Am I being overpitched

Every arm is different. If it it hurts, you are overworking it.

quote:

Originally posted by CAVPRIDE_UKNOW:
Im a 15 yr old sophmore with a question about pitching. It was a discussion on the chat for a little bit last night. I usually throw from 9-12 innings a weekend. My arm doesnt hurt, it is sore but if you pitch your arm should be sore. If my arm doesnt feel like pitching i tell my coach no. I have always been someone that can pitch alot of innings and still produce. I think it is mainly because i pace myself and not go all out on velocity and can then throw my hardest in the tough situations.

So am i being overpitched or am i just a good endurance pitcher?

You're young and probably haven't really experienced real arm or shoulder trouble of the major variety it sounds. I wouldn't say soreness is a good sign in any arm. It should just be tired. Nine to twelve innings in what is probably less than 48 hours sounds way in excess to me.

If your arm is often sore from pitching, I personally think you are probably pitching too much and conditioning yourself too little.

I obviously don't know you personally, but you might be paying a high price for your 15 year old glory. One thing you need to think carefully about, stud: Beyond chronic soreness, most guys don't have many obvious warning signs that they are pitching too much for their individual functional strength.

During the early HS years, I think the emphasis should be on conditioning, development of optimal mechanics, learning pitcher's strategies, and reasonable levels of in-season competition--certainly not year-round pitching in competitive situations.

Just my opinion...

I have had a bad injury before, i have slightly tore my rotator cuff but that was on not throwing a pitch because of a time being called. I just held up and it didnt feel right.

I understand what yall are saying and i appreciate it. I got one more tourny left and then im doin my usuall offseason work outs.

Thanks for the input guys

What kind of a pitch count are you running up?

Are you pitching on consecutive days?

Your arm doesn't have to be sore. Tired after an outing? Yes. Sore? Doesn't have to be.

Regardless 9-12 innings per weekend is not wise.

Cav,
It doesn't seem like a lot but one thing you must understand, injuries are accumulative, whatever you are doing now may not show up for years, or maybe on your next pitch. That's why it's important to be careful when you are YOUNG, especially since you have had a previous injury. A good point was made, your conditioning and training is important.

You also asked last night about catching and pitching. With those many innings, catching wouldn't be a good idea in my opinion.

I understand alot better, my dad wasnt sure whether it was good idea and he told me to ask before he said something that was wrong. I'm goin to take this advice wisley because i beleive i can go to the next level.

Thanks everybody for your input and it makes alot of sense.

It's not the innings but the pitch counts. Go to ASMI on the web for some good guidelines.

Here is a thread from them that might help out.

http://asmiforum.proboards21.com/index.cgi?action=displ...al&thread=1143741021

For arm conditioning check out jaeger sports at:

www.jaegersports.com

As noted by some of the posters being safe side is better than being too aggressive.

My son's pitching coach has pointed out to me that that in some cases arm issues start to develop once you start to throw at higher velocities. For the technical folks out there I suspect it is a V2 issue.

Good luck!

Sounds to me that...deep down...you may already feel that you are...if that's the case then scale back...like the advice you've already been given it's not how many innings it's how many pitches...if you have impeccable control and are getting 10-12 pitch innings as opposed to 15-20 pitch innings then a 7 inning complete game and a 1-2 inning close of a game 3 days later (it would be a pen day anyway) shouldn't be a problem. At 15 you obviously have good stuff for your coach to put you out that often...YOU need to make sure that YOU feel all right when taking the ball...being a hero is admirable and there's lots of talk of gamers who want the ball every chance they can....you hear about that on TV...guys who are making a living playing...being a stud at 15 does no good if by 18 you max out...at 15 concentrate on refining your mechanics...learning a couple different fastballs and a solid change and hitting locations ...throw quality innings not quantity of innings..hope this helps and good luck

I am with Rick---you sound like you think you are being overused---

This is a great example for all HS pitchers---only you know your body and can be aware of what is wrong-- we tell our players--you get a twinge let us know---it may be nothing but we won't push it---we chart pitches and pitch counts and we take precautions--- at the HS age there is no need to push it

If someone ever calls time in the middle of your delivery throw the ball anyway. DO NOT STOP your motion, it leads to nothing but injuries.

Yea i know that no shortstop lol. My dad said if that happens that is a free shot at the umpire that granted time.

