.  They capture everyone's imagination and sometimes basic elements (like command) get lost in the hype. Pitching is both an art & a science.  The science part has to do with training your body to properly throw a baseball utilizing sound mechanics that can be repeated.  To be a successful pitcher a kid must throw the ball well to begin with.  This is the first place that many kids fail - they never learn how to properly throw the ball, yet they keep playing.  You can see evidence of this on any HS baseball field in America.  The art of pitching has to do with getting hitters out. It doesn't matter how - an out is an out. Hitting is all about timing, therefore pitching is all about upsetting a hitters timing. Changing speeds effectively is the best way to do this IMO.  If a pitchers FB sits at 84 mph then his CU needs to be 74 mph or less.  A 10 mph differential will upset a hitters timing. The breaking ball velo should be somewhere in between the FB and the CU.  One of the most common mistakes I see in HS and college pitchers is that they throw their CU too hard.  A change up that is 5 mph less than the FB is batting practice. To make a point I'm going to state the obvious. The love affair with a pitchers velo has to do with the reaction time of a hitter. The harder a pitcher throws the less reaction time a hitter has. In theory, a hard throwing pitcher can get away with mistakes that a lesser thrower cant.  I think everybody understands that logic.  However any pitcher that learns how to throw first pitch strikes, change speeds, throw off speed in fastball counts, and not fall into patterns is going to be successful at the HS level. But in general these kids are successful because they have learned the art of pitching - not because they have superior command.  This means that their HS success is a long shot to translate to the college level.  Superior command at the HS level is very rare - in fact I hardly ever see it. So, I think a lot of people see a kid that isn't a hard thrower that has success in HS  and they credit him with having superior command when in reality he doesn't. He just knows how to pitch. College coaches can see the difference.  Most parents cant. That's why young hard throwing pitchers always get lots of attention and preferential treatment.  Its all about potential.  In the minds of most coaches the softer thrower has peaked and the hard thrower hasn't.  Good coaches know that if the hard thrower can be taught how to pitch that he has a chance to be special. Once a kid gets to college tho he better be a quick study. College coaches are paid to win games and they aren't gonna keep running a kid out to the mound that cant throw strikes and get hitters out.  It has been said many times on this board that in the world of competitive college baseball velocity & command are not mutually exclusive. Good pitchers have both, and this is true in D1, D2, D3, JUCU, & NAIA.

Consultant posted:

TRUE STORY:

During our Area Code games, Tommy Lasorda introduce Earl Hershiser. His "nick name" was "bulldog".

Earl's pitching strategy "change speeds and change location".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orel_Hershiser

Bob

 

Orel Hershiser

russinfortworth posted:

Consultant posted:

TRUE STORY:

During our Area Code games, Tommy Lasorda introduce Earl Hershiser. His "nick name" was "bulldog".

Earl's pitching strategy "change speeds and change location".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orel_Hershiser

Bob

 

Orel Hershiser

Orel was much more accomplished than his lesser known brother (Anel), who was filthy but didn't have enough control.  True story.

Well, maybe not.......

adbono posted:

russinfortworth posted:

Consultant posted:

TRUE STORY:

During our Area Code games, Tommy Lasorda introduce Earl Hershiser. His "nick name" was "bulldog".

Earl's pitching strategy "change speeds and change location".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orel_Hershiser

Bob

 

Orel Hershiser

Orel was much more accomplished than his lesser known brother (Anel), who was filthy but didn't have enough control.  True story.

Well, maybe not.......

LMAO 

"So, have any here during their time in baseball ran across a kid that people were in love with as a pitcher but who struggled with control. He'd be around the zone but not pinpoint. Every once in a while throw a gem but mostly runs scored due to walks, but still people/coaches would say "man that kid looks good on the mound" or talk about his presence." 

Take your pick:

A. All the time

B. Every Year

C. In  EVERY league/level I umpire

D. There is at least one on almost every roster. ( especially travel ball and showcase teams)

Absolutely, our Summer Northern California team included a young 16 year old, name John, who had no control on his 92 mph fast ball. I tried to have John focus on the catcher mitt "web" and to "stay loose" mentally. Off the field he had no problem.

Years later, John was the MVP for the NY Yankees in the World Series. He played in our Goodwill Series in Japan against the National HS team.

Bob

2018 threw 37 collective innings at PG event last year.... he did not walk a batter , sitting 92-94 bumping 95   threw a perfect game  at Jupiter last year.  You have to have it all, velo, command , repeatability, clean arm,  balance,  ..... when you hear coaches talk about projection in a player that has velo and cannot command it, they are "dreaming" on that player... Maybe it's the second tier at P5 that thinks maybe I can get him cheap, and if I cannot fix it I don't have any money in him.  Or maybe he can learn 2 pitches and be a set-up or closer.  Of even it's a mid major that cannot get the top guys.  MOST of the time the guy who can spin it, and locate it are going to start. 

BACDORSLIDER wrote "You have to have it all, velo, command, repeatability, clean arm, balance....."

