ACT, SAT, PSAT, ACTII

PSAT= Preliminary SAT, usually given in Oct of Sophomore Year. I viewed it much the same as a local or regional showcase, to "get the students' feet wet", so to speak, in preparing for what lies ahead with the "real" SAT.

SAT11 = Subject specific test administered by SAT. Like AP tests, depending on the students score and the admissions policies of the specific school, a student may receive college credit.

Not familiar with ACT111.

Most Texas colleges don't require both. SAT seems to be the accepted standard in this part of the woods.
www.collegeboard.com is a wealth of info on the subject.

Some schools are now requiring SAT 11's in addition to either ACT or SAT 1.

The PSAT is not a "preliminary" anything.

It is THE test, the results of which, determine your eligibility to continue on in the National Merit Scholarship Competition. You are a participant, a Commended Student, a National Merit Semi-Finalist; and, hopefully, a Finalist.

While many view it is a "practice" test for the SAT examination, it has much more weight than that in shaping someone's academic future. There are many colleges and universities that give FULL scholarships for National Merit Finalists.

Beenthere:

For the vast majority of kids -- including most baseball players -- the PSAT is indeed a preliminary, or practice, test. If you do well enough to be in the money for the National Merit program, that is fantastic, but you are only talking about the very top of the list there (but you already knew that).

Thanks for the reminder beenthere. You are correct. about Nat'l Merit etc. , and I believe that is the name of the test, but I said "I viewed it as..." That translated as IMHO to me.
Why??? My daughter, (top 2-5% Nationally, depending year of school) just missed being among the Commended. Hence, my summation.

I think what Been is saying is the PSAT score sticks with you. It will be on your transcripts and for some who go through the recruiting process early, coaches may use that score to see if the player will meet their schools academic requirements. So, it's important for the student to take this test seriously and not view it as practice only. And yes, if you score highly on this test...it puts you in the running for National Merit.

SAT II's are used by top Universities to help determine students knowledge of specific subjects. 3 or 4 subjects are taken..usually English and Math are required and then the student can select from several subjects, our son took Chemistry, English and Math. I've never heard of Universities giving credit or units for scores on these tests.

AP exams are subject exams given after completion of AP courses in High School. High scores on these exams, 4's or 5's, will result in Universities granting credit or units for these courses.

In my son's journey through this process, I learned an interesting factoid: Qualifying as a National Merit Semi-Finalist is, indeed, based on achieving a "certain" threshold score on the PSAT, but each state's threshold score differs. A state's threshold score for National Merit qualification is based on historical test performance from a preceding year, but that benchmark score seldom varies by more than a point or two. Therefore, it is harder to be declared a National Merit Semi-Finalist in some states than it is in others. MA, CT, NY have very high "threshold" scores. In one state a student would be awarded National Merit Commended Scholar recognition, but, in another state, the same score might have garnered that student National Merit Semi-Finalist recognition because of that state's lower threshold score. Esoteric, I know, but interesting,possibly, to some....

If the PSAT test is taken as a freshman, does that result set up the National Merit or is it based on the result from the sophomore attempt?

PSAT...I believe it is the junior score that counts.

BeenthereIL,

I know there is a PSAT (Pre or Prelimary not sure, but trial run anyway) that does qualify National Merit Scholars.

The PSAT is normally first taken as a sophomore, the regular SAT from junior on, until satisfactory results. Right?

It is the junior, and on, score that is for college entrance eligibility.

I did not know that the PSAT hit the transcript, but the rest do.

The PSAT can be taken before the sophomore year.

I am wondering if the initial attempt affects the National Merit qualifications or just the PSAT taken as a sophomore.

I think it's the PSAT taken in the fall of Junior year.

Hello Sports Fans,

[IMG]YOU'RE NOT GONNA BELIEVE THIS ONE!!![/IMG]

Because we hadn't seen the results for his PSAT's I told C6jr. to go to the office to see "what's up" when he got back to school this past Monday.

Wednesday he comes home with a letter that opens up with;

"Dear Parents,

I want to inform you of an unfortunate situation regarding your daughter/son's PSAT scores. Approximately 25 ungraded answer sheet have surfaced in the last couple of days......"

