Am I right

Nope. Appeal (timing) play. Not a force. Run scores.

Sorry but you are wrong. That is not a force play at first. A force play has a specific definition. It is a non-verbal appeal play (you are appealing the runner did not tag up) and thus a timing play. If the runner crossed the plate prior to the appeal then score the run.

quote:

Originally posted by NavyUmp:
If the runner crossed the plate prior to the appeal then score the run.

I think that's the key. If the appeal was made prior to the runner crossing the plate, run doesn't score. If it's made after he crosses, run scores. I believe a force out only applies to runners being forced to advance, not going back to a base.

My two cents worth

1. When a batter/runner is out before reaching first, all forces are removed.

2. A runner is always forced forward never in reverse.

3. It's called a "time" play. Not "timing" play. ( I know this is picking boggers, but it is correct)

quote:

Originally posted by Forest Ump:
reverse.

3. It's called a "time" play. Not "timing" play. ( I know this is picking boggers, but it is correct)

Friendly warning...when two of us brought this up earlier we were accused of being an@l, self-important and probably sh!tty umpires who were just posing as knowlegeable.

Welcome to the group, and if you insist on joining demonstrating any level of formal training, wear your flak jacket.

Formal training = good

Arrogance = annoying

quote:

Originally posted by ironhorse:

Arrogance = annoying

You used an improper term and you were corrected. Hopefully, you learned from it and won't make that mistake again.

You corrected a poster who thought a retouch appeal was a force. I'm sure he learned from it. Were you being arrogant/annoying?

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by Forest Ump:
reverse.

3. It's called a "time" play. Not "timing" play. ( I know this is picking boggers, but it is correct)

Friendly warning...when two of us brought this up earlier we were accused of being an@l, self-important and probably sh!tty umpires who were just posing as knowlegeable.

Welcome to the group, and if you insist on joining demonstrating any level of formal training, wear your flak jacket.

Jimmy it had nothing to do with you being An*l, self-important and being a ****ty umpire...it was all about presentation... Forest... just states a correction on terminology without making an a$$whole comment along with his correction... so get over yourself..

quote:

Originally posted by TX-Ump74:

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by Forest Ump:
reverse.

3. It's called a "time" play. Not "timing" play. ( I know this is picking boggers, but it is correct)

Friendly warning...when two of us brought this up earlier we were accused of being an@l, self-important and probably sh!tty umpires who were just posing as knowlegeable.

Welcome to the group, and if you insist on joining demonstrating any level of formal training, wear your flak jacket.

Jimmy it had nothing to do with you being An*l, self-important and being a ****ty umpire...

You're correct, it doesn't, but the accusations were made nonetheless.

My comment regarding the correction, (and if you'll remember, I did not make the correction) was directed to Dash, who I knew would understand the sentiment I expressed. A couple of individuals who neither understood the sentiment nor were part of the conversation I was having with Dash, decided to take umbrage.

It is with that in mind that I jokingly warned Forest.

quote:

It is with that in mind that I warned Forest. There are folks here who see corrections of common errors and signs training as red meat

Jimmy....you are the best! Run Forest Run! And hopefully all us American umpires on this site love some Red Meat every now and then!

quote:

Originally posted by otownmike:

Jimmy....you are the best!

Flattery will get you nowhere.

this is a very interesting topic..My son plays 12 U so I admit I am scratching my head with some of the terminolgy here.

this play was referred to as a non verbal appeal ? what does that mean ?

later it was indicated that if the appeal was made before the run crossed the plate, the run doen't score ? does that mean if the 1st base runner is out at 1st before the runner crosses the plate, no run ?

what is defined as an appeal ?

sorry for my ignorance on these finer points of the rules.

quote:

Originally posted by FanForLife:
this is a very interesting topic..My son plays 12 U so I admit I am scratching my head with some of the terminolgy here.

Not a problem; we'll go through your questions one-by-one. I'm going to change the order a bit, since some are foundations for other answers.

quote:

Originally posted by FanForLife:
what is defined as an appeal ?

An appeal is an action of the defense to get a runner out because of a running infraction he committed, such as failure to tag up on a caught fly ball or missing a base. It can be done by tagging the runner that committed the infraction or the base that was the spot of the infraction, and in NFHS rules only (which is what most high school games use) a verbal appeal can be made during a dead ball immediately following the action in which the alleged infraction happened.

quote:

Originally posted by FanForLife:
this play was referred to as a non verbal appeal ? what does that mean ?

A non-verbal appeal is one that is done implicitly and it is obvious for the reason of the defensive action, such as throwing to the base from which a runner failed to tag up as he is rushing back to it. Other, non-obvious appeals must be accompanied by a verbal declaration of the runner being appealed (if the base is tagged) or the base of the infraction (if the runner is tagged,) and the nature of the infraction.

quote:

Originally posted by FanForLife:
later it was indicated that if the appeal was made before the run crossed the plate, the run doen't score ? does that mean if the 1st base runner is out at 1st before the runner crosses the plate, no run ?

With one exception, appeals are time plays, and treated just as any other out for the purposes of scoring; that is, if it is the third out, and occurs before the runner scores, the run does not count, and if it occurs after, the run does score. The exception is if the appeal is for a runner missing the base to which he is forced; at the appeal, it is still considered a force out.

There is one additional potential consequence on an appeal that is unrelated to time play/force play. If the third (or subsequent out) is made on an appeal of a runner that has scored, no following runners may score.

Let's say that with bases loaded and 2 out, the batter rips a bases-clearing double. The runner from third misses home plate, and the defense appeals after all action has ceased. The appeal is the third out, and no runners score.

If we go with the same setup, but this time the runner from third does not miss the plate, and the runner from second does, upon proper appeal, there are three out and one run scores (the runner from third, as the runner from second is out and the runner from first cannot legally score.)

quote:

Originally posted by FanForLife:
sorry for my ignorance on these finer points of the rules.

No apology necessary. Wisdom is knowing what you don't know. At least you asked, so you can correct other parents on your kid's teams when the umpire is right and they aren't.

Excellent job, Matt.

agreed jimmy....congrats Matt that was a perfect answer

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:

quote:

Originally posted by ironhorse:

Arrogance = annoying

You used an improper term and you were corrected. Hopefully, you learned from it and won't make that mistake again.

You corrected a poster who thought a retouch appeal was a force. I'm sure he learned from it. Were you being arrogant/annoying?

Uh...I wasn't offended nor being arrogant (at least i sure wasn't meaning to). Not sure where you're coming from. Touchy group.

Ohhhh...I gotcha dash. I was replying to the All Knowing One (aka Jimmy03). He implied posters here didn't like umpires with formal training or somesuch.

My point was I don't like people who display unabashed arrogance. I sure don't mind being corrected or learning new things, believe me. that's why I come to the umpire's forum.

Matt13;

thanks for the detailed explantion, i really appreciate it.