Advice for player? Conflicting coaching advice?

I would say to have the kid speak with his coach after a practice and explain what he was taught from the Cal State guy.  I think if the kid spoke to his coach and not the parent it would show maturity and his coach might be more receptive to the conversation verses a parent coming and speaking with him.  Have the kid ask his coach what exactly he thinks he is doing wrong and how the Cal State coach instructs his outfielders to do it.  Who knows, it might be an eye opener for the local coach. 

The tried-and-true sage advice is that your son should act enthusiastic about the advice given by his fall coach, and then during games he should do what the D1 coach told him to do.

 

I'm curious however about the difference in opinion about the footwork. It's pretty basic.  Drop step on balls behind you.  Try to keep your head still (so your eyes don't bounce) while sprinting after emergency balls. Crow-hop to get yourself under control on do-or-die throws on balls in front of you.  Shuffle-step (slide step) on sac fly throws when you're camped under the ball. Reverse pivot, whenever it's necessary. That's about it. Maybe I'm forgetting something?

 

I would discourage your son from listening to the coach in practice and then doing the opposite in a game.  Coaches see everything and the coach might take that as an "F" you in the fact that the kid isn't really listening to his instruction.  I would have the kid speak to the coach like an adult and go from there.

Can you sleep at night, if you learn both ways?

What if another D1 coach teaches the other way?

Also, I wouldn't automatically assume the D1 coach is smarter than a local guy.  Could be, but maybe not.

I'm trying to imagine how basic OF footwork could antagonize a coach, and I can't.

There will always be conflicting advice from coaches in these types of situations.  I don't think there is "one way" to do anything.  your son could simply explain that he was showed a new way and he is trying it out to see if it works better.  I always encourage my kids to take what I try to teach and "try" it, and explain that they can modify it, use it or completely disregard it if it doesn't work for them.  And like the previous posts say, have you son talk to the fall coach.  If the Fall coach is of the mind set that his way is the only way, that may be a red flag.  I already detect a red flag if he is singling out a player for negative examples, but hey, that's just me

What in his footwork was causing missed catches or bad throws?  Or was this "change" for changes sake? 

 

Does the fall ball coach have a good coaching resume?  I myself would lean toward the D1 coach on this.  More likely than not, he knows what he is talking about. 

 

My son is going thru this type of change right now.  I have encouraged him to talk to the coach to discuss the reasoning behind the different methods and changes.  I would have your son do the same.  It is student of the game time.  Eventually he'll settle on the technique that works best for him.  Good luck. 

There is nothing surprising here. Most HS and youth travel coaches do not understand OF mechanics, at least that was my son's experience. All your son needs to say is "coach, coach xyz from CSF (or fill in the blank) taught me to do it this way when I was at their camp". He will likely have a constructive conversation with the coach and they will come to some sort of consensus. This helps develop the players confidence and ability to communicate.

 

Good luck!

 

 

The instruction was on crow hop.  D1 OF coach worked with my kid (and group of 8 outfielders) for 3+ hours over 2 days and then critiqued that technique over another 8 hours of game time and drills.

 

The Fullerton team just had multiple players chosen in the MLB draft, including at least 1 OF player. Not that it matters I guess... but I'm thinking he's a smart guy? 

 

I appreciate everyone's time - I live in a small town and certainly don't want to upset the only baseball opportunity in town.

 

The same Fall coach told players last weekend to let him know if other coaches helping out with the team teach a different technique and to go to him to let him know... so I'm not sure if that is more to "rat out" other coaches?  Or if it's because this coach wants things done his way? I'm not getting the feeling it's because he's open to other styles of coaching... but maybe I'm wrong?

I think this is the best advice.  My kid has got instructions, as a catcher and a hitter, that have conflicted with what some other coach's teachings.  In that case I taught my son early to tell them that he was told differently by the other coach, and ask the coach how best to understand what to do.  In virtually every case I am aware of the coach has either said do it like the more professional instructor said, or clarified his teachings so that it enhanced what had already been taught.  Very seldom has a coach just out and out disagreed with more professional/knowledgeable coach. 