The letter goes on to say its too late to resubmit and grade the tests, but here's the booklet and the answer sheet for your review.

It also says we are free to use the information to prepare for the Junior year test which is linked to the National Merit Scholar Component.

No apology! No offer for the school to grade and estimate their scores! Just a lame explanation that only strengthens the public peception/stereotype that; "Those that can do, those that can't teach, and those that can't teach very well become school administrators".

What is really aggravating is this is of course the one independent tool to judge the TRUE quality of education that our 25 kids are really receiving, and also a great indicator of what we may be needing to do to get our kids to the next level. But hey just waiting until next year when there are only a couple of semesters left is just fine.

After I post this I'm gonna call them and ask for them to grade the tests. Would anyone care to wager [is Petey around] that they didn't keep a copy of the answer sheet?

Later

C6

Hello Sports Fans,

Seems a few parents had the same feelings I had and it turns out the school is grading the tests to give the 25 kids a good estimate of their "would have been" scores.

Needless to say they didn't make copies of the test sheets. Hopefully C6jr. didn't toss it out.

Later

C6

Celtic,
So what happened? I am not a fan of standardized testing on any level. I think more and more schools are trending towards looking at the applicant as a whole person and what was accomplished ( honors classes, community service, school involvement, etc.) over their 4 years in HS.

I'm with Fungo on this one.

About the only test that's talked about in our neck of the woods is the ACT. When Dartmouth became a possibility my son had to take the SATII for admission. It made for some hasty times and barely made it in time to take the last test possible. Luckily he did well enough (but not by much) to get in. Here's where I think the HS counselors kind of dropped the ball. They should have at least made us aware that certain schools (East and West coast) will require the SAT for admission. Live and learn.

Now, whenever asked I tell whoever that I highly advise they take both just in case.

Frank

PASSION - "There are many things in life that will catch your eye, but only a few will catch your heart...pursue those."

My impression is that the SAT is more typically used in the West and the ACT in the Mid-west and East, but they are essentially interchangeable.

I've looked at the applications from dozens of schools and the Common App and they all ask for either the SAT I or ACT. Schools, at their option, ask for SAT II tests (usually a math, the writing and one of your choice). Most schools don't seem to ask for SAT II, but the number is increasing. (the tougher the school is to get into, the more likely they ask for SAT IIs).

I've never seen any school ask for your PSAT score on an admissions app and when your SAT scores are sent by the College Board, your PSAT is not included. Every SAT I and II is reported and you can no longer pick and choose what you want sent. You can cancel a test within a few days of taking it and no report of it will be made to you or anyone.

The PSAT can be taken once and only once, usually in the fall of a student's junior year. As Beenthere stated, the score from the PSAT alone makes one eligible for the National Merit scholarship program. The PSAT is also used as an indicator of what one might expect to score on the SAT, which can be taken multiple times. Most colleges will accept the highest score from the math and verbal sections from any of the SAT tests taken, and add them together for admission qualifications. The SAT II exams are subject specific---required by many of the academically elite universities. More often now, the ACT is becoming more widely accepted as an alternative to the SAT for admissions. Way back when, the SAT was the required admissions exam, since the ACT was for some reason regarded as inferior. Not the case anymore.

Is this heaven?...

The PSAT score is not sent by the College Board, but it is on your transcript. The PSAT score can be used to indicate whether your SAT score will be high enough for admission to a University. Our son wrote some schools he was interested in and included his PSAT score before he had his SAT results.
The PSAT test should be taken seriously.

well, I'll just chalk this up to yet another thing I don't get.

My son took the PSAT twice and was told he could take it again (and again); and, his result is not on his official high school (or any other) transcript and not on his college board report (of SAT I and II scores).