To pitch in a top 30 D1 program that is 100% correct, and what so many don't seem to understand. 

Thanks everyone for replying. Lost track of this thread.

So yeah, that's been my kid. Since about 13U its been "man that kid looks good on the mound". Even though success has been spotty. I guess it's because he can spin it so well. He throws four pitches for strikes and the three offspeed more often for such than his FB. Throws them from same arm slot/motion as FB. Senior year of HS one did feel bad for opposing batters. 73 K's in 30 something innings. Very much a swing and miss pitcher. That said we did talk about how college would be a big step because of the tighten strike zone.  Thing is that really didn't get him, PC did. He has a "way" and the kid didn't fit it. Thank god he can hit.

I would say think of it like a high school football receiver. Most 6a schools are loaded (or could be loaded) with slow receivers with good to great hands. The problem is, these receivers will almost never get open against the super-quick defensive backs. So coaches almost always go with the speedy receiver even if his hands are terrible. The reason is that he has to be able to get open first, and if he can't get open it really doesn't matter how great his hands are.

As development programs continue to improve we might expect to see a slight shift in the number of lower velo (mid-upper 80's) kids signing with bigger schools. But that'll be based on the individual. Allow me to explain.

Kid A: sits mid to upper 80's but has never done a serious arm program before. Good command. Good offspeed. 
Kid B: sits low 90's, has been doing DriveLine or VELOcity in the offseason. No command. Good offspeed. 

Kid A might look more appealing to a big program that has a good understanding of how to put the kid through a development program to increase velo. Where it used to be the thought that "we can teach command", that is shifting to "we can teach velocity." 

Just my 2 cents. 

Learner posted:

As development programs continue to improve we might expect to see a slight shift in the number of lower velo (mid-upper 80's) kids signing with bigger schools. But that'll be based on the individual. Allow me to explain.

Kid A: sits mid to upper 80's but has never done a serious arm program before. Good command. Good offspeed. 
Kid B: sits low 90's, has been doing DriveLine or VELOcity in the offseason. No command. Good offspeed. 

Kid A might look more appealing to a big program that has a good understanding of how to put the kid through a development program to increase velo. Where it used to be the thought that "we can teach command", that is shifting to "we can teach velocity." 

Just my 2 cents. 

That is wishful thinking IMO.  My suspicion is that you are grossly overestimating the amount of "development instruction" that a pitcher will receive at most college programs.  While there is definitely more across the board focus on strength training, conditioning, & nutrition there have not been the same widespread improvements in on the field instruction.  That boils down to hoping you can find one of the programs that has an established and knowledgeable pitching coach (that wont be gone in 2 years). Most big time programs recruit pitchers that can help them win now - they aren't planning on spending 2 years to develop anybody.  If a kid doesn't produce its next man up - and the kid isn't sent to the bullpen for a bunch of nurturing instruction (with rare exceptions). 

Much more likely to happen in the pro ranks than in college, IMO:

https://twitter.com/JasonOchar.../1036320103342592001

"And I know of pro orgs who’ve talked to us about doing the same thing. Signing a group of 88mph d1 Sunday starters or D2 NAIA D3 guys that walk nobody and throw 3 pitches for strikes, and putting them immediately on a weighted ball program and seeing who can get to 92-93"

2019Dad posted:

Much more likely to happen in the pro ranks than in college, IMO:

https://twitter.com/JasonOchar.../1036320103342592001

"And I know of pro orgs who’ve talked to us about doing the same thing. Signing a group of 88mph d1 Sunday starters or D2 NAIA D3 guys that walk nobody and throw 3 pitches for strikes, and putting them immediately on a weighted ball program and seeing who can get to 92-93"

I agree

Learner posted:

As development programs continue to improve we might expect to see a slight shift in the number of lower velo (mid-upper 80's) kids signing with bigger schools. But that'll be based on the individual. Allow me to explain.

Kid A: sits mid to upper 80's but has never done a serious arm program before. Good command. Good offspeed. 
Kid B: sits low 90's, has been doing DriveLine or VELOcity in the offseason. No command. Good offspeed. 

Kid A might look more appealing to a big program that has a good understanding of how to put the kid through a development program to increase velo. Where it used to be the thought that "we can teach command", that is shifting to "we can teach velocity." 

Just my 2 cents. 

A MLB franchise will spend a few years developing a player’s potential. A college program will just bring in up to ten new pitchers next year. 

In college ball a player has to decide the first year what is his shot of getting on the field by the second year. If it doesn’t look good they transfer.  Each year a college program brings in about fifteen new recruits. 

So no one thinks there is more of an effort starting to go into player development at the college level? Arm programs, more intense strength and conditioning programs, etc.. 

Learner posted:

So no one thinks there is more of an effort starting to go into player development at the college level? Arm programs, more intense strength and conditioning programs, etc.. 

 

I don't think that is what we are trying to say. There is definitely more effort going into preparing players but it still comes down to performance. Coaches are given little time to win and/or show improvement from year to year. Most can't afford to keep players on roster who take more then a year to develop.