Al Goetz pitching analysis

Why did you think he was full of it?

I didn't care for his analysis. It didn't sound like he really knows what is happening when the body is throwing a ball.

In other words, what he says is bad (for the most part), I see nothing wrong with.

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It didn't sound like he really knows what is happening when the body is throwing a ball.

At risk of being redundant..explain what you mean..as in, you don't think he's over-striding or you don't think he's stopped his forward momentum by locking out his knee..or he's not over-extended on the front side...I'm not being argumentative I'm attempting to understand your position..

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Originally posted by jdfromfla:
At risk of being redundant..explain what you mean..as in, you don't think he's over-striding or you don't think he's stopped his forward momentum by locking out his knee..or he's not over-extended on the front side...I'm not being argumentative I'm attempting to understand your position..

Well I don't think he's really over striding, and I don't see that him locking out his front leg is a problem.

Yes it is stopping his forward momentum, but it is transferring that momentum up the "chain" into his throwing arm (whip action).

I don't really understand the term "being over extended on the front side". If is refering to a posture problem or being "off balance" I don't see it that way (although I will add that it does look like something weird is going on at the end of his throw but I can't say what it would be for sure because the video stops too soon).

It would be nice to see the original video at real speed AND not in a "you tube" format (so as to view it frame by frame better).

The first comments are that he turns his front hip and shoulder back as he begins his delivery. This looks minimal to me, and to me isn't a bad thing anyway. Same thing when he mentions the low elbow. I know there's been a ton of debate on this in the past, but I don't believe that a low elbow is horrible.

I also disagree that he's overstriding, and he comments that the kids weight is all committed forward. Well, to me, at the point where he makes that comment, the kid's weight should be committed forward. And he comments about the back leg being pulled through...shouldn't the powerful rotation of the delivery pull the backside through?

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Well I don't think he's really over striding, and I don't see that him locking out his front leg is a problem.

My only thoughts were that the kid was out of balance. The over-rotate at the start is an attempt to generate momentum. Interestingly enough at the end of the vid it gave you the option of watching a presentation by he who's name is unmentionable on this site (N-Y-M-A-N)and he made a comment in that video about how over striding effects rotation and as another consequence timing (Not promoting..just found it ironic). I thought the follow through was reasonable, but didn't like the presentation at the power position...I think the crux is that we don't know where this kid and the instructor were at within the process of refinement (No before or after or history at all). I don't think that the instructor was in a position of not knowing what he was talking about...it just all was an excercise in out of context thought..as to the lag leg , just not sure where the instructor thought it should be going...

I don't think that counter rotating in and of itself is a bad thing. Not sure if that's what you're implying JD, but if it causes any sort of posture problem, or timing problem, then I would say yes, it isn't something a particular kid should be doing (or at least hasn't practiced it enough to NOT be a problem).

Heck for that matter, anything that causes those issues would be a problem and should be addressed.

I feel, if it let's you get more on the ball, then by all means...do it.

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Not sure if that's what you're implying JD

I wasn't concerned about the over-rotate, just commenting on it and agree it isn't necessarily a problem, my observations usually stem from where the player is when he reaches foot-strike/power position. To me he does look like his front side is over-extended, honestly it looks like the kid is a disciple of Mills Momentum stuff and just hasn't got it quite down yet...so his balance is off a bit..this can effect timing and lose him a mph or two in his bodies attempt to recorrect balance. I'd like to see the kid now to see where it all went..just out of curiosity.

The ball was well out of his hand at the point of knee lock out. Why does momentum matter after release? The ball doesn't care what the pitcher does after release.

Mr. Goetz pitched for the Tigers. Runs Chippers baseball academy north of Atlanta.

http://10thinningbaseball.com/Instructors.html

A great instructor and a great facilty for learning.

Coach Atl, thanks for some more context. I guess it all just goes to prove that there are many methods and approaches to the art. U-Tube has the whole spectrum of folks...from the shear moron to the top of the tops. Coach Goetz wasn't selling anything..it was just a snippet of a session..hard to be a judge of his or the kids skill based on that.

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Originally posted by jdfromfla:
Coach Atl, thanks for some more context. I guess it all just goes to prove that there are many methods and approaches to the art. U-Tube has the whole spectrum of folks...from the shear moron to the top of the tops. Coach Goetz wasn't selling anything..it was just a snippet of a session..hard to be a judge of his or the kids skill based on that.