"PSAT/NMSQT" stands for Preliminary SAT/ National Merit Scholarship Qualifying Test. The test is administered in October of each year for Juniors. You don't call up the Educational Testing Service and sign up for the test the way you do with the SAT; you get the test administered through your college placement office. Sophomores (even freshmen I suppose) can take the test for practice, but must retake it in their Junior year to qualify for the National Merit awards, no matter how well they might have done as sophomores. If you don't qualify for National Merit, based on the score you receive in December, then all the test did was to serve as your "practice" for the SAT, if you ever take that test. If you qualify for National Merit Scholarship awards, your name will be put on a list compiled and distributed by the National Merit Scholarship Corporation to colleges across the country, and your mail box will be inundated with mailings from these colleges offering you scholarship $$. Not all schools participate in the National Merit Program, which doesn't mean you won't still be a "National Merit Scholar," it just means the school does not give you any money for being so recognized. Preparing for this test is really worth it, if there is a chance your son might score high enough to be considered a Nat'l Merit scholar.

Some baseball questionnaires ask for the score,probably figuring the student might not have taken the SAT/ACT yet. If memory serves, Stanford asked for the score on their select camp application.

If you still have questions call the National Merit Scolarship Corporation at 847 866-5100 and no, I don't work/freelance for them, I just have all the papers because we just went through the process.

edit: [deleting a bunch of stuff that Thurber already said, and posted ahead of me...)

And a score of 200 qualifies as a "commended" scholar. A higher score (varies by state, typically 210-215) gets "semifinalist" status. Additional stuff (essay, etc.) is used to winnow the semis down to the finalists. The PSAT is not (to my knowledge) used as a formal entrance qualification at any college, but SAT's which correspond to that score would. (A 200 on the SAT corresponds to about 1400 on the SATs) The names of PSAT semifinalists are published, and those kids get a lot of unsolicited mail from colleges (kind of like 90+ LHP's!)

Also, the SAT test will change for '06's - it goes from a two part (math & verbal) 1600 point max test to a three part, 2400 point max math, verbal and written test.
[exhale]

D'oh!

In the good ol' days, the SAT vs. ACT thing was a matter of geography. Today, I think it is a matter of marketing. Some high schools talk ACT, others down the street push SAT.
There are colleges that will want one or the other, but I've never dealt with one.
In the vast majority of cases, either test will suffice for admission.

Take the PSAT seriously, but don't get upset if things don't go too well.

Unless you are in the National Merit category, it carries little weight with colleges in terms of admission. If you make National Merit-competitive scores, it's great. But it's still just a beginning.

They will put more emphasis on SAT or ACT scores, and far more and increasing emphasis on GPA and the high school courses you've taken.

Ran across this topic and thought I would bump it up for our new board members.

In CA it is usual to take a PLAN test in freshman year and the PSAT in sophomore year in preparation for the real deal JR & SR years. These are good preliminary tests to take, especially because the PLAN is based on the ACT and the PSAT is based on the SAT. If the percentile your son receives on these preliminary tests is significantly different, it may point out which test is more suitable to give them a better chance for higher scores. Most colleges will accept either test these days. (Verify by looking on-line at the admissions criteria for individual colleges.)

Remember, the sooner your son starts taking the college testing the more time he will have for any tutoring or re-testing as needed. Timing is important too. Most HS recommend taking tests in the spring, but this can be the busiest time for baseball players to find spare time for tutoring classes! There is no penalty for taking the SAT/ACT tests multiple times. Also, find out early if your college choices require SAT II’s. The best time to take the science test (Biology or Chemistry) is right after completing the course. So if you take Biology in your sophomore year, and you want to take the SAT II in Biology, don’t wait until you're a junior! Do wait until the fall of senior year to take Math and English SAT II's to allow as much time in the classroom as you can for these subject tests.

While on the subject of SATs. By far the best book I've seen on helping with SAT preparation was "Cracking the SATs" by the Princeton Review. I even read it and retook the sample tests and was amazed how well it works. I'm an engineer (which means I'm lousy at the verbal stuff) and it really made an amazing difference in my performance on the verbal part of the test.

From the College Board SITE.... www.collegeboard.com

quote:

---

The Preliminary SAT®/National Merit Scholarship Qualifying Test is a co-sponsored program by the College Board and National Merit Scholarship Corporation (NMSC).

PSAT/NMSQT stands for Preliminary SAT/National Merit Scholarship Qualifying Test. It's a standardized test that provides firsthand practice for the SAT I: Reasoning Test and SAT II: Writing Test. It also gives you a chance to enter National Merit Scholarship Corporation (NMSC) scholarship programs.

