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22 replies

Another performance enhancer?

rz1rz15,000+ posts
With all the talk about steroids and performance enhancing products being used I now ask about "surgically enhanced" procedures and the future potential impact.

While not an expert, my sons recent "Tommy John" experience opened my eyes to some interesting data. Tommy John surgery is a modern miracle in regard to the reconstruction of the elbow joint due to a tear of the UCL. Statistics now show that ~90% of those worked on have returned to, or exceeded their pre-surgery velocity levels. It is also documented that there are cases of MLB pitchers that have lost a little velocity in the early portion of their careers have had the surgery done on an "elective" basis and not as a result of an injury.

This is where it gets a little saucy. Since the surgery is not a "repair" procedure but rather a re-constructive event that involves grafting a tendon from another part of the body. This results in strengthening the elbow joint which is necessary to produce velocity. In my eyes the elbow joint has now become bionic because it is not an original part. This is where we open Pandoras box.

Is this in effect, when elective, and not associated with a tear, a potential performance enhancing procedure?

Is there cause for concern that MLB needs to identify the potential of these type procedures in the future?

If you are repairing a part of the body that is injured there is no issue, if you are enhancing a particular function by changing the structure, I see potential issues. A virtual "pitching machine".

I find it encouraging, yet funny, that many sports medicine professionals have said "wait and see, your son will come back throwing harder than he did before he got hurt". I really hope that's the case. In todays world medicine grows by leaps and bounds and unless there is a proactive approach to the possibility of bionic reconstruction I see futuristic issues that closely resemble many of the steroid issues.
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M Mniterambler10+ posts
Another thought I have rz is that alot of hitters Mcguire for sure had lazer eye surgury so they see the ball better. He had alot better vision after the surgery so he picked the ball up better,Now they have contact lenses for the kids that work kinda the same way by just letting certain colors come through more vividly so you can pick up the baseball better..Its kinda like the sporting clays glasses that I wear, I am thinking about buying a pair of these contacts for my son to try but to me that is still on the edge of legality or morality whichever...
B brute66100+ posts
This is a very interesting topic. I look at it this way:

Should great athletes with poor natural vision be forced to leave the sport, or allowed to correct it with the best means available?

Should pitchers be forced to constantly throw at the edge of injury, or be allowed to enhance their elbow and cruise safely at the same speeds?

A pitcher who throws a 95 mph fastball but has no other good pitch will get lit up, so even the enhanced guy has to learn how to pitch. However, he may have the time to do so if his elbow is better protected from sudden catastrophic failure.

If this procedure can be proven to be low risk, I feel it could add safety to the game. Pitchers are required to subject that single joint in their body to the most violent forces in all of sports. Many, many promising ones have become casualties over the years.
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
Should great athletes with poor natural vision be forced to leave the sport, or allowed to correct it with the best means available?

While the results may be better vision IMO it is a correction and should not be considered an enhancement.

quote:
Should pitchers be forced to constantly throw at the edge of injury, or be allowed to enhance their elbow and cruise safely at the same speeds?

A player plays to the limits of their body and reaching those limits comes risks. By having an elbow/shoulder enhanced you are potentially creating a "Viagra Arm" which blurs the definition of athleticism, fair play and sportsmanship......... That kind of sounds like the base of todays steroid issue.
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O Orlando1,000+ posts
I believe that surgery to correct an injury is a good thing (shall we just break athletes and then throw them away?); but 'bionic' surgery would be unethical.

It's not an easy question, and (like so many other things in life) requires a thoughtful decision as to where you draw the line.

Say a pitcher is having trouble with his arm, and TJ surgery might need to be done down the line. TJ has been known to enhance pitcher's performance. Is TJ surgery in anticipation of a possible injury ethical, preventitive medicine, or a good excuse to step it up?

At what point on that spectrum are we creating a Super Race for sports amusement and the athlete's monetary gain?
Last edited by Orlando
B brute66100+ posts
"A correction is not the same as an enhancement."

Perhaps. With today's technology, virtually all hitters can obtain vision of 20/20 or better. Will they tell their eye specialist they just want to see good, but not as good as Ted Williams? I doubt it.

"by having an elbow/shoulder enhanced you are potentially creating a "Viagra Arm" which throws blurs the definition of fair play and sportsmanship"

Not likely. As you said, guys are returning to pre-injury velocity or slightly higher. No one is going from 87 mph to 97 mph overnight.
L lhpx2100+ posts
This truly is an interesting topic. And I would think that as medical technology improves (and it is moving along at an amazing pace), we'll have methods available that will make many of our parts "bionic." It may change the whole nature of sport.

In the meantime, though, I'll throw a little cold water on the discussion. TJ surgery is not always successful. My son's roommate, who threw 90+ in HS and was drafted (but didn't sign), had TJ 3 years ago. He barely breaks 84 now. He never got the velocity back. It's not the norm, but it DOES happen.
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
Not likely. As you said, guys are returning to pre-injury velocity or slightly higher. No one is going from 87 mph to 97 mph overnight.