My son's second college coach teaches a totally different method than his first regarding the OF mechanics of fielding and crow-hopping a roller.  I've also run into this on several occasions with other HS players I coach who go to college camps (and, in fact, the Fullerton camp was one where a different technique came up).  As a coach, I am always open to hearing different techniques and understand that there is not always just one correct way.

I agree your son should try to explain to the fall coach what he was taught and by who.  It won't be the last time your son has to deal with varying, sometimes contradicting, instruction. Communication is key to avoiding confusion and misunderstanding. 

Thanks, cabbagedad!  Good to know there are different approaches to crow hop... I did not know that. Also helpful to know that at the college level, there are also variations to this, as well!

 

Was it the method of jumping more vertically for a crow hop vs. outward (forward gaining momentum)?

James G, that is an excellent question.  I will have to go to next practice over the weekend to watch for myself as to what is being asked of the players.  My son brings his knee up fairly high in the movement.  I believe the Fullerton coach recommended that for taller players, that extra height in the knee gives more momentum and/or power?

James G - If that question was directed my way, the primary differences were...

 

method #1 - (traditional/ old school) field the ball off the glove side, step thru with the arm side leg, crow hop and throw but don't crow hop too vertically - gain good ground toward the target.

 

method #2 - field the ball off the glove side, then shuffle the arm side leg behind the other side to close off the front side and throw (more akin to an infielder shuffle throw).  there is no crow hop here - the claim is quicker transition and more consistent squaring of the shoulders.

 

I see pros and cons to both.  I've always used and taught method #1.  I would be curious to hear if these are the same differences CAGIRL's son is dealing with.  Based on her last post, it sounds like it may be something different altogether.

 

 

There isn't a large enough sample of college game-video to prove which crow-hop method most college OFs do.

 

But there's very large sample of mlb game-video proving that mlb OF's crow-hops display virtually zero knee-lift as compared to what you see at clinics, etc. 

 

I'm not great at describing stuff, but I'll give it a shot:  a mlb "crow-hop" involves a stutter-stop (that breaks them down and get them under control) followed by a shuffle-step (or slide-step) as the throw is made.

 

Perhaps this thread hi-jack should be moved to the "Coaches Tips" forum?

I know this: I would definitely listen to the Fullerton coach, unless the fall coach could give me a good reason not to, other than a threat. Is the fall coach a high school coach or is he just the coach of a travel team or some group that charges a fee? Either way, why don't you ask the fall coach in an effort to clear up the confusion.

 

I have seen lots of bad coaching at lots of levels, but I have never seen a poorly coached team at Fullerton.

Interesting discussion.

 

All I know is that through 2 sons...whenever conflict or differences of opinion came up whether it was HS/travel or college/summer or HS/college...communication was the key to moving forward.

 

I am often surprised on here when folks feel overly nervous to communicate with their coach.  I just kind of look at it like the rest of my life...if I communicate respectfully, no matter how uncomfortable, about 99% of people will respect me in return.  Even if we disagree.

 

Nearly every time I've gotten in trouble with someone were the times that I didn't communicate and talk out differences.  Same applies here I think.  Communicate with local coach and ask for his feedback.  It is unlikely that it will be a big deal and then you move on to the next hurdle or next good thing...wherever that may be.  

Sometimes HS coaches contradict non-HS hitting advice that a player has received from an outside instructor, etc.

 

I can see where this could be a genuine problem, because hitting is a huge part of the game, and hitters are getting huge reps of BP swings in front of their HS coach.

 

In this thread, the poster's son has gotten contradictory advice about a relatively insignificant part of the game--the correct way to crow-hop. 

