Another situation

 Stats, I wasn't there so I don't know, but I'll post the counter:

10.12 The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:

(1) whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) prolongs the time at bat of a

batter, prolongs the presence on the bases of a runner or permits a runner to

advance one or more bases, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, such

fielder deliberately permits a foul fly to fall safe with a runner on third base

Rule 10.12

If it is an obvious out play if, with ordinary effort the player would've been out, then I could score an error for the "non-out" based on the above.

;

Originally Posted by JMoff:

 Stats, I wasn't there so I don't know, but I'll post the counter:

10.12 The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:

(1) whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) prolongs the time at bat of a

batter, prolongs the presence on the bases of a runner or permits a runner to

advance one or more bases, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, such

fielder deliberately permits a foul fly to fall safe with a runner on third base

Rule 10.12

If it is an obvious out play if, with ordinary effort the player would've been out, then I could score an error for the "non-out" based on the above.

;

The operative phrase there is “If it is an obvious out play”. Sitting 150-200 away from a play that takes place in the blink of an eye, its got to be pretty darn obvious to me before I’ll ding a fielder on a throw that hits a runner in a rundown.

I'd say no error on the throw if it was going to be bang bang or a close play.  If he had him by 15 or 20' I might feel different.  

I might score the runner advancing to 2nd as a fielders choice since he was retreating to first and the SS apparently had a possible play on both and choose to go after the lead runner which then allowed him to advance.  But all in all I probably end up with SB and no error. 

Originally Posted by luv baseball:

I'd say no error on the throw if it was going to be bang bang or a close play.  If he had him by 15 or 20' I might feel different.  

I might score the runner advancing to 2nd as a fielders choice since he was retreating to first and the SS apparently had a possible play on both and choose to go after the lead runner which then allowed him to advance.  But all in all I probably end up with SB and no error. 

I can’t say it would have been a bang-bang play, but for sure it would have had to be a great throw, catch, and tag, with the catcher not having the time to move inside or out.

To tell the truth, I didn’t understand why the F6 didn’t just try to put out R1, but I suspect that in the excitement of the game he lost track of the number of outs. But to me it makes no difference because R1 started the process of a steal as soon as he took off for 2^nd. Once that happens, for me its either gonna be a SB if he gets to 2^nd, a CS if he gets put out, an error if he didn’t get put out and it was obvious there was a misplay, or nothing if he gets back safely.

At a minimum it sounds like the play at third was what I would call a "close play" even if they did everything perfectly the play was going to be pretty tight.  So based on that I am still no error.

A reading of Rule 2 on a Fielders Choice in combination with Rule 10.08 on Stolen Bases argues for the SB ruling.  If the defense had recorded the out on R1 it would have been scored a Caught Stealing.

Originally Posted by luv baseball:

At a minimum it sounds like the play at third was what I would call a "close play" even if they did everything perfectly the play was going to be pretty tight.  So based on that I am still no error.

A reading of Rule 2 on a Fielders Choice in combination with Rule 10.08 on Stolen Bases argues for the SB ruling.  If the defense had recorded the out on R1 it would have been scored a Caught Stealing.

You’re correct, the play at 3^rd would have at best been a close play. But the trouble with many folks who don’t do a lot of scoring is, they try to inject what they think would have happened, rather than what actually took place.

Had R3 been say 30’ from 3^rd and heading back and F2 had hit him  in the back, I wouldn’t have had any trouble scoring it an error myself. But at most he was only 25’ from 3^rd when he stopped and headed back because F6 ceased play on R1. The throw had to go the 120’ from the F6 to the plate, then from the F2 to F5 at 3^rd. Now these are some young strong players, but to throw a ball that far allowing for the catches and transfers or tags isn’t going to come across as a sure thing when the runner only needs to go bas 25’.

In the end, I understand how someone could make that call, but they’d be wrong.

Stats, I agree with you that R1 gets a steal of 2nd.  If anything, I would say a pickoff attempt at R3, but that's it.  Assigning an error would assume R3 would have been out with a perfect throw and I'm not sure you can conclude that.  Since he didn't advance anywhere there's no error in my book.

Cavtrooper,

I’m sure agreein’ with a lot of folks lately. I don’t know if they’re gettin’ smarter or I’m gettin’ dumber.

What you said about no runner advancing on the play is an important part of the equation that people seem to often miss. I think that comes from folks ASSUMING that a runner would have been out if the ball wasn’t dropped, hit the runner, bounced on the grass, or some other reason. But when one thinks about it, there are a load of times every game when an error “could” be scored.

Re-reading this, I would agree with R1 SB and R3 nothing, based on the comment "It would've taken a perfect throw". I agree with earlier point that the runner should've been out by a wide margin to call an error.

I was only trying to mix it up in my previous post.

The one that gets me on the rule reference is the foul pop, that is ordinary effort but dropped, extends the AB but no E is scored (this hitter will almost always plug a gap).