Academic support for athletes fair?

Coach, I don't have the articles on hand, but it has been shown that admissions applications do INCREASE by as much as 15-20% I believe if a school's team makes it to the National Championship in football or the Final Four in Men's Basketball.

quote:

All this money is being spent on the minority instead of the majority.

That is the society we live in. Remember, there are all kinds of scholarships available for the minority students because they "do not have the opportunities that the white male has."

I will agree with you that I think some of it has gotten out of control. And I will agree that I did not choose the school I chose because their athletics were good.. they are downright AWFUL in most sports! BUT their Athletic Training Education Program is top-notch, it's close to home (but still far enough away), and it's reasonably priced.

Bulldog I don't doubt that one bit that enrollment increases because of a championship but you are talking about one school out of how many? I would also like to see how many of those who picked a championship school based on that only actually graduated. I would look it up but I am visiting my mom and she has dial up. If I did the research it would probably take me 4 days.

I'm not saying that people don't choose a school based on athletics because I am sure there are. I'm just saying overall it is not the case.

Coach,
I respect your opinions but you may see things differently if you had a bb player who played an average 70 games per season compacted into a few short months. You might understand that in order to handle all that is placed on one's plate many need assistance and glad my son had the opportunity and took advantage of what he was offered. I don't think on son's bb team there are those who did not graduate yet, except for some of the early draft picks who are not able to as yet, even before the NCAA began getting tougher on graduation rates.

As far as assistance for non athletes, my son attended study groups for classes that were predominately not filled with athletes. All students are assigned academic advisors, regardless of being an athlete or not and have opportunities to seek out their assistance at any time. Do they all take advantage of that opportunity?

Not sure why bb parents think that their players deserve full scholarships, most bb programs (even at the more successful ones) provide little revenue to their schools, the successful basketball and football programs provide for all. I was very happy that the full scholarships given to those players provided for winning programs that in turn supported other athletic programs. Successful programs also earn benefactor and alumni support from private donations that enhance programs and provide scholarships.

There is definetly more academic money available than athletic money. Make sure your player gets it done in the classroom as well as on the field and he will get plenty of money that will reduce your costs. Control what you can and not worry about what you can't.

BTW, take a look at some of the payouts for bowl games.
Many of these schools programs will have some nice change to enhance all facilities because their full football scholarship players got the job done.

Many of those players chose to play where they did because of the support offered.

If the schools want to put it into athletic academic buildings, new baseball stadiums, new tennis courts, new sokker fields, better athletic facilities used for all students,library additions, I say go for it, everyone benefits when one program wins.

Not sure if many are aware that most schools have recreational facilities for use for everyone. One at son's school (Fike) includes an indoor suspension running track, rock wall for climbing, beautiful swimming pool, latest workout equipment used by all. These facilites are seperate from the athletic center. This facility also most liekly helps keeps classrooms filled.

A large amout of college funding comes from sports alum. A friend attended boston U on a full ride as a rowing coxy. An Alum put up a multi million dollar building for the rowing as long as they put his name on it. Also talked to a friemd of my son who is on a full ride at Cal Berkley a couple days ago. He said he couldn't believe the money put into the program from alum
Sports have far reaching benefits to colleges.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
I think you guys are selling the average student short when you say they go because of the successful athletic teams.

Coach, I agree with that to a point. While the success of athletic teams is not a reason for going to a school, the "exploitation" of college athletics to the student body is a big part of the college "social life", and success of those teams opens that door. Look at the nicknames of the student bodies that goes to a College game and how the likes of Dick Vitale and Lou Corso throw those nicknames around. That is a big stage example, but it does follow down to every level of college sports and traditional losing teams will find few students that admit to being a "fan". When all is said and done and a prospective student goes for a campus visit they usually take in a football or basketball game in order to sell the school social life and a winning team sends a message home with that HS student.

quote:

When all is said and done and a prospective student goes for a campus visit they usually take in a football or basketball game in order to sell the school social life and a winning team sends a message home with that HS student.

rz1, I was going to say basically the same thing. Although my son was a baseball player, the coaching staff knew a packed house of 90,000 people at a home football game sends a very strong message so that's where they took him -- they even took me and his mother too. I was so excited even I wanted to go to attend college there.
Fungo

Most schools could provide a considerable amount of tutorial support to the average student by allocating a small % of there endowment. If they truly wanted parity in academic assistance with athletes. Any kid who graduates with any type of a 4 year degree no matter how much extra support he recieved is a plus.

