American Legion Rules

Because some Legion teams were using rosters wholly or nearly wholly composed of college freshmen that attended a nearby school, and some were bringing in 19-year-old ringers claiming that they had moved out of their parents' homes (providing sham addresses in the team's area.)

While it may be unfortunate for those few that legitimately have the opportunity to play Legion for the first time after graduation, this issue was of far greater importance than the impact the rule has on those few.

Here's the second layer of your answer:

When this problem was discovered, there was a push to not allow college freshmen to play at all. Upon realization that that would be the death knell for many teams in an already-suffering program, this solution was reached. It not only allows and rewards players playing for their home team in HS, it creates an incentive for those who would choose other programs over Legion with the knowledge that their options are severely limited after their freshman year.

College ringers in Legion? Any college player worth anything talent wise should be playing in a college summer baseball program or a semi pro league. A talented college player playing Legion should be ashamed of himself. He's playing summer ball with high school kids.

RJM posted:

College ringers in Legion? Any college player worth anything talent wise should be playing in a college summer baseball program or a semi pro league. A talented college player playing Legion should be ashamed of himself. He's playing summer ball with high school kids.

Most college players are going to be much better than a roster of HS players. This wasn't about guys that are able to play in college summer leagues--these are the guys that are capable college players but have to find their own summer ball. And in areas where Legion is still big, it's still big and that's where these problems were. It's not rec ball in those areas--it's where scouts go.

If the player must play for the team nearest his parents' domicile, what difference does it make whether he previously played?  Parents aren't going to relocate just so their kid can play for a specific Legion team.  I can understand the concern over improper recruiting and sham addresses, but that seems to be handled by having to play for the team nearest to the parents' domicile.

RJM posted:

College ringers in Legion? Any college player worth anything talent wise should be playing in a college summer baseball program or a semi pro league. A talented college player playing Legion should be ashamed of himself. He's playing summer ball with high school kids.

There are not nearly enough summer league spots for the college freshmen that want to play summer ball.  This is especially true for the DII, DIII, and JUCO guys.  For many, Legion is the only option.

Regarding college ringers - our local legion team has 7 legit freshman (we have no jr. legion team), so playing against these young men from college is a challenge for the most part no matter how you slice it.

The one college player we do have didn't play college baseball (he's attending a big D1 school for an education). 

Our local legion team has had college freshmen come back and play....even though they don't play baseball in college.  They were very good small town baseball players who didn't get or didn't want to play college baseball, but want one more summer of organized ball.  No "ringers"....just local guys who want to get on the field one more summer.  Legion baseball has taken a beating here in Ohio due to the fact that there are so many college summer teams.  When I was younger, the Legion team had almost ALL college kids....and was very, very good baseball.  Now it's composed of HS kids (some who just finished their freshman year)....and in a lot of cases isn't even up to the level of some area HS teams.  The biggest issue is pitching.....the top kids tend to be snapped up and go to travel programs....leaving younger, inexperienced kids to pitch legion.  It's not uncommon to see multiple 10-9 games over the course of a week....just due to the pitching issue. 

structuredoc posted:

If the player must play for the team nearest his parents' domicile, what difference does it make whether he previously played?  Parents aren't going to relocate just so their kid can play for a specific Legion team.  I can understand the concern over improper recruiting and sham addresses, but that seems to be handled by having to play for the team nearest to the parents' domicile.

There is no way of validating that the parents' address is real. The reason this becomes an issue for freshmen is that most states (departments) use the concept of a home school for each team--thus the player's address is irrelevant in HS and only becomes an issue as a college freshman. A new player to Legion could put any address he wanted and there would be no way of verifying it was legitimate (and no history to support that he lived there before the season.)

I understand the reasoning. My son played Legion for a couple of years here in Ohio. His legion team would not accept graduates or college freshmen. Legion was for players in the HS program. They did not want to take,  debelopment opportunities away from HS players. We had a few other programs in our area that did accept college Freshman from other teams like ours that did not accept them. Guess which teams advanced to state every year. They also played many ofthe top tier Travel teams in our area. I think this team has now lost their Legion affiliation and now just does straight travel. 

