Another Interesting Read

quote:

"Isn't George Mitchell with the Red Sox?"

Yes, he is.

And there's no getting around that.

Hmmmmmmm...


Good find, TR. But I hate to read another round of the arguments here. I wish I would not keep clicking these threads.

.
So true TR...and so true 08'..

We might as well let it go...regardless of what happened, who did what, and how you feel...if their is ONE truth to this mess it is that the same factors and people that created this mess, will keep it from being settled/aired/fixed...

...There is more motivation on the part of those in charge to continue to look the other way...than there is to come to clean and get a handle on it...player health, reputation, the good of the game, the fans, truth, are small considerations for those in charge. Winning and money are.

I wonder what those in charge now would have done with the 1919 Black Sox?

I find these reports of players use disturbing, but more disturbing the timing of when they come out, which is no coincidence, I am sure of that. Same thing with Ankiel, news of his use comes out after he gets moved up and doing well this season.

Interesting, unless you are on a run and making a splash, is your name withheld until it really counts the most?

Let's just get it all on the table now (release everyone's name) no matter who you are playing for.

I still say that MLB should just issue a edict---two years to clean up--after that regular testing and if caught you are gone---we cannot keep looking for ghosts from the past-- set a two year grace period and go from there

The Red Sox didn't hire Mitchell to report on 'roids. MLB hired Mitchell. Slow news day I guess.

Which is what it says, Dad; it's MLB's "investigation" (using the term very loosely) . And that Mitchell is on the Red Sox' board of directors.

An owner-commissioner and an affiliated investigator. We obviously need more people in this country, it's getting way too incestuous.

interesting ... thanks for the heads up TR

ya missed the point D04

quote:

by D04: The Red Sox didn't hire Mitchell to report on 'roids. MLB hired Mitchell who is a member of the Sox organization and had a vested interest in them winning the ALCS ... and oddly enough the SF Chronicle somehow got hold of his "investigation info" and even more co-incidental published it on the eve of the game HIS TEAM was playing deciding the ALCS

"Other Indians found the timing suspicious: Why was this story coming out now? To them, it was a significant distraction, hours before the biggest game of their lives"


BUT, I guess if Bud says there is no connection I gotta believe him ...
his reputation is impeccable and he's also shown himself to be right on top of these substance issues


sigh, they'll prolly make it up to the Tribe by giving CC the Cy Young, snubbing Beckett

I agree with TG - the leak did not beat the Indians. You left out the shot BTW TG, you know that famous shot by Michael Jordan shooting over Craig Ehlo with no time left on the clock? There was also another one known as Red Right 88 where Brian Sipe threw an interception (during his MVP year of 1980) to the Raiders who then became the World Champs that year.

Byrd also has created his own problems with a somewhat implausible explanation for things.

All that said, the SF chronicle appears to have many names in hand and they are a business. Releasing Paul Byrd's name in August has no value to their business because frankly not many people even know or care who Byrd is. Releasing it at game 7 of the ALCS has much more impact. Similarily with Ankiel, releasing his name while he was still in the minors has no impact. Releasing his name after he made national news for his comeback has much impact. I am guessing that the Rockies should be very nervous right now if any of their players have something to hide. Also would not be surprised if someone like Eric Gagne were outed at this time to try and keep up the appearances

I wasn't aware the former senator from Maine was Sox affiliated until today. Obviously there are glaring conflicts. The investigation is flawed from the beginning. I get that. Isn't Byrd most probably cheating the story, regardless of who leaked to SFC? Are we looking for messengers to shoot now?

quote:

by CD: I am guessing that the Rockies should be very nervous right now if any of their players have something to hide. Also would not be surprised if someone like Eric Gagne were outed at this time to try and keep up the appearances

quote:

by D04: Are we looking for messengers to shoot now?

nope .... LEAKERS with confidential info, an ADENDA, and a keen sense of timing

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:

quote:

by CD: I am guessing that the Rockies should be very nervous right now if any of their players have something to hide. Also would not be surprised if someone like Eric Gagne were outed at this time to try and keep up the appearances

I wouldn't be disapointed if Gagne was left home. Il est tres mauvais.

quote:

Originally posted by TG:

quote:

"Isn't George Mitchell with the Red Sox?"

