Advice for the "bench warmer"...

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Welcome to the HSBBW fl2015. For advice please review similarly themed threads. There is one active now...'New Coach not letting Son play his position.'. It's here in the General Items Forum.


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Hi FL2015 and welcome to the site,
Congratulations on your son making the JV team. You did well to advise your son to talk to the coach. We don't have a ton of info on your son here so I'll make some general statements that may or may not apply to your situation.

Regarding the side-arm throw... as a position player, there are times when a player has to "get on top of the ball" with his throw to keep it from tailing or sailing. He will need a mechanically correct overhand throw to accomplish this. He is still young enough that he may be able to make an adjustment if he works hard at it.
If he cannot make that adjustment but still loves the game, there may be a place for him as a pitcher.

Regarding "I didn't pay to watch my son warm the bench"... There are many costs associated with playing the game (not limited to team fees) and those costs escalate as the players move up and get into travel ball, summer ball, etc. Also, as players move up, competition and teammates get better and it gets tougher to crack the lineup. Paying those costs usually has little or no bearing on getting playing time. That all comes from the players working harder to continue to get better and continue to be able to compete for playing time.

The best thing your son can do is work hard on his game, try to get some good guidance along the way to know specifically what to work on, and enjoy playing. Don't put too much emphasis on comparing the other players that are playing, other than to know he needs to work hard enough to be clearly better than those on the field to leave no doubt in the coaches' minds.

You will find a ton of information here on this site that will provide additional guidance. Do some searches on related topics. Best of luck to you and your son.

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Great advice cabbagedad!



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My son just made it on a high school junior varsity team which is currently playing summer ball.

Congratulations, It's a start of a new journey.

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The problem is the coach won't let him play.

Coaches don't ban players from playing. Position and playing time must be earned. You son is now in high school. Fair isn't equal anymore. Fair has to be earned.

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I adviced my son to talk with the coach and find out what he needed to do to earn more playing time.

Very good advice. He's too old to have mommy and daddy fighting his battles.

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His response was he needed to learn how to throw overhand. My son naturally throws side-arm. He has started letting him pitch some, but never for a full inning.

Sidearm pitching can be effective if it's a righthander facing a righthanded hitter or lefty versus lefty. If he throws the opposite hand of the hitter sidearm sometimes it looks like a beachball to the hitter.

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I know I'm his mother, but I've watched him play for years. I know he can play.

1) You're not a baseball coach.
2) You're biased (don't feel bad ... we all are).
3) The past does not matter. Your son has gone up a level.

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But, when I watch the kids the coaches allow to play drop balls, miss grounders, and goof off, I have to ask myself is this about teaching and nurturing baseball skills, or is it just a game of ******* up and being in the right click.

1) You're not a coach. You're not at all the practices. Do you know how to judge high school varsity potential?
2) Do not poison your son's mind. Let him focus on being the best he can be. Other player's ability is out of his control.

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Also, summer ball wasn't cheap; there was a hefty fee. I didn't pay that to watch my son "warm the bench."

When you paid the fee your son became entitled to earn playing time, nothing more.

Most people on this site regardless of how successful their son's have become have a "my son got screwed" story along their journey. What the sons did was overcome the obstacles.

Practice hard and often. Treat each team practice like it's the seventh game of the World Series. Be prepared rather than complain. One successful at bat or inning on the mound might completely change the coach's perspective. Be ready for that moment.

Good luck to your son.

Very nice post RJM.

Thanks to all of you for the great advice! I just needed some objective opinions. By the way, my son does not know I've written this; I have not said anything negative to him nor the coach. I figured he needs to learn to speak up for himself, and that nothing in life comes easy. Many thanks.

I can't tell if your son only wants to pitch, and pitch sidearm, or if he is a position player whose arm slot when throwing is sidearm.

In connection with the latter, my son had an arm slot issue which no one really commented on until he was 13-14. He worked to fix it and now he throws with better mechanics. He not only throws better but his arm/elbow/shoulder are healthier.

My advice is listen to the coach, and encourage your son to improve his throwing mechanics. The older he gets, the more important it becomes.

My guess is that if the coach sees some improvement, your son will get his chance.