The summer after his Freshman year my son had two choices. A local college leaguethat competes in the AAABA or his own travel team. The years before he graduated and moved on to college, his trabel team would always play one or two games against these teams, and they always crushed them. So he chose his old travelbteam because they faved better competition. The legion team that accepted college freshmen also reached out, but he chose to stay with his trabel team, for one last hurrah. 

RJM posted:

College ringers in Legion? Any college player worth anything talent wise should be playing in a college summer baseball program or a semi pro league. A talented college player playing Legion should be ashamed of himself. He's playing summer ball with high school kids.

One of your many dumb comments.  

Speaking of Legion ball, I was remarking to my son's Legion coach that I hope in the next 10 yrs that the American Legion program will grow to its glory days as more and more parents become disenchanted with the false promises made by travel and tournament organizations.  

lionbaseball posted:

Speaking of Legion ball, I was remarking to my son's Legion coach that I hope in the next 10 yrs that the American Legion program will grow to its glory days as more and more parents become disenchanted with the false promises made by travel and tournament organizations.  

That's going to be largely dependent on state HS rules. Some are too strict to allow the circumstances for this to happen and need some...maneuvering to get around them. Mine, where Legion is king in the summer, generally means that there needs to be a second competent head coach in the area independent of the school, as HS coaches cannot coach teams in the off-season. It works because it had worked before the decline of Legion ball (which is hitting us, just not as hard) and the institutional inertia is there. It won't work in states where Legion has already declined and have similar rules because there isn't a strong framework in place to make it happen.

lionbaseball posted:

RJM posted:

College ringers in Legion? Any college player worth anything talent wise should be playing in a college summer baseball program or a semi pro league. A talented college player playing Legion should be ashamed of himself. He's playing summer ball with high school kids.

One of your many dumb comments.  

Was this really necessary? (That's a rhetorical question.)

That's oK Matt. I consider anything Lion posts to be irrelevant. He's a troll. He lives to be antagonistic.

Legion Ball is virtually non-existent in baseball-hotbed states, where kids play the MOST baseball... Where there are probably more kids playing baseball than all 46-other states combined...

- California (52-Teams)
- Florida (13-Teams)
- Georgia (9-Teams)
- Texas (13-Teams)

California is a big place, when you only have 52 teams in the entire state, that's next to nothing...

It's more than probable I can find 52 18u Travel teams within Central Florida alone...

It's unfortunate that such a long-standing organization cannot regain the stature in these states it had 25-30 years ago... If they could make inroads in these states, it could, over a short period - I believe - be a viable option to a ton of kids that want to play... You'd have to give FREE baseball to kids for a few years to get Legion to flourish in the states I mentioned to attract players... If Legion would fund this they would grow it in the states where they need to... It would basically take Legion throwing a "Hail Mary"... It would be a huge initiative just to re-stock the pond...

I know the legion that was once associated with sons old HS, did non of the funding. They let us use their badge (is that the right term). Playing legion was more expensive than trabel, back then. At least for that team. There was always the perception that the junior legion team was helping to fund the legion team. The junior legion team's roster was always much bigger. The program would turn no one away. I cannot see the legion gibing it away for free. Especially in more suburban areas.

Unfortunately, from what I know, the Legion leadership at the national level is a bunch of old men who live in the past.

freddy77 posted:

Unfortunately, from what I know, the Legion leadership at the national level is a bunch of old men who live in the past.

It's getting better. That's why I got elected Post Commander four years ago. Our District and Department leadership is getting more youthful as well.

However, this is a side effect of having an all-volunteer organization...most of us that are in our 20s or 30s are busy with families and jobs, and that leaves a lot of people 50+ with much more time to give to the organization (National is really a labor of love.)

Matt13 posted:

structuredoc posted:

If the player must play for the team nearest his parents' domicile, what difference does it make whether he previously played?  Parents aren't going to relocate just so their kid can play for a specific Legion team.  I can understand the concern over improper recruiting and sham addresses, but that seems to be handled by having to play for the team nearest to the parents' domicile.

There is no way of validating that the parents' address is real. The reason this becomes an issue for freshmen is that most states (departments) use the concept of a home school for each team--thus the player's address is irrelevant in HS and only becomes an issue as a college freshman. A new player to Legion could put any address he wanted and there would be no way of verifying it was legitimate (and no history to support that he lived there before the season.)