 

Geez, just let it go and crow hop the way the HS coach wants you to.  It's not worthy of "communication".   Choose your battles wisely.  OK, so this isn't a battle.  Well, then, choose your communication topics.  Why risk even a small chance of annoying the coach about such an insignificant aspect of the game?

 

One year, my middle son's HS coach made a huge deal about importance that baserunners hit the bag with the left foot. (He must have attended a clinic.)  Some people thinks it's important.  I think it's baloney.  But the main point is, I told my son to act really enthusiastic about trying and learning to consistently hit the bag with his left foot....but to not worry about which foot he hit it with during the games.   Choose your battles.

 

 

I guess I should clarify that the technique my son was taught was taught to him 2 weeks ago by coaches at his dream D1 school on the West coast - so his "uneasiness" was about learning (and practicing) a technique back in a very small town in the East... a technique which is different from the college where he would love to play in the future.  The small town coach is a volunteer for a fall program - not a paid program or a high school program.  Likewise, son plans to attend the same prospect camp for the next 3 summers.  We do have some more prospect camps on our list for this Fall... it'll be interesting to see how they run outfield drills, practice, etc.  Just looking for guidance from those who have been there and done that.  That's all. 

If it were my kid, I would do my best to eliminate any "uneasiness" about this relatively insignificant aspect of the game, as freddy put it. There are so many other things to stress about if he wants to.

 

First, crow hop technique is something that a kid should be able to adjust, if he wants, with very little effort. It's not like the muscle memory will be indelibly etched whatever he does. He should be able to get ready for the next Fullerton camp with a few weeks prep, easily.

 

Second, I cannot imagine the following conversation among Fullerton coaches: "CAGIRL's kid has all the tools and would be a great fit for us here at Fullerton but he doesn't crow hop the way we teach it, so we will pass on him."

 

Third, there was good advice here about communication. I don't think any coach would agree, for example, that a hitter like Big Papi and a hitter like Chase Utley should have the same approach at the plate. The advice for Big Papi would probably be counterproductive for Utley, and vice-versa.

 

If the kid explains that it is not a matter of right or wrong, but based on his physical attributes the Fullerton crow hop will bring better results than the local crow hop.....and his performance backs up his claim....then the local coach would have to be a pretty unreasonable guy not to respect that.

 

Fourth, eliminate his uneasiness. Oh, I already said that.

Thanks so much!  Nice advice!  I appreciate greatly appreciate the input!

As others have stated the key is for your son to communicate with the Fall Coach.  Around here most fall team coaches are dads (the HS coaches can not coach in the fall).  My son has had the same issue with coaches before.  His HS coach doesn't like the way he picks the ball while catching, wants him to block everything.  His catching coach is currently behind the dish for the A's and has instructed him not to block everything.  I tend to think the person doing the instruction whose is at a higher level than others knows what he is doing.  

 

In your sons case I'd trust the CSF coach knows what hes doing but he's in a tough spot in that he needs to make the local coach not feel belittled.  He needs to talk to him and hopefully he can work it out.

Thanks daveccpa.  I thought it was interesting that it was a non-issue at the following practice?  Kid was doing everything the same, apparently... so maybe another coach said something?  Hard to tell.  I think the take away message from so many posts here is that kid needs to be able to strike up a conversation with whoever the coach may be if there is confusion or clarification needed.  That is a very important life skill to be learned!

Players will get conflicting advice throghout their career, its up to them to learn what advice they will follow and how to communicate there decision, if at all, to the "advisor". Conflicting advice is all around including within the same professional baseball organization

 

Each advisor is different as to how they handle rejection of their advice, some may say nothing but hold it against you, others will respect your decision, others will want you to at least try it their way.... 

Outstanding advice.