I hope you're kidding CAVPRIDE. Do that and you're going to get one tiny strike zone after that. As for pitching 9-12 innings per weekend I personally feel that's a lot for a 15 y.o. My own son, who long-tosses and throws year-round, if he did that his arm would not be sore..he'd feel like pitching the next day. But I wouldn't let him. Just get some off days between performances.. no back-to-back stuff.

A properly conditioned arm is never sore. After pitching make as many negative throws as you did pitches in the game. Cosider getting Ron Wolforth"s Combat Pitching program. The man is a pitching genius.

quote:

A properly conditioned arm is never sore.

This is not a fact. Pitching is bad for your arm, and even "properly conditioned" arms get sore.

If the umpire grants a late time call to the batter im not gonna throw at the umpire even thought he prolly shouldnt have called time.

Yes i know alot of you are goin to disagree with me and say its wrong but im gonna throw at the batter if a late time is called. Not necessarily trying to hit him but im gonna get it pretty close. It usually gets under the batters skin and i come back with some off speed pitches and i usually get him out.

quote:

Originally posted by Rock 44:
If the umpire grants a late time call to the batter im not gonna throw at the umpire even thought he prolly shouldnt have called time.

Yes i know alot of you are goin to disagree with me and say its wrong but im gonna throw at the batter if a late time is called. Not necessarily trying to hit him but im gonna get it pretty close. It usually gets under the batters skin and i come back with some off speed pitches and i usually get him out.

If the umpire calls time, then time is called. Don't worry if you thought he probably shouldn't have called it. There are many saavy umpires out there that will eject you in a heartbeat if they even suspect you throwing at hitter in a situation like this. I'm one of them. No warning at all.

The umpire is doing his job. You just do your job and pitch and not worry about when you think time should be called or not.

And tell us, Jimi, how do you know if the pitcher intentionally brushed back the batter or if he just missed with his location?

That kind of quick on the trigger umpiring has no place in baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
And tell us, Jimi, how do you know if the pitcher intentionally brushed back the batter or if he just missed with his location?

That kind of quick on the trigger umpiring has no place in baseball.

It's called experience.

Get it. Experience. Are You Experienced?

And throwing at people at the amatuer level is as bush as it gets. Admitting to throwing at a batter that may have his guard relaxed is about stupid as it gets and has no place in baseball.

No, it's called bull. Unless the pitcher is an idiot in how he acts, you can't know for sure.

There is a time & place for brushbacks, even in HS ball. Not necessarily in the situation described by R44. But there are appropriate occasions.

There is no place for blues who think they are omniscient and omnipotent, however.

quote:

But there are appropriate occasions.

Please feel free to describe some of these occasions. It would be benefical for our HS pitchers reading this forum to know when you feel its "appropriate".

Rock 44,

I don't see nothing wrong with coming in on a hitter! Throwing at him and brushing him back are two different things to me...You stated that your not trying to hit him, no harm no foul... 2 things a hitter hates is being taken out of their rythm and a guy who comes in on them..

Word of advise maybe before you come in.. Try to quick pitch him if he pulls that on you. If he doesnt like when you take too much time, he'll hate it worse when your rushing him. If he keeps it up then it might be time to come in.

quote:

Originally posted by SPARKY1:
Rock 44,

I don't see nothing wrong with coming in on a hitter! Throwing at him and brushing him back are two different things to me...You stated that your not trying to hit him, no harm no foul... 2 things a hitter hates is being taken out of their rythm and a guy who comes in on them..

Word of advise maybe before you come in.. Try to quick pitch him if he pulls that on you. If he doesnt like when you take too much time, he'll hate it worse when your rushing him. If he keeps it up then it might be time to come in.

He can't deemax, because Texan doesn't understand how the National Federation of High School (NFHS) rules work. If the umpire thinks the batter asked for time before the pitcher started his motion to the plate and if the umpire grants it. Guess what, time is granted, whether anybody on the defense agrees or not. That doesn't give any pitcher in any rule set the right to take a free shot at a batter.

Now if Texan can name one, and I repeat just one, high school coach in the state of Texas who teaches his pitchers to throw at batters in any circumstances, feel free to let me know. I will kindly pass his name along to the members of TASO whose chapter work his games. I sure they would forward the information along to him. There would also be many tenured coaches in the great state who would also be appalled by such statements and actions.

SPARKY1-You need to confide a little more in the rule book yourself, as a quick pitch is defined as an illegal pitch and a ball is added to the count. It is also a balk with runners on base. Thought you might like to know before you attempt this again in a game.