Okay, but what if there is a stipulation that says if a 19 year old (college freshman) wishes to play Legion ball, he must be able to show mortgage/rental agreement, utility bills, etc, from his parents' residence WHEN he was in high school, and then plays in that district.  In this case, he is able to prove he was eligible to play at a younger age - he just didn't. 

There just seems to be too many scenarios in which a kid may play legion for the first time at 19 years of age.  I pose all of this because this is exactly what happened to my son.  Seven games into the season, he is told he is ineligible because he had never been on a roster until now.  We did not know the rule, and apparently his coach didn't, either. 

Why hadn't he played legion before?  It just never occurred to him/us.  Previous summers, he either played travel ball or took time off to train, work, etc.  We didn't even know how competitive legion ball was in our area (we moved to the area half-way into his junior year of HS).  Just about all of the players are D3 college freshmen or HS seniors about to play D3, with some D1 players sprinkled in.  It has been very good baseball, and fun to watch.  As a freshman, my son didn't get to play very much at his D3; legion was giving him an opportunity to see live pitching - something he hadn't had regularly since senior year in HS.  So what are his options?  Playing legion was affordable, keeps him local, and gets to play regularly.  Now he is just back in the gym and the batting cage.

I say the rule needs to be modified.

Where my kids grew up and where I have a summer home there aren't any Legion posts. The teams are all sponsored by businesses. I read post Viet Nam veterans aren't joining veterans groups like previous generations. The organizations are dying off in many areas. My father and uncle were WWII vets. They belonged to every veterans organization.

structuredoc posted:

Matt13 posted:

structuredoc posted:

If the player must play for the team nearest his parents' domicile, what difference does it make whether he previously played?  Parents aren't going to relocate just so their kid can play for a specific Legion team.  I can understand the concern over improper recruiting and sham addresses, but that seems to be handled by having to play for the team nearest to the parents' domicile.

There is no way of validating that the parents' address is real. The reason this becomes an issue for freshmen is that most states (departments) use the concept of a home school for each team--thus the player's address is irrelevant in HS and only becomes an issue as a college freshman. A new player to Legion could put any address he wanted and there would be no way of verifying it was legitimate (and no history to support that he lived there before the season.)

Okay, but what if there is a stipulation that says if a 19 year old (college freshman) wishes to play Legion ball, he must be able to show mortgage/rental agreement, utility bills, etc, from his parents' residence WHEN he was in high school, and then plays in that district.  In this case, he is able to prove he was eligible to play at a younger age - he just didn't. 

There just seems to be too many scenarios in which a kid may play legion for the first time at 19 years of age.  I pose all of this because this is exactly what happened to my son.  Seven games into the season, he is told he is ineligible because he had never been on a roster until now.  We did not know the rule, and apparently his coach didn't, either. 

Why hadn't he played legion before?  It just never occurred to him/us.  Previous summers, he either played travel ball or took time off to train, work, etc.  We didn't even know how competitive legion ball was in our area (we moved to the area half-way into his junior year of HS).  Just about all of the players are D3 college freshmen or HS seniors about to play D3, with some D1 players sprinkled in.  It has been very good baseball, and fun to watch.  As a freshman, my son didn't get to play very much at his D3; legion was giving him an opportunity to see live pitching - something he hadn't had regularly since senior year in HS.  So what are his options?  Playing legion was affordable, keeps him local, and gets to play regularly.  Now he is just back in the gym and the batting cage.

I say the rule needs to be modified.

The underlined portion is why legion ball is so good.   I would think the intent on the rule mentioned above is to cultivate the American Legion program at the junior lever (14-17) and as someone mentioned above keeps teams from bringing in "ringers" to bolster their team.  

My son's senior legion team has played one tournament about a 4 hr drive but most games have been close.  Right now they are in Little Rock, Ar which is about a 2 hr drive.  