Wish there was a good answer to this question. Happens all the time. Just talked to a concerned mother about her son's playing time. Said he was scouted by some colleges and as soon as the coach found out he didn't get as much playing time. Happens on my son's travel team as well. People I've personally known for years do this all the time.

While it's not always fair, like it or not it's going to happen especially as the players get older. Talk to the coach to find out what your son needs to work on, don't be too negative towards the coach. They usually only hear from parents when there's a problem so if you don't sound like you are complaining but instead trying to figure out what you son needs to do to improve that will go a long way in helping your son to get more playing time.

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Originally posted by cabbagedad:
… Regarding the side-arm throw... as a position player, there are times when a player has to "get on top of the ball" with his throw to keep it from tailing or sailing. He will need a mechanically correct overhand throw to accomplish this. He is still young enough that he may be able to make an adjustment if he works hard at it….

I agree that the closer the arm angle is to parallel to the ground when the ball’s let go, the more the ball will “sail”(move to the throwing hand side). I will also note that the more the ball moves horizontally, the further it has to travel, thus making it slower to reach the target. And just to be sure to cover as many things as possible, I’ll mention that its sometimes more difficult for a player trying to catch a ball that’s moving horizontally. WHEW!

Having said all that, is it really the most important thing for a fielder to throw the ball with as little “movement” as possible?

is it not time for mommy to step out of the picture

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Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
...Having said all that, is it really the most important thing for a fielder to throw the ball with as little “movement” as possible?

Movement is a factor but not the only factor. Is it important for any position player to be able to make a long, strong, accurate throw? Yes it is.
Have you ever seen an OF at a high level make all of his throws from the side? IF's are included. 3b going deep backhand on the line must make that throw overhand. SS deep in the hole, same. Even 2b fielding balls at certain angles up the middle needs the overhand option. Obviously, many IF throws can/must be made from a lower release point, but those players must posess both.

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Originally posted by cabbagedad:
Movement is a factor but not the only factor.

Is it important for any position player to be able to make a long, strong, accurate throw? Yes it is.

You’ve made the point I was hoping would be made, and that is, the important part of the play is making the throw strong and accurate, and I don’t it matters if its 40’ or 400’.

The reason I wanted to be sure that’s what was important, and not the arm slot of the person throwing the ball, is because of something I’ve been told by ML level people on many occasions, that being that the result is what matters, not how its done. The only reason its important to me is, sometimes an inexperienced coach will force a player to change or not give him an opportunity to play, simply because of his arm slot, even though his accuracy and the strength of his throws may even be better than those using a more “acceptable” slot.

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Have you ever seen an OF at a high level make all of his throws from the side? IF's are included. 3b going deep backhand on the line must make that throw overhand. SS deep in the hole, same. Even 2b fielding balls at certain angles up the middle needs the overhand option. Obviously, many IF throws can/must be made from a lower release point, but those players must posess both.

OF’rs seldom make throws from the side, but they almost always have a lot more time to get set up to make the throw. IF’rs are totally different in that very often they don’t have time to get set.

My purpose wasn’t to say or even imply any fielder throwing totally sidearmed was a good thing, but rather that just because a fielder throws sidearmed, isn’t a good reason to just eliminate him or force him to change.

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Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
...My purpose wasn’t to say or even imply any fielder throwing totally sidearmed was a good thing, but rather that just because a fielder throws sidearmed, isn’t a good reason to just eliminate him or force him to change.

Stats,
I hear ya but I think I did give good reason. Again, there are many situations where a position player needs to have the overhand throw as a tool. If he is strictly and truly sidearm, he cannot consistently execute in those situations.
I'm not talking about slight variations of textbook overhand. I'm talking about a reasonable overhand or 3/4 throw vs. true sidearm.

The other issue with side a arm throw is that a ball in the dirt even if it is on line will take a abnormal bounce because of the spin of the ball produced from a sidearm throw. Makes it very difficult for a 1B to pick it also where a tag at a base is required also hard to field. Pretty much has too be on the money no bounce every time.