College sports can be a cash cow for university's. Through donations from Alumni, T.V contracts and in many instances revenue shared from bowl games within the conference,whether or not you competed in a bowl game.

Yes. There are "the have and have nots". But I have to believe, in addition to the social life, the reason for maintaining a losing expensive program. Is the hope that it will eventually payoff or already has.

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me - than a frontal lobotomony

My question is why . Why hold their hands through college ? Let them figure it out. They can ask the prof on things they don't understand.
The only reason athletes get help is to keep them eligible so the team doesn't collapse. I want my son or daughters to use their resources to succeed in anything they do. That is why they go to college to learm how to think, not to parrot things they hear and read.

quote:

I was so excited even I wanted to go to attend college there.
Fungo

Me, too, not Auburn, but you get the idea.

That's why most OV's come before the early signing period in the fall. For those that have not made up their minds, football weekends are very powerful tools in recruiting.

Athletics not important, not for UM coach Randy Shannon.

While watching the game tonight, it was announced he banned 5 players including QB from the bowl game. His rule, you are not allowed to miss more than 4 classes, and that player was only late 15 minutes to one class.

TPM I do have an idea of what is on a baseball players plate in college because I went through it for two years with no help. I didn't play DI baseball but I still had to work out, condition, go to class, play games and keep up with the things that I missed while away.

There were many times our bus would pull out at 6 am for an 6 - 7 hour trip to a game then turn around and get home around 1 am and still have to be in class the next morning. Many days for a 1 pm start time we had to get to the field at 7 am to try and get it ready to play. Guys would leave to attend class while covered in mud and dirt and then once class was over go back out to the field to continue work or get ready for the game. We also had to make sure our uniforms were clean because we did our own laundry. We did all this while making time to study and keep our grades up.

My coaches could care less about our grades because he always told us if we didn't make it he would get rid of us and find players who could. So we had to do everything ourselves with no help from anyone.

I realize I'm not going to change anyone's minds because the majority of people who have posted on this are parents who have sons benefitting from this system. I don't blame you and I'm not saying do away with it. I think it's great the help they are giving to these athletes.

I'm just saying that a school should not leave out the group who pay the bills - the regular students. Allow regular students the opportunity to benefit from this help.

Let me explain it like this - Title IX is a great idea that is somewhat of a failure. Title XI was meant to bring female sports up to the point of male sports but once they found out how difficult it was the powers that be decided instead of bringing female sports up they just brought male sports down. I'm not saying eliminate the help the athletes are getting but bring up the regular students up to the help the athletes are getting.

In todays edition of USA Today.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2008-12-30-athletes-SATs_N.htm
Read some of the comments!

rWow just read the article and the comments. I think it is a shame when some of these athletes get pushed through class and never complete a degree. I think the institution is doing them a big disservice.( is that spelled correctly? LOL).I have seen it at the JC level players who dont take care of business, they have no where to go. Some kids just arent good students, maybe they lack the abilites, I have no problem helping out a great athlete that maybe struggles, but I want him to work hard and get his degree so he can support himself and his family someday.I guess that many of them think they are playing pro ball someday.They need to be taught the percent rates of that ever happening.

fanofgame,

The first person that comes to mind is Dexter Manley.
Old article but perfect example:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_n12_v44/ai_8010811

That article was very sad. I wonder how many get through and never tell. maybe not as bad as him but just slipping through the cracks, is four years of being on an athletic field more important to colleges than these kids lives after.

Thankfully, the NCAA now prevents athletes scoring a 6 on their ACT from playing college sports. While many current athletes' SAT and ACT scores may not be stellar, they most likely are adequate to get the job done -- if the athletes apply themselves and if they get academic assistance.

Pretty obvious the entire system is screwed up.

There was a time when I didn't think it "fair" to have extra help for athletes. I don't feel that way anymore, and that feeling didn't come from having a student-athlete son...but from my mother some 20 or so years ago.

For a number of years, she tutored student athletes at a midwestern basketball powerhouse. Most of the kids she got were from inner cities...and most really hadn't gotten much of a chance to have a decent education before arriving in college.

Let me tell you (briefly hopefully) the story of one "Joe," the basketball player.

"Joe" arrived on campus, barely admitted, barely a "qualifier"...surely because he was a star basketball player. He was from a big inner city HS. Joe had barely C's in HS. By nearly any standard that WE would likely set HERE or for our own children, Joe shouldn't have been in college. But thats another argument and the fact is, there were/are plenty of Joe's in college playing sports.