Mitchell didn't get outscored 30-5. Mitchell didn't lose three games when he only had to win one. These are Indian's accomplishments.

The Drive, The Fumble, and now The Collapse. Cleveland rocks!

The Drive was a result of some player named Elway performing in the clutch.(the FG was no good??) I was there.

The Fumble was a heads up play by a defender who stripped the ball from a pretty darn good running back.

Don't forget the Shot, by some average player named Jordan. He got lucky I suppose?

I heard that $125,000 Broadway Musical was a flop.

http://www.1918redsox.com/press/miamiherald.htm

The 1995 WS was lost to a great pitching staff in Atlanta.

The 1997 WS was the one the Tribe really needed to have, and probably the most painful to Indian fans.

The Red Sox used great talent to win in 2004. What Curse?

The Red Sox are using great talent in 2007 in their attempt to win again.

Sabathia and Carmona appeared afraid to throw strikes, and the walks issued and pitching behind in counts was the difference. Thats just baseball fact, regardless of the participants.

You want to pick on the City of Cleveland, go right ahead. They have issues, huge Municipal problems, school system, commerce(lack of growth), etc.

What they have is a beautiful lakefront that the myopic politicians can't seem to take advantage of.

quote:

OS 8 posted: Sabathia and Carmona appeared afraid to throw strikes, and the walks issued and pitching behind in counts was the difference. Thats just baseball fact, regardless of the participants.

Eric Wedge was very open and forthright after game 7. He thought a lack of playoff experience played a key role in the outcome.

quote:

Originally posted by Dad04:

quote:

OS 8 posted: Sabathia and Carmona appeared afraid to throw strikes, and the walks issued and pitching behind in counts was the difference. Thats just baseball fact, regardless of the participants.

Eric Wedge was very open and forthright after game 7. He thought a lack of playoff experience played a key role in the outcome.

In my mind, the main culprits were Sabathia, Carmona, Hafner, and Sizemore. Take four of our best players out of the series and it is truly amazing we got to game seven. I believe in giving the credit to the Red Sox rather than blaming the Indians. Hope people appreciate what a special player Victor Martinez has become.

quote:

Originally posted by Dad04:

Eric Wedge was very open and forthright after game 7. He thought a lack of playoff experience played a key role in the outcome.

I am sure we can all name successful teams that won in spite of a lack of playoff experience.

Maybe Wedge meant HIS lack of playoff experience. To be up 3-1 after your #1 and # 2 effectively layed an egg is a baseball gift. The series turned toward Boston in the 7th inning of Game # 5.

CCS had no business being on the mound. From famed writer Terry Pluto.........(I Agree)

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf?/base/sports-0...ml&coll=2&thispage=1

"It may be hard for some fans to remember this morning, but the Indians were losing by a 2-1 count heading into the seventh inning of Game 5 at Jacobs Field. Tribe Time was now, as the T-shirts proclaim. But that's when Eric Wedge suddenly began thinking about tomorrow, acting like this were the middle of July and he needed to save his bullpen.

The Tribe manager sent C.C. Sabathia to the mound for the seventh inning.

He looked weary (especially mentally) after 106 pitches in six pressure-packed innings where he was surrounded by more runners than a track coach. In the seventh, Sabathia was hit hard, and the 2-1 score was suddenly 5-1.

The bottom is very simple---The Red Sox were the better team with a better manager and deeper pitching and perhaps better coaching at third base

quote:

OS8 posted: Maybe Wedge meant HIS lack of playoff experience.

Wedge was not specific in his reference. You acurately pin pointed the turning point in the series. 7th inning game 5 took it back to Boston, where home field made a difference, imo. Leaving CCS out there didn't work out. The Tribe bullpen was not effective the last 3 games though.

quote:

Eric Wedge was very open and forthright after game 7. He thought a lack of playoff experience played a key role in the outcome.

don't read too much into Wedge's comments ... they were out of "the Managers book of responses",
it's like the "Bull Durham" book for players only packed with generic comments for managers

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
The bottom is very simple---The Red Sox were the better team with a better manager and deeper pitching and perhaps better coaching at third base

Well put TR (and nicely understated). Lets all stop looking for black helicopters on grassy knolls and give the Sox their due. Those guys played great, especially Beckett, Manny, and Papi.
Cleveland has a great young team, and they'll have as good a chance as any to make it back to the ACLS next year. Experience matters though, and it really showed in this series.