---

quote:

---

You should definitely take the PSAT/NMSQT in your junior year. Many students benefit from also taking it earlier, typically in their sophomore year. If you take it earlier, recognize that the PSAT/NMSQT is a junior-level test, so don't get discouraged if your score is low. Your score will usually increase as your years of study increase.
Your School's Home Page
Visit your school's PSAT/NMSQT home page to find out when your school is administering the PSAT/NMSQT. Check in regularly to see important announcements posted by your school's test coordinator.

---

From the www.nationalmerit.org site

quote:

---

Program Recognition
Of the 1.3 million entrants, some 50,000 with the highest PSAT/NMSQT® Selection Index scores (verbal + math + writing skills scores) will qualify for recognition in the National Merit® Scholarship Program. In April following the fall test administration, high-scoring participants from every state will be invited to name two colleges or universities to which they would like to be referred by NMSC. In September, these high scorers will be notified through their schools that they have qualified as either a Commended Student or Semifinalist.

Commended Students
In late September, more than two-thirds or about 34,000 of the approximately 50,000 high scorers on the PSAT/NMSQT® will receive Letters of Commendation in recognition of their outstanding academic promise, but they will not continue in the competition for Merit Scholarship® awards. Some of these students, however, will be candidates for Special Scholarships sponsored by corporations and businesses.

Semifinalists
In early September, about 16,000 students, or approximately one-third of the 50,000 high scorers, will be notified that they have qualified as Semifinalists. To ensure that academically able young people from all parts of the United States are included in this talent pool, Semifinalists are designated on a state representational basis. NMSC will provide scholarship application materials to Semifinalists through their high schools. To be considered for a Merit Scholarship® award, Semifinalists must advance to Finalist standing in the competition by meeting high academic standards and all other requirements explained in the materials provided to each Semifinalist.

Finalists
In February, some 15,000 Semifinalists will be notified by mail at their home addresses that they have advanced to Finalist standing. High school principals will be notified and provided with a certificate to present to each Finalist.

---

Apparently each school district is different because my son's only offers it to Juniors.

P-Dog mentioned the score levels from past years. I was told to make semi-finalists last year a student needed a combined score of 212.

Being a sophomore and right in the middle of all this, I think I'll comment

I recently took the PSAT's last october, and in this case it does not count. I actually scored higher than 99% of all college bound juniors, and it means nothing because I am only a sophomore. In this sense, the PSAT can be a preliminary test. when you get to your junior year, however, the PSAT can win you a 5,000 dollar scholarship, not to mention it goes on your college transcript AND you get a letter sent to 3 colleges of your choice reccomending you. THAT is major.

The SAT's, meanwhile, are taken in April or May of your Junior year. This is currently graded on the 1600 point scale, but it is soon to move to the 2400 point scale, essay and all (I am the first class to take this, yay 06ers).

I can tell you now, almost every school I know in New Jersey, New York and Pennsylvania are Psat/Sat oriented. There's my 2 cents.

BTW: Despite the fact that the sophomore year PSAT's do not go on your college transcripts, nor are you elligible for National Merits, I have been receiving numerous letters from colleges regarding my grades (about 15 in the past 2 days). No parent should let their child take the PSAT's lightly, as they are an important step in getting colleges to recognize you (or at least begin to).

NJ Pitch

"P-Dog mentioned the score levels from past years. I was told to make semi-finalists last year a student needed a combined score of 212."

Every state's threshold score for National Merit recognition is different. Some are higher than 212, and some are lower. My '04 just learned he is a National Merit Finalist. The only National Merit scholarship award he might qualify for is one of the "at large" $2500 scholarships that National Merit considers all Finalists for, since the college he is going to does not award any student National Merit money. For those colleges that do participate and make monetary awards, the money available can be quite significant. The higher score, at least in part, the more money you may be in line to receive. However, many of the most academically competitive schools do not make individual National Merit awards, because so many of their enrolled students are drawn from the National Merit Finalist pool.

To each his own, but my recommendation would be to take the SAT I test once as a senior in October, regardless of how well your son might have done on it before, because it is amazing how much better the kids seem to do as seniors. Mine discovered that it has been real cool to be a very good baseball player with a high SAT score.

Oh yes, I forgot to mention why each state's necessary level is different.