Jimi,

Never had it called in my life... But I beleive you!
lol...

quote:

Originally posted by SPARKY1:
Jimi,

Never had it called in my life... But I beleive you!
lol...

Define quick pitch.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimi Hendrix:
He can't deemax, because Texan doesn't understand how the National Federation of High School (NFHS) rules work. If the umpire thinks the batter asked for time before the pitcher started his motion to the plate and if the umpire grants it. Guess what, time is granted, whether anybody on the defense agrees or not. That doesn't give any pitcher in any rule set the right to take a free shot at a batter.

Now if Texan can name one, and I repeat just one, high school coach in the state of Texas who teaches his pitchers to throw at batters in any circumstances, feel free to let me know. I will kindly pass his name along to the members of TASO whose chapter work his games. I sure they would forward the information along to him. There would also be many tenured coaches in the great state who would also be appalled by such statements and actions.

I'm fairly well acquainted with Fed, thank you.

You are trying to wriggle away from the issue by changing the subject. Perhaps that is because you can't give any viable answer to the question I asked. I will repeat the question for you one last time. And my question was regardless of what the situation might be. Forget the time out stuff.

How do you know when a pitcher is trying to brush back or even bean a batter? At any time, and under any situation.

Unless he has mouthed off to the batter or does something stupid after throwing the pitch. How can you get in his head and know his intent? How do you know if the pitch just missed (and you can miss up & in just as surely as you can miss low and away) or if it was deliberate?

You don't. Your ego (and you sound like one of those blues who thinks the game revolves around him) may say you do. But you don't. But yet you are going to toss the pitcher without a warning. What a sad job of umpiring.

That is my question. You merely throw dust in the air by talking about time outs.

When is a brushback appropriate, dm? How about when the batter is hanging his toes on the plate for starters. And I thought you claimed to be a pitcher?? Intentionally come into a base with your spikes knee high and injure a player. See if you don't get a message sent the next time you are at bat.

And jh if you think that no HS coach has ever told his pitcher to brush back or plunk a batter, then you must have not spent much time at all around HS baseball. In other words, you are not experienced. How naive...

What a pair. Perhaps they are one in the same.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:

quote:

Originally posted by Jimi Hendrix:
He can't deemax, because Texan doesn't understand how the National Federation of High School (NFHS) rules work. If the umpire thinks the batter asked for time before the pitcher started his motion to the plate and if the umpire grants it. Guess what, time is granted, whether anybody on the defense agrees or not. That doesn't give any pitcher in any rule set the right to take a free shot at a batter.

Now if Texan can name one, and I repeat just one, high school coach in the state of Texas who teaches his pitchers to throw at batters in any circumstances, feel free to let me know. I will kindly pass his name along to the members of TASO whose chapter work his games. I sure they would forward the information along to him. There would also be many tenured coaches in the great state who would also be appalled by such statements and actions.

I'm fairly well acquainted with Fed, thank you.

You are trying to wriggle away from the issue by changing the subject. Perhaps that is because you can't give any viable answer to the question I asked. I will repeat the question for you one last time. And my question was regardless of what the situation might be. Forget the time out stuff.

How do you know when a pitcher is trying to brush back or even bean a batter? At any time, and under any situation.

Unless he has mouthed off to the batter or does something stupid after throwing the pitch. How can you get in his head and know his intent? How do you know if the pitch just missed (and you can miss up & in just as surely as you can miss low and away) or if it was deliberate?

You don't. Your ego (and you sound like one of those blues who thinks the game revolves around him) may say you do. But you don't. But yet you are going to toss the pitcher without a warning. What a sad job of umpiring.

That is my question. You merely throw dust in the air by talking about time outs.

When is a brushback appropriate, dm? How about when the batter is hanging his toes on the plate for starters. And I thought you claimed to be a pitcher?? Intentionally come into a base with your spikes knee high and injure a player. See if you don't get a message sent the next time you are at bat.

And jh if you think that no HS coach has ever told his pitcher to brush back or plunk a batter, then you must have not spent much time at all around HS baseball. In other words, you are not experienced. How naive...

What a pair. Perhaps they are one in the same.

If we are one and the same, at least we have a clue. If you are as up to snuff with FED as you claim, you would know that a runner is not required to slide, but if he does, it must be legal. Coming in with your spikes high is an illegal slide and the runner is declared out. It could also lead to malicious contact, which is an automatic ejection and the ball becomes dead immediately.