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Originally posted by cabbagedad:
I hear ya but I think I did give good reason. Again, there are many situations where a position player needs to have the overhand throw as a tool. If he is strictly and truly sidearm, he cannot consistently execute in those situations.
I'm not talking about slight variations of textbook overhand. I'm talking about a reasonable overhand or 3/4 throw vs. true sidearm.

Well, I’ve seen one heck of a lot of players who made throws sidearmed, but I’ve NEVER in over 60 years, seen one who makes every single throw with the same arm angle. Even pitchers like Kent Tekulve who never released a pitch above his belt made infield throws both over-the-top and ¾.

But, let’s say for a second that there was say a SS trying out for a team who threw everything sidearmed. If everything he was hit to test his skills, he made more accurate and stronger throws than all the other SS’s, would you still not pick him, only because he threw sidearmed?

And that’s my point. I understand what goes on, but it doesn’t make it the wisest course of action just because that’s what’s always been done.

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Originally posted by standballdad:
The other issue with side a arm throw is that a ball in the dirt even if it is on line will take a abnormal bounce because of the spin of the ball produced from a sidearm throw. Makes it very difficult for a 1B to pick it also where a tag at a base is required also hard to field. Pretty much has too be on the money no bounce every time.

That’s a perfect example of baseball dogma that I can’t say I’ve ever seen proof that it caused substantially more or even a little more trouble than a ball rotating perfectly from 6-12. Yes, it makes perfect sense that if someone threw a superball on concrete, the ball would act substantially different. Yes, it makes sense that a baseball with sidespin will “jump” more than one with 6-12 rotation, but how much is it really going to jump? Not to mention, how many throws have you ever seen with absolutely no sidespin?

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And that’s my point. I understand what goes on, but it doesn’t make it the wisest course of action just because that’s what’s always been done.

Baseball is a game of inches, throwing sidearm adds inches to the game. Not a good thing overall, unless you are a pitcher(maybe). I cannot think of one MLB player (other than a pitcher) that throws sidearm as a routine throw. There might be some but it has to be the rare exception. Yes there might be times when it is required but it is not the norm.

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That’s a perfect example of baseball dogma that I can’t say I’ve ever seen proof that it caused substantially more or even a little more trouble than a ball rotating perfectly from 6-12. Yes, it makes perfect sense that if someone threw a superball on concrete, the ball would act substantially different. Yes, it makes sense that a baseball with sidespin will “jump” more than one with 6-12 rotation, but how much is it really going to jump? Not to mention, how many throws have you ever seen with absolutely no sidespin?

Not sure how much baseball you have actually played, but I guarantee you that as the game gets faster better arms with the better players, the ones that are closer to a 6-12 rotation on the throw in the dirt are much easier to handle (truer hop) than a guy that throws the ball with side spin.

Stats,
Looks like we're going to disagree quite a bit today... and that's OK.

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Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
Well, I’ve seen one heck of a lot of players who made throws sidearmed, but I’ve NEVER in over 60 years, seen one who makes every single throw with the same arm angle.

I never said that. In fact, I said the opposite...
"Obviously, many IF throws can/must be made from a lower release point, but those players must posess both."
The assumption of this post has been that OP's son throws side-arm and not over the top - thus the comment by coach that "he needed to learn how to throw overhand".

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Even pitchers like Kent Tekulve who never released a pitch above his belt made infield throws both over-the-top and ¾.

So, you are agreeing that you must be able to throw from the top at times. Good. Could you imagine a RF who can only throw side-arm trying to throw out a runner going 1st to 3rd on a soft base hit? No way it can be done with any consistency. Way too much tail and sail.

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But, let’s say for a second that there was say a SS trying out for a team who threw everything sidearmed. If everything he was hit to test his skills, he made more accurate and stronger throws than all the other SS’s, would you still not pick him, only because he threw sidearmed?

Again, assuming true side-arm (something close to horizontal arm slot)...

College - no way he'd get that far. HS - I would only keep if last resort (We had one of these, sort of, and it became glaringly evident that he had to learn to make some throws from the top - he did but this was still his achilles). Little League - I would keep him because you don't cut little kids and this is when any decent coach would teach him to throw properly.

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...it doesn’t make it the wisest course of action just because that’s what’s always been done.

No, but it does when it's always been done that way for a reason.

