Abusing HS Pitchers

Here in VA that would never happen.  While VHSL doesn't have pitch count limits, it does have inning limits.  4 or more innings pitched requires 3 days rest at a minimum.  I believe the max is 14 innings in a week.

 

That coach is out of his mind.  Where are the parents?  I know I would be screaming (and my son doesn't pitch).

1977 in NC

A player pitched every inning of every game for his HS team. He went 23-1 losing in the State Championship Final. He pitched 165 innings. He threw 12 shut outs. And he had 228 K's. This player would later play D1 football.

 

And you thought your scenario was bad.

I think Arizona goes by this: every 12 innings rest for 36 hours. You can pitch 2 six inning games twice a week for your season or until your arm falls off.  Looks like a rule change is in order.

A team here in Idaho just had to forfeit their District's Championship, because they overused a pitcher.  This ended up costing them a trip to the 5A State Championships.  The pitcher was used for one inning, and then the next day pitched 7 complete.  The rule only allows 7 total in 2 consecutive days.

Let's say, hypothetically, the dad of your best pitcher (a senior) emails you prior to the season and states, "My son has no further plans in the game.  He loves to pitch and would love to help his team win as many games as they can.  As far as he and I are concerned, feel free to throw him every single inning that the rules allow you to throw him. We have good health insurance!"

 

A kid pitched 154 in a game last year, signed with a great D1 school. Team went to States, likely will this year too. Now a junior.

Big hubbub over overusing a kid with a bright future

Still wouldn't do it.  I would commend the kid for being such a team player but then sit down with him to explain the realities of the world.  First if an injury were to occur it could affect him the rest of his life.  Does he want 45 year old "Johnny" to really let 18 year old "Johnny" make a decision that will affect him.  Most kids don't ever get this but the parents do.

 

Then I would explain to both of them that he isn't the whole pitching staff.  By only using him it would set back the development of everyone else and for rest of the season and in the future.

       
       
I won't dismiss this out of hand.  Obviously doesn't apply to kid in OP scenario but...   if the kid were in a weak level of competition and throwing 80 but was best in area...  and he had zero college potential...  and he had no other sporting interests...  I have to confess I just might.  But I would have to be absolutely convinced there were no other sports other than recreational in his future.

There are lots of well intentioned HS coaches and then there are plenty who can't seem to help themselves.  For me this ultimately lies on the parents and the player to be concerned about one's future.

 

Here district games are on Tuesday/Friday night.  I know of 2017 that is ranked in the top of his class nationally and was committed to a perennial top 25 program before opening back up his recruitment who started 6 consecutive district games including one outing where he went 168.  Last start and he heard a pop and is now scheduled for TJ this week.  Knowing his father I don't think he could help his son much.  Likes the attention too much to rein it in.  

 

Another case of D1 commit power pitcher going 148 pitches to get his team into the private state semis.  His coaches both are former college pitchers and one who pitched in the majors and they still let it happen.  

 

Don't really have an opinion on the kids who are hanging it up after HS but in the cases like above all parties from the kid, coach, and parent are clearly to blame for the abuse. Playing with fire for sure. 

I have a good one to add to this discussion.  In our first round of state playoffs, we won in 3 games to advance.  The team we played threw a kid all 8 innings of game 2.  He threw 168 pitches.  This was game 2 of a doubleheader in which he caught the entire first game.  We come back next day to play the deciding game.  We tie the game in the top of the 5th.  Coach makes a pitching change.  Guess who?  You got it.  The same kid that had started at catcher in game 3 comes back in to pitch.  I couldn't believe what I was seeing.  Kid threw 34 pitches over 2.1 innings and took the loss.  This team used a total of 3 pitchers over 3 games in 2 days.  I have never personally witnessed stupidity to this level in person.  I do not know the kid but I hope it doesn't ruin his career.  My son said after the second game, "Dad, there is no way that kid will be able to catch tomorrow.  His arm will fall off."  Not only did he catch but pitched as well.  Lunacy!!

Not in defense of any of these coaches but the alure of putting a banner up on the fence and in the gym sometimes can be overwhelming for all of those involved. 