I hope I did not mis-construe the mph portion as a 10mph increase would be off the board. Baseball players careers are usually limited by physical ability that goes hand in hand with longevity. A physical "enhancement" may provide that player a longer career which would not be fair to other players that would not have a medical procedure that would extend their career.

quote:
In the meantime, though, I'll throw a little cold water on the discussion. TJ surgery is not always successful...

lhpx2, Please don't go there as I'm still heavily medicated and in therapy trying to rationalize last months bummer pull_hair...............Just kidding, I'm aware of the realities
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rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
Interestingly, the base of todays' steroids issue is player safety.


I'd have to disagree. That is the glossed over PC version. Bottom line the issue is un-natural performance enhancement that skews the record books. I don't think that Barrys or Rafeals health is the major issue for being scorned by the baseball world. Any health concerns are politcally motivated by vote seeking politicians who also turned their back years ago.
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B brute66100+ posts
I completely agree rz...the ethical issues are dicey for sure.

Consider this: should a pitcher who has had TJ as a result of an injury be monitored by radar and called for a "no pitch" if he throws one at a higher velocity than he was previously capable of? A case could be made that it would be only fair to the other pitchers...
rz1rz15,000+ posts
Brute66,

I think it's way to early to make any rule. However, I would bet in time, and if data supports the fact that any procedure that is proven to be a performance enhancer would have to be justified/blessed by MLB as a repaired injury and seconded by an unbiased medical party.

I don't think you can penalize someone for getting a career ending injury fixed. If someone has an ACL injury and works to get faster should we add weight to his shoes? If a hitter has back surgery, works his average up post-op, should we make him use a smaller bat? Too many fuzzy edges.

We are in a speculative mode here and only time will tell where this goes. My point was that the steroid issue has festered for years and is only now being addressed. The sad part is to cover thier own assses MLB is looking into the past to judge the suspected violaters. Being the visionary I am (or more likely it's being bored with no baseball), I can potentially see the same type problems in the future regarding surgical enhancements.
Last edited by rz1
B brute66100+ posts
I appreciate your view rz...if Ligament Augmentation Surgery (I just made that up) reaches a point where it yields the astounding advantages that steroids has, I'm sure you're correct in that it will become regulated.

I feel there are limits to what can be achieved. If, for example, such procedures could be performed on a number of different parts of the body to produce a "super athlete", chances are they would require massive doses of...you guessed it...steroids in order to get the body to respond to the grafts. Obviously the new rules wouldn't allow for that.

On another note, best wishes to your boy for a speedy recovery and a successful career.
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RusteRuste10+ posts
My son was fitted for and has received the tinted contacts for baseball. There are two kids on the team with these. The coach told both players that if the whole team doesn't have them , they will not be allowed to wear them during the season. These amplify the ball because it deadens out the background colors. Even though I paid for these I can understand the coaches point and will follow it. The same point can go on for just about every aspect of the game. Better bats,shoes,gloves? Golf has a pretty tight handle on what clubs and balls are allowed in the pro's. Even race car drivers have to follow the limites on cars. Who's to say where it's going to end or start on some sports. It also has to be a personal moral issue also. If you are going to have to cheet the system, you will do just about anything to gat ahead.
StyleMismatchStyleMismatch100+ posts
quote:
Statistics now show that ~90% of those worked on have returned to, or exceeded their pre-surgery velocity levels.


I've heard Dr. Joe Chandler of the Atlanta Braves speak on this subject. He was very adamant that TJ surgery in no way can enhance an athlete to better than pre-injury performance. I suspect that maybe some athletes have played for a lengthy amount of time with lingering injuries, and the surgery has allowed them to get back somewhere close to their pre-injury performance level. Besides, despite the level of advancement in the surgery it is still not 100% safe.
rz1rz15,000+ posts
Stlye,

Good points and it may be that the atletes come back in that shape because of the conditioning regime. The surgery itself is not the reason, it's the rehab that accompanies it. The improvements that we are speaking of are minor in comparison to medical breakthroughs. The "ultimate body" is not that far fetched.

They never thought that Utley (?) the d-lineman for the detroit lions would ever do what he now does after his spinal injury. The combination of medicine and athletic conditioning can be magical. Our medical sights have always been set on repair and with the $ investment in todays athletes I think you will see a shift little shift in the R&D areas.

However, I doubt they will ever allow an extension cord on the mound outside machine pitch LL. Wink
HeyBatterHeyBatter1,000+ posts
As noted above, several hitters have had eye surgery to improve their vision although their sight was "normal". Several pitchers, I believe Greg Maddux is one, have also done the same.
There is definitely a fine line being danced around with these types of things. I guess the major difference between this and certain drugs (steroids) is that the surgeries are not illegal. Ethical noidea
observer44observer441,000+ posts
.

IMO...the next big thing and it has the chance to completely revolutionize sports as we know is....Gene therapy...Undetectable becasue it's your genetic material and there are no drugs involved...

You take the players genes out, re-engineer them with instructions to do anything you wish.....bigger, stronger faster, quicker...

Not quite there yet but the technology is not far off...

Why risk surgery when you can get a customized body in any way you choose...with a simple shot...

Cool 44
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