Each state gets to have exactly 1/50th of the national merit scholars. This means that in larger states, it is harder to make scholar, and depending on the high scores of each state, one states low score could conceivably be another's high score. It's messed up.

NJ Pitch

From my understanding the SAT measures english and math skills, while the ACT measures both of those as well as history and science.

The SAT is the test of choice here in Virginia, but most schools will take an ACT school.

A practice PSAT is given at our HS your sophomore year, the official PSAT is given the junior year. Both are conducted and paid for by our School Board. The PSAT score remained on my sons transcipt ONLY until he had an official SAT/ACT score to replace it.

I don't recall any school requesting a PSAT score although many applications did ask the question "are you a national merit scholar".

We were told by schools that they are still requiring these scores but they have less and less bearing on admittance, colleges are now looking at them,, but are now becoming more interested in a well rounded HS resume of classes, grades, work experiences, volunteer experiences, athletic, clubs, etc.

_______________
"Baseball, it is said, is only a game. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole."

"JustMom"

I believe that the correlation between the PSAT and the approximate score you will get on the SAT I is incorrect.
Most of the boys I know who score around the 115 - 120 on the PSAT have scored anywhere from 1350 - 1500 on the SAT I.
As far as SAT II's being required at some of the "elite" schools I know they will take the SAT I and ACT in lieu of the SAT II's.
It is best to take all exams and see what is what.
My son did very well on his ACT and SATI but not where he needed to be on his SAT II's.
I think that the High School career should hold more value then these tests.
A lot of kids won't apply to some reach schools because they feel that their "test scores" don't warrant it.
I agree with the posters who state that the High Schools drop the ball. They do.
It is the responsibility of the parent to assure that all these things happen correctly. Don't worry about being a thorn in the side of your child's guidance counselor. With so many kids to guide some slip through. DON'T LET IT BE YOURS.
He/She might be the one to do that fabulous thing.

Normally, I see the SAT II used only for placement purposes at a specific school although there are schools that request it for admissions purposes as well.

Sirguy, the "norm" is supposed to be 10 points on each part of the the PSAT to equal 100 points on each part of the SAT. But they've added a third section to the PSAT, (still just 2 for the SAT until '06) so for the total score it's now about 15 points PSAT = 100 points SAT. And they say that SAT scores typically rise by about 100 points per year for students who take the test more than one year.

D'oh!

rbinaz

I am in agreement--- the SAT II is for specific purposes at specific schools-- the norm is the SAT I and or the ACT

TRhit

SAT: East Coast and West coast.
SAT II: Required at the Ivies.
ACT: Most Midwest Schools.
Some appear to want both. My Junior just took his SAT and ACT for first time. He'll take SAT again in March and ACT in Fall. Any necessary SAT IIs he'll take later.
SAT 2005 tests will apparently include essay sections.
Some schools will go for adjusted score if high GPA.
There are also institution specific scholarships available for students who score high on SAT or ACT. Motivation for my Junior to study his you know what off.
PSAT for Pell grants and Nat'l Merit schollies.
Is it a business or what?

I think it tends to be a regional thing between the two tests as mentioned previously. Back when I was in HS, we were told that if we plan to attend college in state (Ohio) take the ACT. However, if you want to go to college out of state, then we should take the SAT.

I have a question though. I may be wrong but my daughter (sophomore) just took what I thought was the PSAT this past Fall. I was thinking that she got a score correlating it to the ACT as well.....as in "this is equivalent to a score of XX on the ACT". Does that sound right?

*****************************
"Hey dad.......how 'bout a catch?"

My son took the PSAT's the end of his 10th grade and the begining of his 11th grade. You can take them more than once. He just took the SAt's and the ACT's a few months ago. Did very well 1180 and 27.. he is going to take them again end of this year, beginging of 12th grade and maybe again after the first of the yeat 2005. .. They will only take the highest score ..every point counts.

Just to update, PSAT's are turning out to academically be great introductions for colleges. Today I literally received 10 letters from various colleges, one of them being Brown inviting me to their summer college honors school thing. I'd encourage everyone to encourage their child to take the PSAT's sophomore year, it's big.

NJ Pitch

Bump...