Analyze Pictures of a Pitcher

The second pitcher I think it is also obvious he is not using his left side by the position of his glove.

In both of these cases I would look at stride length. The first pitcher strides too far and that is causing the landing on the heel. He is going to lose hip turn explosiveness and lose velocity there. The second pitcher doesn't stride far enough. He is releasing the ball very high and is probably having to hold back mentally to keep himself from air mailing it to the backstop. If he used his lower half more, he could use the downhill plane of the mound to his advantage and power through better.

I also note that your top pitcher, in frame 2, seems to be choking the ball. If this was not a change up, I would suggest he loosen up on the fastball grip some for better finger tip control and release whip.

midlodad

quote:

The first pitcher strides too far and that is causing the landing on the heel. He is going to lose hip turn explosiveness and lose velocity there.

No. His stride length has nothing to do with the heel landing first or the explosivness in his hip turn.

Woosteroh, are you one of the pitchers in the pictures? If so would you prefer a pm regarding them...?

Deemax, have to disagree. Try it yourself. If your foot extends out too far, you cannot land on the ball of the foot. And once the hips are wide open, you lose the turning power. In this case the heel landing is the symptom, not the disease.

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And once the hips are wide open, you lose the turning power.

Your advice is inaccurate. The first pitchers hips open well before the shoulders. This dosnt "lose the turning power"...it creates it. Its OK to disagree with me, most do....but that dosnt make me wrong.

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Is this next pitcher lifting the heel to high, losing velocity? I think he should be throwing harder and I feel that it has to do with lifting the pivot foot to early before release.

He's probably rotating too early (as the support foot can lose contact with the ground, thus affecting both velocity and control)

Get him to move explosively leading with the front hip.

Hid stride is way too short. Way, way too short.

And the first pitcher, (without seeing a video) could possibly be reaching with his front leg. He should be speeding up the entire mass of his body by leading explosively (stride length of 100%+ would be ideal). The reaching will tend to make the pitcher land on his heel because his trunk is not moving with the head over the bellybutton all the way until landing.

Increasing stride length is not about something the lead leg is doing. The position of the lead leg is a result of the entire body moving faster so that the head and trunk are in a good position at landing.

Remember, the more momentum, the more speed of movement, will generate more elastic energy, which produces velocity.

I was behind the camera. Related to neither, not on the coaching staff. Know their parents and coached them in a few years back.

Top one is a Center fielder by trade (whatever that means, but I guess I am saying he was 2nd team All-Ohio as a leadoff hitter only playing CF), but may pitch some this year, wont be #1. Maybe just spot.

2nd one is most likely the teams 3rd starter, unless the one above moves in and takes 2nd or 3rd spot. Should also play some 1st and 3rd for his bat, no not hiding him there, at least in my eyes, others may disagree.

I never really thought about how to correct the 2nd pitcher. Longer stride may be the key.

Of course you can't really see, but looking at the photos again it sure looks like the top on lands open, or at the least, pointed right at the plate. That would indicate opening early? I try to get 10-13 year olds landing on their toes, it is not that hard if you get them early.

Top pitcher:

I would really like to see what happens between frames 3 and 4. Specifically, I'd want to see if he gets full hip rotation before the shoulders rotate. If so, then I would say hip rotation is not an issue.

Bottom pitcher:

Can't tell much from just 2 frames. But if I had to guess, I'd agree with the others that the stride is too short. But I can't tell from the 2 frames why it's too short and, therefore, what the fix is.

Reason for a short stride, not enough speed of movement being developed.

Get him to start moving explosively off the mound, leading with his front hip.

Remember, the more muscles you can put on stretch with good speed of movement and momentum, the more elastic energy you're able to produce, (good mechanics considered) the higher the velocity.

If you want a pitching delivery analyzed you really need to post a video clip. Still images are nice to look at but they don't tell the entire story.

Jason

Right on Jason! My sentiments exactly.

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Originally posted by XFactor:
Reason for a short stride, not enough speed of movement being developed.

That's one reason. But there are other possible reasons. Unfortunately, we need to see video to really know.

Video would of been great.

I guess, I thought the first one is closer to a good form than the bottom one. Inverted W, but not bad so those that dont like the inverted W because of arm troubles, well, he is close, but not Pryor inverted. I love the tucked glove, signs he is using it to help rotate.

I feel the bottom one is doing something with the pivot foot that makes him lift it.

I think the 1st photo of the 2nd pitcher may show that he is doing what bowlers do, (he was a good youth bowler) and he is sliding is foot towards 1st base then pulling it forward. I dont see much left side, trunk then hips uncorking.

He is losing major velocity. No one is helping him because he is getting outs. He was the #1 pitcher last year on JV as a sophomore. was 4-1-1 pitching in 38 innings. Next year most likely will be #1 on varsity. Now is the time to fix things.

Just because he is successful, does not mean you dont correct pitching form, in the end, he should be better. Some HS's dont have a bunch of coaches, and they are not pitching coaches and they have 20 kids to deal with, so they cant work on one or two. I think Wooster usually has 4 for 3 levels. Only one on JV and Freshman levels. Cant expect them to be able to work on pitchers. They are not correcting flaws.

I have told 2 other pitchers over the past 2 years things they could improve on. No one on one, just phone calls or talks with their fathers. I also tell them to not take my word for, ask their coach. The coaches know me, but I don't want to step on their toes. I see a lot of things looking through photos. I see lots of problems but stay out of it. I only say something if I feel I can approach the dad and he will listen and be open to what I am saying, because they trust me.

I tried to get the 2nd pitcher when he was 10-11 years old to use is left side more. Start them younger. well, he has now played for like 5 other coaches, and he is 16 now.