I just read a funny post from 2002 and I believe it has become prophetic.   Bubba's baseball basher bonanza

Again, it depends on where you are. Some states the top players play American Legion. In some areas they can compete with the AAUs. Son played against a team last year that had 5 D1 pitchers. While some teams are fairly week, other top teams are very competitive. (Love playing wood bat too which is voted on each yr)

Just read this about the local legion team in my area. They came into the area tournament as the #8 seed and upset the #1 seed 3-1 in their best of 5 series. First time ever that an 8 defeated the 1.

The #4 seed defeated the #5 seed 3-0, setting up a #4 vs. #8 best of 5 series.

#8 seed team is then notified by the Area commissioner that the #4 seed will have to forfeit due to not having enough players to continue and that #8 will move on to the area tournament finals. #8 Coach notifies his players they have the week off and tells the local Legion officials they don't have to schedule games and workers for the series.

Six (6) hours later, #8 coach gets a call saying they will now have to play the #5 seed that  was just eliminated 3-0 from the playoffs. That it wouldn't be fair to the remaining teams for #8 to get a bye and be fresh heading into the finals.

Interesting...

Surprised by the decision. I know there are regular season rules and a few nuances for playoffs/state tournaments (such as dual participation), 9 vs 7 innings in some games. But IMO, a bracket is a bracket. Just wondering, why do you think #8 made it so far? Here I could see that happen if the #8 was a team that went deep into the HS state championship, and Legion season started before HS season ends and #8's key players weren't eligible to play.

I think #8 got hot at the right time. I would also guess that something may have happened with the #1 seed - maybe they had some college guys who had to report and couldn't play in the tourney, had some guys hurt, or possibly had the best regular season record based on 2 good starters and ran into problems in a best of 5 series and were out of pitching.

Also, the coach of the #8 team typically rotates players during the regular season, giving everyone a chance to play. So, if they play on a Monday, a certain group of guys play, and if they play again on Wednesday, you may see four or five different position players. On double header games, you'll see him do the same thing. But during the playoffs, he'll play his best every game. And from what I know of the #8 team, they were much better than their record showed.

As to the decision, I guess there was some politics involved after the forfeit and the bye awarded. Then a second ruling was made requiring the series with the team that has been eliminated.

The only way this will come back to bite the area commish is if the eliminated team defeats #8 in the series and ends up winning the area tournament. Not likely, but it would be hilarious if that actually happened.

Ripken Fan posted:

Surprised by the decision. I know there are regular season rules and a few nuances for playoffs/state tournaments (such as dual participation), 9 vs 7 innings in some games. But IMO, a bracket is a bracket. Just wondering, why do you think #8 made it so far? Here I could see that happen if the #8 was a team that went deep into the HS state championship, and Legion season started before HS season ends and #8's key players weren't eligible to play.

I'm not going to say this is standard, as I've not worked everywhere in the country, but every Legion tournament I've worked has it set up this way. If a team can't make their next game, they're done and it's next team up. It's kind of funny in a way, that a team can be "eliminated" but aren't fully done until the next game is played.

My son is playing both legion (AAA) and travel. It works because travel is a 16U showcase team that is only playing at a few showcase tournament's directly put on by local D1 colleges.  

In our state, there is huge pressure on the kids to play for your HS team in the summer. We're really way behind the rest of the country in this aspect. However, there are enough kids that choose to play travel ball in the summer that high school summer ball really isn't very competitive. That doesn't stop the HS coaches from putting a lot of pressure on the kids to play though. The AAA Legion level is a step above our high school summer leagues and offers a higher level of competition. My son's team is comprised mainly of rising seniors and 2016 graduates. There are also 2 JC college freshmen and two rising juniors. This team has beat all the HS teams they've faced (not surprising) and played some competitive ball against other Legion teams. Pitching can be an issue when you're into your 4th-5th+ game of the week. We've been very happy with our Legion experiences over the last two summers. Even with those experiences, this will be my son's last year as he moves on to a historically competitive 18U travel team next summer. Some of the rules are a little funky, but I have nothing but positive things to say about the Legion program in our area. 

The #8 seed that was required to play the previously eliminated #5 seed won the series 3-0. So, the #8 team will still be going to the finals. Better to win on the field than get in by forfeit. However, the #5 seed has now been eliminated twice.

Probably good for the #8 seed to have also seen live pitching... Nothing like taking a week off to have your timing disrupted.