Does your son throw side-arm? If so, sorry if I've been too direct.

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Originally posted by standballdad:

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That’s a perfect example of baseball dogma that I can’t say I’ve ever seen proof that it caused substantially more or even a little more trouble than a ball rotating perfectly from 6-12. Yes, it makes perfect sense that if someone threw a superball on concrete, the ball would act substantially different. Yes, it makes sense that a baseball with sidespin will “jump” more than one with 6-12 rotation, but how much is it really going to jump? Not to mention, how many throws have you ever seen with absolutely no sidespin?

Not sure how much baseball you have actually played, but I guarantee you that as the game gets faster better arms with the better players, the ones that are closer to a 6-12 rotation on the throw in the dirt are much easier to handle (truer hop) than a guy that throws the ball with side spin.

Yeah, and to help illustrate the validity of the point, think about what happens to a curve ball pitch in the dirt vs. a fast ball. Catchers anticipate a kick to the side on the CB. Very difficult to guess just how much to the side. Those are the ones that get away most often.

Now can we get back to helping OP?

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Originally posted by cabbagedad:
Stats,
Looks like we're going to disagree quite a bit today... and that's OK.

I suspect we’d agree on a lot more than we’d disagree on.

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I never said that. In fact, I said the opposite...
"Obviously, many IF throws can/must be made from a lower release point, but those players must posess both."
The assumption of this post has been that OP's son throws side-arm and not over the top - thus the comment by coach that "he needed to learn how to throw overhand".

Didn’t mean to imply you did. I was just saying that I’ve never, ever seen any player throw from nothing but 1 arm slot, and for that coach to say what he did, sure seems like a stretch to me. I’ve heard that said so many times over the years, even I almost believe a player can’t make an accurate and strong sidearm throw.

I suppose its all in the semantics, and understanding exactly what that coach meant.

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So, you are agreeing that you must be able to throw from the top at times. Good. Could you imagine a RF who can only throw side-arm trying to throw out a runner going 1st to 3rd on a soft base hit? No way it can be done with any consistency. Way too much tail and sail.

No, I will never agree to such an all-encompassing word as “MUST” in this context.

A throw from RF certainly would sail, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be made with consistency. But it really isn’t something that can be tested because no player would ever be given the chance to prove it could be done. This is a lot like the argument about a LH catcher. There’s a lot of myth about that too, but no way to really test it because there’s so few opportunities.

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Again, assuming true side-arm (something close to horizontal arm slot)...

College - no way he'd get that far. HS - I would only keep if last resort (We had one of these, sort of, and it became glaringly evident that he had to learn to make some throws from the top - he did but this was still his achilles). Little League - I would keep him because you don't cut little kids and this is when any decent coach would teach him to throw properly.

Don’t take this as me arguing with you, but rather as me pointing out that what you’re saying doesn’t make sense, unless bias is thrown into the mix. What you’re saying is, if there was a kid with more range than anyone available, a stronger and more accurate arm than anyone available, assuming all the other factors were equal, you wouldn’t even consider him if he threw sidearmed.

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No, but it does when it's always been done that way for a reason.

When that reason is purely anecdotal, I’m afraid I don’t put a lot of faith in it. Don’t get mad at me though, it’s a disease that comes from being a numbers guy.

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Does your son throw side-arm? If so, sorry if I've been too direct.

Why be sorry about a perfectly legitimate question? My skins way too old and thick to get bothered about something like that.

My 24 YO son hasn’t played ball in over 5 years now. However, when he did play, the last 5 years he was a PO, and did throw from a lower than “normal arm slot, with tremendous success. When he was a position player, he played 3rd base, and was always one of the best fielders from LL through JV, when they stopped him from playing the field for the HS team.

However, sometimes on tournament teams he was still put at 3rd and never lost the ability to flash some pretty fantastic leather there. I was always of the opinion that the reason he did so well there was because he was used to pitching, so to him he always had more time to make a play than on the mound. And yes, from the time he was an 8YO until he didn’t regularly play the field any longer, coaches were harping at him that he had to change his arm slot. But, it was pretty funny that he was always the starting 3b and AS in LL, through LLBL, on the Fr team, the JV team, and twice went to the Jr Olympic tournament as a pitcher and started at 3rd when he wasn’t pitching. In the end, he was very lucky that what always happened was his coaches went by results on the field, not what baseball dogma told them.