The bottom line is that experience, in general, when it comes down to the wire, wins ball games. Sending CC back on the mound showed lack of experience (not on his part). You don't think tomorrow in playoffs, you have to think today. Sending him back, and not a fresh arm, could have made all the difference in the world.


Same reason why the same teams in college make playoffs or head off Omaha. You may not have the best talent on the team, but you have coaches who have been there, over and over and over and make decisions based on experieince.

JMO.

quote:

Cleveland has a great young team, and they'll have as good a chance as any to make it back to the ACLS next year.

I agree barring the fact they don't have a melt down like they did in 06 (78-84) after the great run they had in 05 (93-69)

ACLS? Oops, I hope I haven't jinxed anyone.

quote:

SP posted: and they'll have as good a chance as any to make it back to the ACLS next year.

They are the favorites in the AL Central. Other than the Yankees, the other playoff teams are the usual suspects.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc_K:

quote:

Cleveland has a great young team, and they'll have as good a chance as any to make it back to the ACLS next year.

I agree barring the fact they don't have a melt down like they did in 06 (78-84) after the great run they had in 05 (93-69)

It seems as though recent history would tell us the the AL Central does not produce repeat winners.

quote:

by spzlp: give the Sox their due. Those guys played great, especially Beckett, Manny, and Papi.

(don't leave out Ellsbury) agree, and as a loyal AL fan, I will be cheering them on



btw, those helicopters have stealth capability & tho hard to spot, they ARE there and shouldn't be ignored

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:
It seems as though recent history would tell us the the AL Central does not produce repeat winners.

Or the AL West, or the NL West...actually, it's only the Braves & Cards in the NL and the Yankees & Sox in the AL doing any repeating in the last dozen or so years. And, of course, the Indians in '95 & '97 . Good, innit?

Our vertically-challanged second baseman Dustin Pedroia, who played for Doug McMillan in the AC Games has been effective also. Doug was very proud of him.

quote:

Originally posted by Dad04:
Our vertically-challanged second baseman Dustin Pedroia, who played for Doug McMillan in the AC Games has been effective also. Doug was very proud of him.

I believe several of his (bbscout's) former players were in this years playoffs. Jimmy Rollins may have been his favorite and I believe CC Sabathia played for him as well.

Getting back to the Mitchell report. With all the conflict of interest seems like they would just put an * at the end of his report ???

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
I find these reports of players use disturbing, but more disturbing the timing of when they come out, which is no coincidence

Business is Business. As fans we look at this as a game, we don't have millions of dollars invested and if we did our take on situations, how they develop, and how they are resolved would be completely different. We watch the game, we have nothing riding on it, thus we become "armchair quarterbacks" when decisions are made. Our opinions are worth as much as our investments in the teams....nothing.

Think about it. If you were Red Sox ownership and you knew about this little rumor, when would you divulge it? If you say anything but "the day he takes the mound" you've ony proven that you will never own a professional sports team. The names/rumors change, but the tatics are the same in every industry from automotive to zoo supplies.

Over the years, after understanding business more I have found that I've enjoyed watching the game within the game almost as much as the game itself. In the dark corners of my home I try to wear the owners shoes and imagine that I'm the one that has the large investment and am pulling the string on BIG decisions. It's a different look from tyhat side of the fence but the passion for the game is just as deep just from a difgfent angle with more at stake.

With that said, I firmly believe that by trying to understand that side of the coin has made the understanding of the business side of my sons early professional baseball life much easier.