Joe was quickly referred to my mother for academic support because he had some reading difficulties. In fact, after she tested him, she found that Joe read at about a 5th grade level. She quickly called the basketball office and advised them to redshirt Joe, as this was going to take some work and some time to get him to some level of proficiency, if ever at all. "No, we need him THIS year," was the answer.

So more testing. It turned out Joe had some learning disabilities including dyslexia. It also turned out that his elementary/Jr.HS/HS system had "passed" Joe through, in part because he was a great athlete, but also because thats what many schools just do...pass the problem on to the next teacher.

In any case, there was some good news. There were teaching methods, in which my mother was expert, that could help to overcome Joe's learning differences. But it would take very hard work and so she told Joe, if he wanted to be successful as a college student, they had a lot to do. "We must meet, every day at 7:00 am in my office to begin to get you on track," was what she told him.

Now any parent of a college (past or present) athlete on this site knows, there aren't a lot of extra hours in the day. So this was a TALL order. But Joe stood up to it!

He was there every morning...and if she was 5 minutes late it was my mother who got the lecture from Joe! He was eager and motivated and actually pretty darn smart once the problems were identified.

Joe quickly ascended to a college reading level and ultimately went on to play 4 years of high D1 college basketball...and graduate. And while he didn't turn out to be an NBA player, last I heard Joe was a social worker back in his old inner city, helping kids from his home neighborhood...contributing to society in a positive way.

The largest newspaper in that big city did an article about Joe...and my mother too. It ended up being good for everyone including you and me in at least a small way. And I will tell you from my family's (and particularly my mother's) experience...there were a lot more "Joe's." Not all as ultimately successful as Joe, but enough were successful to make it worthwhile in her (and my) opinion.

So yes, I think its not only "fair," but required if a school and the NCAA is going to make $$ off these kids, that they help them academically however they can (legally of course). It also makes good sense IMO in the grander scheme of things...for the better good.

JMHO, nothing more.

(See ya for lunch TPM! )

great story justbaseball, and one that gives much merit to the argument

Good story JB!

First , if an athlete comes to college not prepared as he should, that means that the system before college might have failed him/her. It may be where they grew up, it may be there were no parents to help with homework and teach responsibility, it may be they had a learning disability. No argument from me, totally the responsibility of the school to make sure that player stays eligible and graduates.
My son has not graduated, but his school has told him he can receive assistance if he returns within 5 years of leaving. Does that sound like schools don't care?
We often talk about the big bad NCAA, the NCAA has changed rules so that student athletes DO stay eligible, do graduate. Baseball has taken a big hit over it.
Some schools cheat trying to keep their athletes eligible, the NCAA should impose the highest penalties on them, JMO.

TPM

Please define "some schools cheat" !!!!

I think it is incorrect to equate football/basketball players with baseball players and what goes on at colleges

If you look at the schedule of most of the teams from the north they start playing on Feb. 20th. For obvious reasons they all start in Florida, NC or other warm weather sites. They are away for at least 2-3 weeks to start the season.

How in the world would these players keep up with classes. There has to be some tutoring or special classes and accommodations made for this. It would seem to be that academic support for athletes is a necessity not a luxury.

Great story JB. To add onto that a little, the International Dyslexia Association estimates that up to 15-20% of the gen pop have symptoms of dyslexia. To people who believe they are unaffected by dyslexia that may not matter much, but that's a huge number! It really affects us all. For many it remains a hidden disability, especially for those who aren't identified, or don't seek help on their own because of the stigma attached. They don't want to be labeled stupid or illiterate, and they aren't! The reality is, many dyslexics don't pursue secondary ed because of the extraordinary efforts needed to get through school. It stands to reason that there is a much higher percentage of dyslexic athletes in college than in the general student body. College athletes with dyslexia are in a different boat because while they have another reason to attend college, a learning disability on top of full-time participation in intercollegiate sports is a real burden. Success stories like the one JB cites are reason enough for me to justify offering extra support for SAs. It's never too late to get help in overcoming a learning disability.
IDA fact sheets

Having an older in college son (not a baseball player) with dyslexia I can attest to the fact that even with recognition at an early age it's an uphill battle for the student. We have been lucky that he's such a great kid but it has been a real challenge.

Some teachers in high school were great with accomodating his needs. Some were so uneducated about learning disabilities that I'm amazed in retrospect he hung in there in some classes.

College has been a challenge at times also. He reported the CA state university he attended to the Dept. of Education because they were not in compliance with the law. After an investigation they were cited and required to be in compliance to continue to receive federal funds.