The last 5 years I’ve had the pleasure of scoring for one of the most successful and experienced coaches in all of NorCal. I have to be honest here, and say I’ve never once heard him say anything about an arm slot to an infielder, other than the fielder had to think about what he was doing when he dropped down. And we’d had IF’rs who throw from just about every conceivable angle.

I’m guessing the only real difference between us on this is on a matter of degree. I don’t think any player throws from only one arm slot, but you seem to believe its possible. No biggee. Different buts fit different seats, and that’s what makes the world go ‘round.

Thanx for discussion. I found it stimulating, and at my age, anything that’s stimulating is GREAT!!!!!

I really enjoyed reading your comments even though I didn't understand much of it. I didn't realize pitching was so technical. However, the comment one of you made regarding little league, that any good coach would teach him the correct way, was so true. That was the problem. No one ever taught him the other way. He has always thrown side-arm from the beginning. I guess at that level it didn't really matter. The highschool level is a different matter. Anyway, I have found a college pitcher (who was just hired to coach at a local highschool) who will be working with my son. He is going to work with him on making his side-arm more accurate, as well as teaching him the overhand throw. Again, thanks for all your comments.

Hi fl2015, and welcome.

I can understand your frustration. I know exactly how you feel. Signing on here is a first good step in trying to get some advice on this issue. And if you let me I will share my son's trials with you.

First, I'm curious because where we’re from playing on the summer team is not a shoe-in for the in-season spring team. Not that it's not important as it gives the coaches a better perspective on what your son can do on the field instead of a 3 day tryout prior to spring ball. This may be important to you if you are considering talking to the coach.

Ok, let me share with you about my experiences with my son, which has been a real challenge. He played on his summer JV team 2 years ago as he was entering his sophomore year and did a pretty good job on the mound. However, during the season he was used primarily as a short reliever and only pitched maybe 13 innings (I can't remember the actual total he pitched, but it was not that much) all year in an 18 game schedule. However, since I stayed out of it and kept my typically big opinionated mouth to myself around him, he maintained a great attitude throughout the year. The JV coach gave him the end of the year game ball for his patience and attitude, which my son very much appreciated. The ball is prominently displayed on our bookshelf. I told this whole story on a previous post. Jeez, was I glad I kept my opinion to myself.

However, the biggest challenge was yet to come...

As a junior we were both thrilled he made the varsity team, but little did we know he would not pitch even 1 inning or even throw one pitch from the mound all season. This included 2 - 4 game tournaments, 4 playoff games for a total of 32 games. Not once did he even warm-up during a game. Wow, what a challenge this has been.

I felt bad going to his games knowing he wouldn't play thinking this would put undue pressure on him.

Without throwing a negative spin into it I talked him into talking with the coach about going down to JV to pitch, which he eventually let him do. He pitched 9 innings in a couple of weeks and got a victory as well as a save, but when the coach called him back up he resumed his normal bench warming duties.

The assistant coach even started referring to him as the 'Starting Bucket Boy', which my son told me jokingly not thinking it tick me off. I was not the least bit amused and thought for a moment that me and this assistant lackey coach would have some words, but again, I thought better of it and kept my mouth shut, which I am glad I did because my son...and your son...has got to learn how to be their own advocate. We just have to encourage them to speak up for themselves because how else are they going to grow up to be men?

Amazingly, through all of this he has remained upbeat and positive knowing that his time will come. It's has been very inspiring to me how good he has taken it all, but it would have never happened if I did not keep my opinion to myself...at least in front of him. Because negative words are like a cancer that spreads out of control and infects the attitude and outlook impacting performance on the field.

This summer he has had lots of opportunities on the high school summer team as well a very good scout team he’s on for a combined 31 innings in 15 games so far with a 2.52 ERA and 24 strikeouts. Not too shabby for the ‘Starting Bucket Boy’.

I know now that if I would have openly voiced my negative opinions about the coach things may have turned out different because he would have developed a bad attitude.