Clearly, despite the sometimes ineffectiveness of rules of pitch counts and innings pitched, there still remains a huge need to protect HS pitchers from a (thankfully few) idiotic, caution-to-the-wind HS coaches.

Batty, I don't particularly love my son's HS coach but at the end of the day my son is the gatekeeper of his future.  Putting that trust in others is foolhardy IMO.  

 

As soon as my son decided to head down the road of pitching in college he promptly told his travel coaches that they needed to prepare for him not to catch that fall and any further after that.  After he committed he made it clear to his HS coach that he would be unable to catch and play third base.

 

This year our first district game got moved from Tuesday to Monday due to incoming weather and he had just pitched a complete game on Thursday.  Early in the year and didn't want to push it so told the coach he was only about 80% and couldn't go one day early and he started the second district game.  

 

Maybe not a very popular stance for some of the folks on this board but in both cases both teams have managed just fine without him behind the plate or putting unnecessary wear and tear on his arm.  His HS teammates just voted him team MVP so him being on the mound and healthy is where he can help the team win the most and they recognize that.  

Agreed. But I'm not advocating for pitch count/inning rules to be the sole, or even primary, means of protecting the arms of pitchers. But I do know that teenaged boys are highly likely to be gung-ho and make ill-advised testosterone-driven decisions to stay in the game. Parents play a huge role in protecting their kids' health.

If your son was at our HS and had that conversation, he would not have to worry about overuse of his arm.  

 

I'm glad you are able to be that open and have it work out for you. 

Many parents that I know are not aware of the dangers of pitchers throwing too much.  I applaud Colorado for implementing pitch count rules for high school

If you remember the LLWS about twelve years ago there was a kid from Saugus MA named Scuzzerelli. He was smallish but dominated with a lot if curves. When his father was asked about it he said after the LLWS was over the kid's year round focus would be hockey, so pitch your heart out. The kid went on to play D1 hockey.

I have always been supportive of protecting young arms, i had a 12 yr old travel father upset with me becuase i didn't pitch his son, far and away our best pitcher, enough over the 11 and 12u seasons...that being said if a HS kid is at the end of the baseball road for whatever reason and he is good enough that he is the best option for the team i have no issues with pushing some kind of crazy number for a league, district or state title.

 

I am somewhat conflicted even typing that but the I think it is for the kid, his parents and the coach to talk about and decide. if the kid is planning on continuing in the future I believe they both need to respect that and not beat the kid...but if a kid is going to be a cornerback next season, is joining the service, going to an engineering school or some school where he has no interest or shot to play baseball - what the heck, it is the end of the line, what are you saving for? there is no more tomorrow...have at it if you are the best option.

 

just my opinion.

Just wanted to add that I think the conversation on the kids future or lack there of should be had with both the kid, parents and coach well before the time of the game or the play-off run in question. you have that talk in March or whatever, maybe you both even follow up over the course of the season to make sure all are still on the same page. I also think this is kind of a one off situation and certainly not the norm.

This thread reminds me of a similar incident when my son's team went to Cooperstown in 2005.  There was a team from the NW (Washington or Oregon) that had several members from the Dominican Republic.  Their age was questionable - suppose to be 12U, but they certainly looked older (15-16 - some had facial hair).

 

Anyway, their top pitcher threw 80 mph.  There were no pitch limits at Cooperstown.  That coach pitched their #1 for 4 straight games - in two days.  By then he was done.  After that he only DH'd.  No pitching or fielding.  They did make it to the championship game, but were defeated by a team from Florida.

 

 

Two thoughts.

 

1) Flip that argument around and change the context:

Email the principal and tell them we are going to give him the keys to the car and a bottle of booze for the prom.  After all it is the last big party of HS might as well make it a good one.  We have good car Insurance and health insurance too!

 

I am sorry but we are the adults and we cannot abdicate stupidity to teenagers. IMO a coach worth his salt deletes such a thing. 

 

2) I know these titles seem sooo important at the moment but one must consider the true value of a HS State Championship is virtually...zero.  Unless the local tycoon is going to give you lifetime employment it does not change any facet of your future with the possible exception of having something to brag about or talk about at the bar. 