You're right, I don't read minds. However, my experience has taught me over the years to read body language very well, thank you. There is no need for players at the high school level to police themselves with all the safety rules in place. I'll take care of that when the time comes. And believe me, I will.

If a batter chooses to stand close to the plate, he has to do so within the rules. Thus, the reason lines are drawn for boxes. I will enforce the rules that apply equally for both teams, in case you have forgotten that is how it is done.

You didn't answer my question of just one name as per my request. If you still insist on grasping for straws, I suggest you join an umpire association. This is the best time of year as meetings are about to kick off. It will also give you ample time to purchase the very costly equipment and uniforms which come with the territory. At the end of the season, you might have broke even, monetary wise.

The call's yours. What's it gonna be?

You know yall have far went away from the topic but i have to say that all the points yall make is vague.

An umpire wont see everything and i think he is saying and umpire will miss a high cleat and alot of other things b.c. the umpire has to see other parts of the park also. Im not defending him but i sorta get what he is saying. I have been in games where the umpires are oblivious to whats going on in the the game around them(not saying you are one) and the other team can be very disrespectuful. and instead of yellin or goin in cleats high on there player you get that curve ball that didnt curve and give him a lil bump on the bump. Im not saying it is always something you do but when you get that team that is taking out players with dirty slides, and other lil things and the ump aint doin nothing about it sometimes you have to show your not imtimidated. Im not sayin throw as hard as you can and take the guys head off but you get that time you put an offspeed pitch on a behind. If they cant handle a 50-60 mph pitch to butt then he is playing a wrong sport.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimi Hendrix
If we are one and the same, at least we have a clue. If you are as up to snuff with FED as you claim, you would know that a runner is not required to slide, but if he does, it must be legal. Coming in with your spikes high is an illegal slide and the runner is declared out. It could also lead to malicious contact, which is an automatic ejection and the ball becomes dead immediately.

Amazing. You think just because a rule exists, it will never be broken? Or that the infraction will always be called? Have you ever even attended a ballgame? I've seen bloody knees on second baggers and shortstops. Seen the fielder have to leave the game. And seen the rule-breaking baserunner still standing on second when play resumed.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimi Hendrix
You're right, I don't read minds. However, my experience has taught me over the years to read body language very well, thank you. There is no need for players at the high school level to police themselves with all the safety rules in place. I'll take care of that when the time comes. And believe me, I will.

So you do think you can read minds.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimi Hendrix
If a batter chooses to stand close to the plate, he has to do so within the rules. Thus, the reason lines are drawn for boxes. I will enforce the rules that apply equally for both teams, in case you have forgotten that is how it is done.

I must repeat, have you ever attended a ballgame? And were your eyes open? You don't even know what the term "hanging his toes on the plate" means?? Amazing. A batter can crowd the plate, and hang over it, while still being legally within the box.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimi Hendrix
You didn't answer my question of just one name as per my request.

For someone who is supposedly an umpire, you show an incredible lack of knowledge about how the game is actually played. I have no compulsion to share with you the names of HS coaches who have talked with me about sending messages to batters. Besides, you can read minds, so you already know who they are.

Some will tell their pitcher, if necessary. Some expect their pitchers to know when to send a message. And others do not do so. But for you to claim that none do so just shows your lack of knowledge and experience.

Some blues can recite the rules, but know very little of the game. But these types are most often only LL blues. Not so common to see them calling HS ball. But apparently not impossible. It is just laughable.


Cavpride, on the other hand, has obviously played the game and knows the reality of how things work. Rather than just the theoretical world of the rulebook.


jh, people reveal a great deal about their knowledge of the game - or lack thereof - in their posts. You're doing a great job of it.

I would like to be there when you toss a pitcher for a brushback pitch on a batter who is hanging his toes on the plate (oops, perhaps I need to explain that term again). What an interesting conversation that coach will later have with your assignor.

The last word is yours. For my part, I think all the salient points have been made clear at this point.

Texan


It is not a usual thing but I am with you on this one

thetexanguy

quote:

And I thought you claimed to be a pitcher??

I was a pitcher.
Its not like Im a scorekeeper/non-pitcher trying to give advice on pitching. That would be irresponsible on my part, and unfair to readers.

Thanks for your post, they are appreciated.