Interesting sidelight ---when I was in the construction business I did work as an expert witness in cases---if I personally knew the contractors in volved I turned down the job---I would think Selig would feel the same---especially here where he does not need anymore ghosts in the closet

well put RZ1,
maybe as a former MLB franchise minority owner I can just spot Spizzel's "black helicopters" a little easier that some

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
well put RZ1,
maybe as a former MLB franchise minority owner I can just spot Spizzel's "black helicopters" a little easier that some

BEE

gotta post a pic of one of those DickJ stock certs of yours

"Albany County District Attorney David Soares, whose own investigation aimed to shut down a major supply line of illegal prescription drugs and "was never about cleaning up sports," has met with representatives from the Mitchell Commission."
quote from ESPN THE MAGAZINE Oct. 13th


btw The Albany county DA was responsible for the raid on the Fla. clinic in Feb. that resulted in the discovery of Byrds HGH purchase records.


"We had no prior knowledge of those allegations, and we first learned of them, along with the rest of the public, through news accounts"
official statement from Mitchells office.



SO, Mr. Mitchell, your telling us that no one from your investigative team took the time to inform you
that an opposing pitcher (of the team that you are on the BOD) is ON THE LIST.
Actually, your press statement says "WEhad no knowledge", hmmmmmm So after meeting with the Albany DA , you didn't come away with info regarding a certain MLB pitcher buying thousands of dollars worth of HGH?

Lemme get on my hip waders before you respond!!!

quote:

Originally posted by TripleDad:
"Albany County District Attorney David Soares, whose own investigation aimed to shut down a major supply line of illegal prescription drugs and "was never about cleaning up sports," has met with representatives from the Mitchell Commission."
quote from ESPN THE MAGAZINE Oct. 13th


btw The Albany county DA was responsible for the raid on the Fla. clinic in Feb. that resulted in the discovery of Byrds HGH purchase records.


"We had no prior knowledge of those allegations, and we first learned of them, along with the rest of the public, through news accounts"
official statement from Mitchells office.



SO, Mr. Mitchell, your telling us that no one from your investigative team took the time to inform you
that an opposing pitcher (of the team that you are on the BOD) is ON THE LIST.
Actually, your press statement says "WEhad no knowledge", hmmmmmm So after meeting with the Albany DA , you didn't come away with info regarding a certain MLB pitcher buying thousands of dollars worth of HGH?

Lemme get on my hip waders before you respond!!!

I guess th DA won't release names unless he can interview the players first, huh??

Notice how Boston handled the fireballers pretty well and struggled with the junkballers ?

Where was Lee and Sowers when you need them?

Anyone think of the Wakefield factor ? The Tribe bats went even further south after game 4. Those knuckleballs can screw up everything.

The press release was intentional as far as timing. That simple.

quote:

Originally posted by rz1: O
Our opinions are worth as much as our investments in the teams....nothing.

I didn't realize fans of the game were not allowed to give their opinions.

I am not an owner, never will be, and therefore I tend not to look at ownership's side of things. And I don't enjoy the game within the game. Neither do others, one of the reasons why baseball is not the all american sport anymore. Too much controversy, too much wondering why after all of these years these issues keep dragging on with no real solutions.

I have found that most people really don't care about the issues facing MLB.

IMO, which I am entitled to, the game of baseball should be played out on the field, not sudden information that pops up when convenient, but in our world today that is virtually (literally) impossible in almost anything.

Give me all of the facts, every players name, publish the investigation, players come clean with their involvement (honestly), don't hand out bits and pieces to keep me guessing. Then when I am presented all of the facts, I will form an opinion (which again I am entitled to) and come to my own conclusions. I might even be forgiving.

This just in from AP.
(10-23) 12:38 PDT BOSTON (AP) --
Knuckleballer Tim Wakefield is being left off Boston's roster for the World Series because of a bad shoulder.
The 41-year-old Wakefield fought through back problems late in the season and was kept off the roster for the first-round series against the Los Angeles Angels. He has pitched once since Sept. 29, allowing five runs in 4 2-3 innings in Game 4 of the AL championship series against the Cleveland Indians.
Wakefield was 17-12 with a 4.76 ERA in the regular season.
Also Tuesday, Red Sox manager Terry Francona said Jacoby Ellsbury would start Game 1 in center field in place of Coco Crisp.
Crisp struggled in the playoffs and was replaced in the lineup for Games 6 and 7 against Cleveland, and he also banged into the wall catching the final out of the ALCS.