CAGIRL - welcome to the hsbbweb!  I can feel your enthusiasm for wanting to give your son the best chance.  Based on your comments here and in another thread, it seems you are putting the pressure on yourself to make sure things happen.  It really is not about you it is about your son.  Stewing over what the best coaching advice ought to be or how many pushups he ought to be doing could get you the opposite of what you really want to happen.  What you want to foster is his love of the game.  Be supportive and encouraging but let him experience everything.  Good coaches, bad coaches, politics, good parents, bad parents, etc. etc. are all part of the game.  Your son can handle all the positives and negatives that come with the game if you encourage him.

 

I would tell him to please the coach at the time.  Whether he crow hops, side hops, forward hops, or no hops will not affect the price of rice in China.  College coaches will grade him on arm strength, foot speed, ability to catch the ball, hitting, and hitting for power.  If he has a strong arm, they will see it regardless of technique.  The best way to develop arm strength is through long tossing and you can encourage him that way.  You can encourage him to develop his foot speed.  You can encourage him to play as many games as possible to develop his hitting but, but it ought to be because that is what his heart tells him to do not what you believe he needs to do. 

 

I did everything I could to help my son but it was all driven by him.  As one example, he asked for a batting cage for his 15th birthday and I'll admit it was an expensive birthday present but I knew he would make good use of it.  He called me from work when it was delivered and I told him I would help put it up when I got home.  When I got home, the cage was already up and I could hear the balls pinging in the back yard as I got out of the car.  He used it everyday of every spring, summer and fall until he went to college.  None of that was my idea and I never had to supply the motivation.  Parents can be facilitators but the motivation and desire ought to come from the player.   

Lovely remarks, ClevelandDad.  Many thanks!

 

Can you tell I'm a Type A individual?  Daughter of a University Professor Emeritus father and Laboratory Scientist mother... then married a US Naval Test Pilot.  Over-achiever myself and D1 athlete, as well.  LOL!  My poor children! 

 

I've lived in 11 states (as a military spouse) and see the opportunities are MUCH smaller in our very small town, than they would have been had we settled down in my So Cal region or any of the other locations where we used to reside.  So I guess I'm just busy trying to think ahead to various strategies (to compliment the great timeline articles & advice available on this website).

 

We took our 2017 kid to his first prospect camp at Fullerton just a few weeks ago because it's our family "home school" and our kid's "dream school".  My thinking was that the experience would clue us in as to whether baseball was just for fun - which is great and we'll support that however we can - or is it something he wants to focus on with hopes of playing in college.  I figured it would either terrify him or light a fire in his belly.  Well it lit something fierce in him!  Despite the exhaustion and pain in every muscle group after 2 days at the camp... and his first time facing 2014 pitchers throwing 90mph...  he just couldn't stop talking about how much fun it was to be there.

 

He's the same kid who saved up $400 of his own money to buy a DeMarini baseball bat - and asked for an indoor batting cage which we have in our garage and which he uses to hit 100 balls in every day. 

 

I agree - it has to be driven by the kid.  We had a huge discussion just last night about whether he wanted to be part of a Fall program which would require 2 hours of travel each night because of our remote location (and no other options in town).  I told him I'll get him where he needs to be if it's something he wants - but it all has to be driven by what he wants.  He's the one who plays.  Not me.  I'm not going to push him to do it. 

 

That being said, he was intimidated to return to a practice where he felt animosity from a coach.  I would not let him quit and made him face his anxiety.  That proved to be a good move since he was smiling and laughing after that practice.  It's a fine art to step in... and step away... when necessary, eh?

 

 

That is a great response.  You a type A?  Type A's can spot a type A one million miles away

You have great potential here.  This is a great community of supportive people and you have already made many fine contributions.  I wouldn't even lose one more minute of sleep over the small town stuff.  Keep encouraging your son to love the game and everything else will take care of itself   

I LOVE your response, ClevelandDad!  Excellent!  Just excellent!  Thank you so much!  

 

As I've said before, they are driving the bus.  We're just paying for the gas.  

NYdad2017...

 

And I don't know about you, but I spend a small FORTUNE on gas!