Texan,

Again, you show you just don't get it by trying to belittle me. I don't know what you're out to prove, but total lack of knowledge of the rules and how they are applied at the high school level is quite apparate. Your catch phrase, "hanging toes" doesn't mean squat to me. Batter can hang over all he wants. If he gets hit with a pitch in the strike zone, he stays at the plate with a strike added to his count. Now, I don't recall ever seeing this at any level, so you're still twisting words that ever came out of my mouth.

Suggest you also get familiar with a rule book and know how the Force Play Slide Rule (FPSR) actually works. There are times contact with the fielder is perfectly legal, no matter how violent in nature it may be. As long as the fielder is contacted in a certain area and the slide is legal, you will see the runner remain at the base. FPSR is in effect for all bases (2B, 3B, HP).

I knew you couldn't name a coach because, well you don't know one. Say what you like about me, but don't call me a liar, liar. I know exactly what my assignor will tell a coach that gives him a call. My mind reading ability will come in fine in that capacity.

It's become painfully obvious you don't understand pitching inside, brush back, or throwing at a hitter. I very much know the difference and how to enforce unsportsmanlike conduct. Just so you know, I have never had to eject a pitcher for throwing at batters, because I just haven't seen it at the amatuer level. Not something that coaches at that level endorse, if they're smart.

Feel free to keep on rambling, as it seems to be what you do best, Mr Evasive. Personel attacks aside, you sound like one of those guys that sit in a folding chair and umpire the game from behind the fence and demand a Major League strike zone. Well guess what, they'll get one when they get to the Major Leagues.

PS Texan U R PHUNNI........

PSS CAV PRIDE....If you're going to throw at somebody, at least bring your best heat. Only message that sends is that you're too scared to really do the deed. If you get ejected, don't let it be on some wimpy change. Throwing at a hitter, is still throwing at a hitter, it doesn't matter what the pitch. No matter how much Texan blitters away, most of us know the difference. Experience, experience, experience.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimi Hendrix:
I knew you couldn't name a coach because, well you don't know one.

A correction - you confused "couldn't" with "wouldn't".

Hope you get to know the game one tenth as well as you know the rules.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
I was a pitcher.

Then perhaps you can tell us when you feel that a brushback is appropriate.

Texanguy

quote:

Then perhaps you can tell us when you feel that a brushback is appropriate

Not sure what it would have to do with "Am I being overpitched." Maybe, the OP faces alot of hitters that stand on top of the plate causing him to throw excess brushbacks, which in turn break down his arm.
You could start a new thread titled "How Texan teaches high schoolers brushbacks!" Start it by telling these kids to knock each other down if they are:

1. to close to the plate.

I dont want to take the glory of your next thread, so I will leave it to you to fill in the rest.

Interesting, like jh you don't answer or even address the question.

Had you read this entire thread, you would know that it took a turn when a poster talked about sending a message to a batter. You would also know I was not the one who started the thread down a different path. I merely responded to a ridiculous statement by jh.

You two sure seem an awful lot alike...

quote:

You two sure seem an awful lot alike...

This is hilarious coming from Stardad/Texan.
Your IP address was a perfect match.

Im not answering your question because I dont teach kids to throw at each other, not because your question is sooo deep and insightful. What do you have "Texan Son" (its wierd how you talk of your son in the third person anyway, just say "my son" please) do when his brushback fails to get a hitter with "his toes on the plate" to back off? Appropriate time for a bench clearing brawl maybe? Whats plan B?

quote:

You would also know I was not the one who started the thread down a different path. I merely responded to a ridiculous statement by jh.

.........No tattling please. Its against to HSBBW man law. Thank you for your future compliance.

LOL

Well I'll be! StarDad!

LOL

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
This is hilarious coming from Stardad/Texan.
Your IP address was a perfect match.

Pathetic try, not even close to a cigar. Is parroting the best you can do? Surely not. Come on now.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
Im not answering your question because I dont teach kids to throw at each other, not because your question is sooo deep and insightful. What do you have "Texan Son" ... do when his brushback fails to get a hitter with "his toes on the plate" to back off? Appropriate time for a bench clearing brawl maybe? Whats plan B?

Texan Son has never had to resort to plan B.

At least you finally answered a question. Proud of you.

By the time kids are in HS, they should have learned respect for the game and for the other players. If not, they should be taught it.

Hope you/jimi have a great little jam session together. You two sound so much alike.

Enjoy.