I realize my son's story is not completed yet as is your son's, but please encourage him to learn how to overcome the challenges that are inherent in life. As I've heard it voiced many times on this board, control the things that you can (hitting, fielding and throwing) and let the rest go because we cannot do anything about it anyway. Once this approach is taken the pieces just seem to fall into place.

My best of luck to you.

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Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
I suspect we’d agree on a lot more than we’d disagree on.

I agree but this topic isn't one of 'em. We get a few kids coming into JV every year who can't make the throw accurately enough from the outfield because their elbow drops below their shoulder - causes tail and sail. Nothing anecdotal about it. Pure physics.

Congratulations on your son's success but please don't ever credit me for stimulating you .

Fortunately, while we were rambling, OP got it all figured out.

Coach Waltrip,
Nice

Fl2015,
That's perfect... found a qualified person to help your son! Nice job.

It's interesting, when our kids are in Little League, we tend to not worry about proper mechanics and expect that someone will get more specific with instruction when they get older. But we're often surprised to find that this doesn't always happen at the next level and by HS, it's often too late. It's a bit of a dilemna because we dont' want them to worry about that stuff when they're little kids but they are way better off if taught the basics early on.
Best of luck.

Fl2015,

Good luck to your son. I thought I might put another spin on your situation. Our older son played baseball up to high school. His arm slot wasn't complete sidearm, but there was enough sidearm to it that it wasn't going to be effective at a higher level. Believe me, my husband and son worked hard, but it was just his natural throwing position, and nothing they did really changed it. He was actually a fairly effective pitcher, and he could hit the ball a very long way, so he could have gone on to play HS ball as a PO and possibly DH. Our son came to the conclusion that he is a better football player, and he really loved it more. He is a starting DT, and also gets some play on the offensive line at times. He decided to get in the weight room and focus on what he is really best at. However, had he decided to go baseball son and dad had decided the best chance he had to play was to pitch and keep that bar going so he would have a DH opportunity. As they get older, pitchers primarily pitch anyway. You might want to really encourage the pitching and not look at the lack of playing time in the field as a bad thing. Although our younger son is a strong position player and hitter in high school, he has yet to see the playing field this summer. He is a pitcher. Although he would like to get in the field and hit more often, the facts are that if he plays in college it will be primarily as a pitcher. Your son might want to soul search a little to really decide what he is best at and how he best can contribute to his team, and then give it everything he has.
Again, best of luck to your son.

Sorry, keep that "bat" going.

I guess I didn't read my response well. I meant he hasn't seen the playing field as a position player. He does pitch, which is what he loves to do. Sorry. Over and out.

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"Roger that."



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Coach Waltrip:
That was a hall of fame post.

Coach Waltrip and smalltownmom: Thanks for sharing your stories. I guess this sort of thing does happen all the time. The guy who is going to be working with my son said in highschool he actually did not play for two years. He said he got cut, and another kid who could not play as well was put in. When he asked the coach why, he told him that the other kid's dad was a huge financial contributor to the team. Can't compete with that, sadly. Anyway, my friend said he played in his senior year and was offered a college scholarship. So, I will continue encouraging my son to work on the mechanics and speak up for himself. Many thanks for sharing.

It is very hard to go from the guy who is a super star to the guy who is now a bench/ role player. Different coaches have different ideas in their head ( from pre-determined opinions of a player to politics ), that can be very difficult to break. The stories in the post are all too common and it really is hard to deal with.

I was part of a recruiting class where we lost the coach who brought us to the school. Once he was gone many of us "to be starters" had a severe role change. It look a lot of pain and maturity ( aka time ) to deal with this role and be Ok with it. Of course when in a situation like this the option is always to leave the team ( well assuming it is possible which in Little League for example it is not ) but trying to still love a game that is now always giving back what you put in is very hard.

I had to see my best friend at college give up baseball because riding the bench was too hard from it. It wasn't not playing that destroyed him, it was slowly having a game that used to be his passion, slowly wane away.

When you are a bench player it is a real test to your character and perseverance. When you do get into a game and hit that game winning double, it ust feels that much better... this I know!

Ken Jacobi

Author of "Going with the Pitch: Adjusting to Baseball, School, and Life as a Division I College Athlete"