Good points, and I'm by no means any expert. I really didn't mean to smear the guy in any way. I really hoped to generate some more discussion of the things he mentioned, but like you've said, we really have no context of where this kid was prior to instruction. You certainly can't make any conclusions about Mr. Goetz based off of 2 1/2 minutes of video

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Originally posted by jdfromfla:
Coach Atl, thanks for some more context. I guess it all just goes to prove that there are many methods and approaches to the art. U-Tube has the whole spectrum of folks...from the shear moron to the top of the tops. Coach Goetz wasn't selling anything..it was just a snippet of a session..hard to be a judge of his or the kids skill based on that.

Understood. I thought it might be helpful to add some background info. They offer Dartfish for pitching and hitting, this clip looks like it was close to the facility opening with the lights still on the floor. My son has been up for hitting and his analysis has been spot on. The camps are well organized along with Braves players that stop in and work with the kids. He's a pro.

Tell us how you really feel.
I don't think the intent was to beat up on someone who isn't here to defend himself, just a discussion of what was presented on the vid...I take it you disagree with his assesment?
What is your approach? What do you see?

I pretty much agree with everything he said.

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Originally posted by jdfromfla:
Tell us how you really feel.
I don't think the intent was to beat up on someone who isn't here to defend himself, just a discussion of what was presented on the vid...I take it you disagree with his assesment?
What is your approach? What do you see?

Considering I didn't see the actual flight of the ball, it's movement or lack thereof, it's accuracy and considering it is only one pitch, I saw nothing of value. I can tell you I have watched 100s of these so-called pitching coaches and everyone of them seem to have some kind of canned "you have to do this or that" approach. the best coaches work within the individualities of the players, their own nuances, etc. This is what I have against Goetz who I have seen try to change kids who ended up in MLB...throwing exactly the same way as they did in HS.

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Originally posted by jdfromfla:
Coach Atl, thanks for some more context. Coach Goetz wasn't selling anything..it was just a snippet of a session..

Correct, not this time.

Unclean Hands

I have heard his approach from several MLB pitching coaches. His basics are very solid advice. What he teaches from what I heard and saw from the few videos I watched will help keep you healthy. High elbows and good alignment. 45% body angle before back leg kicks up. Driving to the plate and not falling off to the side. Good solid advice.

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Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I have heard his approach from several MLB pitching coaches. His basics are very solid advice. What he teaches from what I heard and saw from the few videos I watched will help keep you healthy. High elbows and good alignment. 45% body angle before back leg kicks up. Driving to the plate and not falling off to the side. Good solid advice.

I consider "solid advice" that which is built on the basis of scientific citation not Al Goetz' burbling on the musings of others.

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Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Driving to the plate and not falling off to the side. Good solid advice.

In my opinion, good momentum contributes greatly towards driving to the plate and not falling off to the side. Yet he seems to be against momentum. I find that contradictory.

You obviously have a thing for this guy. I think if you look at Tom House's views they are very similar and they were based on computer models.
What I saw and heard was limited but consistent with the professional advice that I have received over the years stating with House's pitchers edge series. The problem I find with people is that they don't understand the importance of great mechanics and ball control. The attempt to build velocity seems to blur the facts.
The snipits that he showed were good advice although some what limited.

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Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
The problem I find with people is that they don't understand the importance of great mechanics and ball control. The attempt to build velocity seems to blur the facts.

Why are these 2 things mutually exclusive?

These great mechanics you refer to, in my mind would encompass all those things (velocity, and location/ball control).

I did not say they were mutually exclusive. What I am saying is that poor mechanics are often the result of impatience to throw harder. Things like pulling off to the side before release and dropping elbows and locking the throwing elbow .

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Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I think if you look at Tom House's views they are very similar and they were based on computer models.

I have a signed copy, first 100 prints, of "Dr." House's initial book, attended his first series of lectures at Emory University. Note he has been relegated to Mr. House when firmly cajoled it was improper to place Dr. in front of your name touting biomechanical interps when your PH.D was in psychology. House had taken on himself the role of scientific analyst of biomechanics, nutrition and other non-psychological disciplines and was roundly sacked to the mat by the scientific community for that too. In short, if House is correct, and I would suggest that later in his career scientists with the proper disciplines did agree with a few of his interpretations (House later admitted to his error and engaged like-minded individuals to bolster his work)if he is correct it was part luck, part knowledge and part blind pig finds acorn. If Goetz aligns himself with House, I would say we now have two blind pigs hunting. For Goetz is as far from science as the world was pre-Galileo and a rotational planetary system.
Goetz is representative, as I have said before, of slews of wannabes who roll out lingo to impress yet never spent the time in study and conference with the proof-based world. When the Goetz' "get it right", it's pig-acorns.