I can't imagine how hard college would have been if he also was an athlete. In some ways maybe easier because he would have had an advocate to smooth the way for him (academic advisor). But, with the time alloted to playing/practicing and studying the students with LD are really @ a disadvantage.

Our son transferred to another CA state U. with great support for students with disabilities and will graduate in June (5 years) with a computer science/information technology degree.

CaBB,

Thats awesome your son is graduating. I am all for helping kids who are willing to do what it takes even if they have disabilities.You should be real proud of him.

I'm surprised nobody has said this yet (in so many words) but the investments made by schools to nurture the athletes is an investment, pure and simple.

They have to tutor the athletes to ensure they remain eligible, which ensures they can play, which hopefully helps their team win, which might lead to a national championship, which might lead to some TV revenue....and a bowl pot share, which hopefully leads to greater exposure, that pleases the alumni who open their checkbook, which helps improve the general campus facilities, which draw a better, more diverse student population (which is quickly headed towards a buyers market by the way), which then attracts the better athletes.

I'm not saying it revolves around the athlete. They are merely part of the circle.

Also, keep in mind the $2,500,000 "student/athlete assistance" initially referred to is not simply bricks and mortar. It's also personnel to provide the tutoring. It's also the Administrators and the compliance and the reporting systems and personnel.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
I think it is incorrect to equate football/basketball players with baseball players and what goes on at colleges

Absolutely. Yes football and basketball
can be considered the cash cow.

Anybody can play football.

quote:

Absolutely. Yes football and basketball can be considered the cash cow.

True. But baseball players enter with higher credentials yet only graduate at about the same rate as football and basketball players. So one could question whether or not they might(?) be under-performing. The NCAA thought so and this is the reason for some of the NCAA's new transfer rules, etc... (Somewhat misguided IMO, but "it is what it is" nevertheless).

And you certainly wouldn't be suggesting that only revenue-producing athletes be given the academic support would you? Nah, couldn't be...surely you didn't mean that!

There was a poster who posted some startling info on how few theletic college programs produced a net revenuse. It was only a handful.

Yeah, let's try 19.... little more than a handful, but point made

I think the first thing that needs to happen is the number of games needs to be reduced.

Remember-- STUDENT-athlete

19 compared to just under 300 D1 colleges is a small handful.
Those Southern teams have all the sun screen and beach trips to pay for.

The support is there at every school if the student looks for and takes advantage of it

Don't you think the USC Trojan band gets academic support---they practice every day and travel to the games just like a football player

How about the volleyball teams we have been watching the past few weeks on ESPN U?

Like everything else in life---you need to seek out and take advanatage of what is offered you---those that don't are just plain lazy

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
TPM

Please define "some schools cheat" !!!!

Give answers to test might define cheating. Just google NCAA sanctions imposed.

Baseball and other college sports are small fish in the big pond compared to football/basketball. Never have seen sanctions imposed for schools for baseball, but it happens in football. A baseball team can manage to live without it's star 2Bman, but most college football programs can't live without their star running back.

Someone told me that keeping basketball players eligible is the hardest thing, not sure if that is true.

As far as I am aware, northern schools that travel south get split gate fees, which helps offset travel costs. That's why some teams are willing to play teams that have 5-6K per game.

A baseball dad I know was a star s****r player in his late teens and early 20's. After flunking out of his first college, he was picked up by a school with the #1 s****r program in the country and was told his job was to put people in the stands. He said that each week, his coach asked what tests and finals he had. The very next day, the player would be given the answers to all of his tests. I certainly hope this is not happening these days, although I wouldn't be surprised if it is.

quote:

The very next day, the player would be given the answers to all of his tests. I certainly hope this is not happening these days, although I wouldn't be surprised if it is.

Sounds partially the blame of the professor.. quit using the same test over and over again.

I had a professor this semester who would put up the keys to old exams on his webpage specifically for us to look at.

Having toured a number of facilities with my son this summer, most schools have strong academic support avaialble to all students, not just athletes. I think the athletes are encouraged/required to take adavantage of it.

A lot of the support is from upper class and grad students receiving fincial aid from the school--tutoring is their work-study obligation.

When I was shown the academic support facilities at a major D1 school, it was a true student support center, and the only athlete accomodation was scheduling. All services were available to all students, and I suspect this is true of most schools.

DX


Thank you

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
How about the volleyball teams we have been watching the past few weeks on ESPN U?

I guarantee you those volleyball teams get academic support and would not be surprised if the USC band does!