 

If you show up at a place where grown ups are gathered in 2035 as a 40 year old and get introduced as Tommy Ballplayer and he was the winning pitcher back in the AAAAA HS State Championship baseball game in 2015....then you do not have much going on in your life. 

Something that gets lost is HOW overuse affects arm health. It isn't pitching 150+ pitches in a game that does damage. It's a consistent pattern of overuse. If you have a kid that has been used properly (not overused) most of his high school career and, down the stretch at playoff time, you let him rack up some huge pitch counts, you probably aren't doing him any real harm to let him go 150+ pitches a couple of times, especially if he has no future plans in baseball. However, that's not usually the case. If you need a kid to do that, you've probably been doing it for quite a while. Long-term, though, the memories last a long time.

luv baseball--I have to disagree with you on both of your arguments. The first one is completely illogical; you can't just "flip the argument and change the context" for the sake of argument. Your hypo has nothing to do with the order of risk under discussion (overusing a teen pitcher) and just reduces the facts to absurdity for argument's sake.

 

And the second argument, well the "true value"of this type of experience is entirely subjective and can't be assessed like economic value. If you look down on people who define their glory differently than you, that really says more about you than them, doesn't it?  And not everyone defines themselves by their chosen source of glory, but everyone who has won a state championship probably remembers the experience warmly.

Well, that analogy doesn't quite fit. Last I checked, a torn UCL (the worst-case scenario of overpitching) won't kill you and, again last I checked, Tommy John surgery can't resurrect the dead (the worst case scenario of drunk driving).

I would like to think this can be cured through education.  However, sometimes there are people who might know better allowing the win or wins to get in the way.

 

Everyone wants to win, but to me there are things much more important than winning a baseball game.  The average fan may not notice, but what good is winning if you need to abuse pitchers and limit their future potential.

 

There are several schools of thought and that should be mentioned.  There are those out there that believe we baby pitchers too much these days.  I believe the legendary Nolan Ryan has mentioned this.  So we don't want to totally disregard what others believe. 

 

In my mind I would always rather play it safe rather than be sorry. There is something real good about knowing you did not do anything abusive to blow an arm.

The analogy is to get to a different point:  Adults should not let kids do stupid things if they can stop them. Teach them grown up risk management in all aspects of their lives.  Frankly it should be a mandatory subject along with Personal Finance to get a HS diploma IMO.

 

The real question in this post is this:  What will you risk giving up a chuck of your body for? 

 

A HS Baseball State Championship is a pretty low price to sell some level of use of a limb which also happens to be your dominant arm. 

 

 

luv, do you think maybe - just maybe - permanent loss of the use of an arm in the situations described just might be a tad bit of an exaggeration?

Maybe we should teach the kids that they don't have to strike everyone out, deception & location are better, throw less pitches, and rely on defense & good framing by the Catchers!

It is about Risk management and good decision making.

 

I have limited use of my right arm from throwing a baseball/softball and I will live about 50 years that way if I have a normal lifespan.  It is not a joke.  I have regular neck, shoulder and back pain and it will never go away until I stop breathing or they tear my shoulder out and give me a new one.

 

Would anyone actually tell a kid to unnecessarily risk an injury in a sports activity on purpose?  If so they should get their head gear flushed.

 

Being over the top was to support the point not be the point. Making bad decisions is a pattern of behavior that leads to other bad decisions.  Nothing happens in a vacuum everything builds on what came before it.  

 

 

 

I can tell you that my son, a 2016 Catcher, used to pitch up until a year ago.  Last pitching outing was when he was 15 playing on an 18u team in a wood bat tournament.  73 pitch complete 7 inning game, 26 batters, 1 hit, 1 error, 1 FC, no walks for his HS pitching coach who coached the travel team. Won that game 1-0.  Pitched 3 games for this coach throughout the season when they were short on pitchers, 17 innings total, 3 wins no losses, no walks, maybe 4-5 k's tops.  Coach praised him for his control, deception, and his ability to locate at the knees.  HS coach liked him catching better.  Loves to pitch, now Catching, 2b, and DH for HS.  He threw more as a catcher than he ever did as a pitcher.