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Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I did not say they were mutually exclusive. What I am saying is that poor mechanics are often the result of impatience to throw harder. Things like pulling off to the side before release and dropping elbows and locking the throwing elbow .

What is this "locking the throwing elbow"?

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Goetz is representative, as I have said before, of slews of wannabes who roll out lingo to impress yet never spent the time in study and conference with the proof-based world. When the Goetz' "get it right", it's pig-acorns.

"In short, if House is correct, and I would suggest that later in his career scientists with the proper disciplines did agree with a few of his interpretations (House later admitted to his error and engaged like-minded individuals to bolster his work)if he is correct it was part luck, part knowledge and part blind pig finds acorn."

So now that you come off as the judge, with all encompassing knowledge, what are YOUR bona-fides? Who have you taught, how many and how many made it?
You've not said anything particularly intelligent, intuitive, revolutionary or even particularly smart. It is easy to sit there and act like those you don't agree with are "bad"..just what wonderful thing have you done? If Nolan Ryan credits you with with having a huge impact on his career then your condemnation of House would seem to have a speck of validity..but not really...All you've done since you've come on here is say that everyone but you is stupid (Except for Gbreadman who said the same thing you did) and out to rip folks off..and of course the brilliant "Just throw harder"..wow I bet you have an academy full of little devestators just waiting to be drafted immediately into the bigs as soon as they turn 18.
I generally look to everyone to provide input as up until I saw your writing I felt like everyone had some small bit to add...thanks for blowing that thought...you have nothing to say or add that is positive or that adds anything but rotten negative c r a p..

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Originally posted by jdfromfla:
So now that you Poosey come off as the judge, with all encompassing knowledge,

If you want conversation, start without projections. You wanted my opinion, you got it. You don't like it, don't ask for it.

I have never nor will ever claim any such knowledge. MOF, science-based learning is an assemblage of opinions as there exists no real 100% proofs in the first place.

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what are YOUR bona-fides? Who have you taught, how many and how many made it?

Hundreds and I wouldn't for an instance claim that this is necessarily a bona-fide. Take Bum SR. and Bum Jr. Bum Jr. made it in spite of ill and distinctly inaccurate advice...again, pigs-acorns. Talent is the first pre-requisite to being "successful" in terms as you suggest, he who works with talent will find more acorns. Since this is a Goetz discussion, Goetz benefits from his long-standing association with one of baseball premier' asswipes, East Cobb baseball HC. Note the Pope HS pitcher in discussion, guess who bought the lights for Pope HS?

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You've not said anything particularly intelligent, intuitive, revolutionary or even particularly smart.

Then my response to your flame has ended.

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Hundreds and I wouldn't for an instance claim that this is necessarily a bona-fide. Take Bum SR. and Bum Jr. Bum Jr. made it in spite of ill and distinctly inaccurate advice...again, pigs-acorns. Talent is the first pre-requisite to being "successful" in terms as you suggest, he who works with talent will find more acorns. Since this is a Goetz discussion, Goetz benefits from his long-standing association with one of baseball premier' asswipes, East Cobb baseball HC. Note the Pope HS pitcher in discussion, guess who bought the lights for Pope HS?

You are an angry man..with an axe to grind.
I agree trained hundreds is no bona fide...When asked to substantiate any of the comments you've made, you've just been more critical of this guy who can't defend himself and Tom House and of course Bum Sr...You've only attacked them, said they are wrong and state that scientific citation is the only valid advice (Though you offer none to controvert what they've suggested..just they s u c k cause you said)..then turn around and make a gereral assertion with no scientific citation to back up the claim.
It is at the very least you can do is illuminate just why it is that you make these claims and assertions. To be able to simply attack these people and not be challenged would surrender the forums to these sorts of intimidation and negativity, you can bet I won't be accepting that sort of behavior without stepping up and saying you are wrong...I am just completely saddened that you've ended response to me..couldn't have made my day any brighter.

Poosey DR John Gleddie is a personal friend and a coauthor of the House/Nolan books. He met them while he worked for the Rangers as a pitching trainer. He is still friends with them and he has a doctorate in Biomecchnics. I listen to what he tells me. When my son visits him he goes through his mechanics and they are very similar to the snippits that AG stated. I am sure he got what he knows from a ligit source. Non of us invented good mechanics.
I am always concerned when some one gets over heated about a topic like this and calls the guy a flake. I don't hate Marshall even though I strongly dissagree with him. I just can't see the personal attack. It is not like he is teaching things that will hurt a pitcher.