Thanks for all that has replied.

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Originally posted by WoosterOh:
I feel the bottom one is doing something with the pivot foot that makes him lift it.

Chances are that the pivot foot lifting is caused not by what the pivot foot itself is doing but by something else. Typically, if the pitcher does something to get the head and shoulders out front too far and/or too soon, that causes the pivot foot to lift instead of drag. But, again, the two pictures just don't show enough to determine the real underlying cause.

You are right, however, that sideways movement of the pivot foot is an indication of an inefficiency. Specifically, some energy is being directed in a direction other than towards the target and that can certain impact velocity.

I would be more worried about the 1B camping out at first.

Redbird

Took me a while to figure out what you meant. Now I see. He is leaving a huge hole.

He was a freshman at the time. He is going to have to make some leaps to make it as a Senior. He is sandwiched between two strong classes. Sometimes things start clicking, but that comes from a dedication and getting help and long Winters. This was a game played using one of the 10 days alloted for contact during July. He was up with a lot from this years varsity team.

Pitcher one looks like he thows hard. STOP PULLING THE GLOVE!!! Other than that I have to see the ball flight before I recomend anything else. You do look low to the ground (drop and drive) this is ok as long as you are not too flat with fastball and throw very hard.
Pitcher 2 needs some work. That position at release is just not good. Several things should be broken down to see what helps

The #1 guy has a very good delivery and should release just a bit latter but overall looks good.

#2 reminds me of a pitcher I know who is a college soph. He pitched 61 innings as a freshman and was second lowest era on his D1 team. I personally like a longer stride and a much latter release point. More out front. The front leg is perpendicular and causes the pitcher to pole vault over it to realease. This creates more of an arm throw as opposed to getting the full body into the pitch and results in an early release.
#2 needs to keep his glove higher in the arm pit area as he goes forward. Better control .

Is number 2 a breaking ball pitcher who throws a 12-6 curve? The short stride can help with downward movement on the fastball and curve, but there's usually a tradeoff with velocity. He might actually be more effective if he were to straighten his posting leg allowing for an even higher release point.

If he's looking at needing more velocity long term then he probably needs to lengthen his stride a bit.

There's also the possibility that he strides shorter when throwing a curve than when throwing a fastball and the picture you've posted catches him throwing a curve.

I agree that it allows a 12-6 CB but you should not give away your pitch. He is at an age that the CB should tighten up its rotation. Good batters will eat a 6-12 CB if you throw it too often especially if you tip it off.

Those that say he throws 12-6, I hope he knows he is to throw 12-6, not round houses. But, I know he does throw curves he learned with his brother throwing tennis ball in their home. As I said, I coached him when he was 10-11. I would not allow him to throw curves. When I coached 7th graders this year, they hated 12-6, because they never threw curves like that. I would stay on them. I did give in a little when I would warm them up, I made them throw them my way, and throw some their way. Ease them into it because they were going to throw it their way anyways. I made them think they had a new pitch. I would call for a 12-6 curveball when I sent in signals to the catcher. Make them throw it in games, otherwise if you call curve, they will throw a roundhouse. They were starting to get it.

I would say top photo was a curve, 2nd photo a change-up, since his hand is ahead of the ball and the way his fingers are pointing. Other photos he had a circle change grip.

Jace

Are you saying use more of a swim move with the left side?

That would be an interesting topic for another thread. I believe it is important part of the delivery that is almost a secret.

For those commenting, thanks. Sometimes it is about just looking at photos, seeing what you may see. I did not notice the landing foot pointing at and one image slightly open for the 1st pitcher. Did not notice the 2nds bowling hook of his pivot foot till later. We are all here for a reason. I seen both kids today because it was photo day. I did not say anything to either. I would prefer to see how much pitching they will be doing, I dont want to mess with them now when they may then blame me for early struggles. Sorry, I am not that big of a man to take that. Rather do it if they struggle, or during the off-season. If they struggle and wonder why, with your guys help, they can have some slight adjustments, one maybe more than slight, that can get them some confidence.

No idea on the top photo of the second pitcher. Too early in the motion to be certain. The bottom picture of the second pitcher looks like a curve because he's supinated. Could be some sort of change but it looks like a curve.

I would guess that the first pitcher has problems keeping the ball down in the zone. That is a fairly common result of striding too far and crashing the heal! Throwing up hill! Though it is hard to tell exactly how much he is crashing the heal. It does look like he is opening up a bit early, too. Sure looks athletic though!

Sorry, if someone already mentioned this.

quote:

Originally posted by WoosterOh:
Is this next pitcher lifting the heel to high, losing velocity? I think he should be throwing harder and I feel that it has to do with lifting the pivot foot to early before release.

No.

He's doing this due to his relatively short stride, which I think is fine.

Curt Schilling does something like this.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:

quote:

And once the hips are wide open, you lose the turning power.

Your advice is inaccurate. The first pitchers hips open well before the shoulders. This dosnt "lose the turning power"...it creates it. Its OK to disagree with me, most do....but that dosnt make me wrong.

This picture...



...shows good hip/shoulder separation.

It also suggests that his timing is good.

quote:

Originally posted by WoosterOh:
I guess, I thought the first one is closer to a good form than the bottom one. Inverted W, but not bad so those that dont like the inverted W because of arm troubles, well, he is close, but not Pryor inverted. I love the tucked glove, signs he is using it to help rotate.

"Inverted W" is a dangerous cue.

At a minimum, it's not what Clemens, Ryan, Seaver, Maddux, and other greats do.

"Horizontal W" is a much better (and safer) cue.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
#2 needs to keep his glove higher in the arm pit area as he goes forward. Better control .

I agree.

#2's GS arm action isn't helping him and may be hurting him.