Another VHSL Bat Rule Change or misinterpretation by coach?

I might have found the problem. The 2011 Demarini Vendetta is on the banned list (even though it is metal). There is nothing about the 2010 Demarini Vendetta. Does anyone know if there is an issue with the 2010 Demarini Vendetta?

Vendetta is an alloy bat, HOWEVER, if an alloy bat is not BESR stamped, it is not legal for 2011. Come 2012, only BBCOR stamped bats are allowed, i.e., BESR will not be allowed. So let's start with that: is the bat stamped BESR? If not...

What is bothersome is the statement in your posting: "The coach said they just received an e-mail of another change having to do with the handle design not being allowed (whatever that means)." Is there any way you can get a copy of that email? Can you share the content in that email (incl. date and time sent)? There is nothing on VHSL.org that points to a last second change from what they have posted on http://www.vhsl.org/news/1022101287759090_news.html:"Aluminum bats, Aluminum Alloy bats and Aluminum barrel bats with composite handles that are BESR WILL BE allowed for this year BUT will not be legal after January 1, 2012."

The bat is BESR stamped. I checked all of my son's bats once I found out about the new rule for this year.

I also checked the VHSL website and I've sent an e-mail to the VHSL asking if there has been another change. I also know an umpire and sent him a note.

I'll see if I can get a copy of the e-mail. The more I think about it, there seems to be confusion between the 2011 Demarini Vendetta C6 (composite), the 2011 Demarini Vendetta (metal), and the 2010 Demarini Vendetta (metal). I'm hoping VHSL can straighten that out.

Dont wait for VHSL to respond. I asked for clarification 8 weeks ago and no answer.

Check these sites and look for the model number of your sons bat, find out its classification and then apply the VHSL rules....Most alloy bats (even if composite handle) are allowed for 2011..


http://www.nfhs.org/content.aspx?id=4155

http://m-5.eng.uml.edu/umlbrc/ncaa_certified_bats.asp

I found the answers to my sons bat here, printed it off and carry it with us to games.

Crazy, huh?

Thanks for the recommendation. Took me awhile to find the bat (DeMarini changed the model number). I printed out a picture with the model number from an on-line store, the listing from the NCAA site indicating that it is alloy and BESR, and the list of NFHS approved composite bats that VHSL is not allowing (just to point out the confusion regarding the Vendetta and that it is not the same bat as my son's). Hopefully this will work.

I am so looking forward to next year when they just require BBCOR.

By the way, did you know that American Legion has not only banned all composite bats for the 2011 season but have included metal barrel, composite handle bats in the ban? You can find it here:

http://www.legion.org/baseball...anges-baseball-speed

Just closing the loop on this one. I received an e-mail from Mr. Dolan of the VHSL confirming that it is the Demarini Vendetta C6 that is banned and that my son's aluminum bat is legal for this year.

My son will be carrying that e-mail with him for the entire season (along with all of the other information I printed out yesterday).

We had a kid this week get slapped with a ban as well. Ejected from the game and 2 game suspension. The umpires checked the bats before the game and then on his first at-bat they declared the bat illegal and booted him. He had used the bat the previous night with no issues and the umps had not declared it illegal in the pre-game checks. When the coach confronted the umps about why they had not mentioned it during the bat check they claimed to have not seen it, even though there were two of the same bats sitting out in the line they checked. Ultimately it is the coach and kids fault but you would like to think that the umpires would have some integrity that if they looked and did not say something pre-game that they would not claim something else once the game started... Too bad for the kid but a painful lesson learned...

This is all simple to fix....the rule should make it illegal for any player to use a personal bat- all teams would use the same bats that would be owned by the teams

If it was truly for safety reasons then they should have gone to BBCOR now. Otherwise leave it alone. Its this half-in, half-out garbage that creates the mess. Since its ultimately the school's responsibility, as far as the rule is concerned, to ensure that the bats are legal then having them own them still doesn't ensure that they are legal, otherwise they would have stopped the player from using it to begin with. The fact that one ump told the player at the beginning of the season that the bat was legal, 2 more had no issues in the first game and yet 2 others said it was illegal and toss him tells me that the rule itself is too ambiguous and needs clarification. Which has also proven to be tough...

quote:

Originally posted by hsbasballfan:
This is all simple to fix....the rule should make it illegal for any player to use a personal bat- all teams would use the same bats that would be owned by the teams

And who do you expect will pay for the team bats? Many schools have had their athletic funding cut back so that they can barely pay for the baseballs.

I think the fact that the schools don't pay for the bats has made it easier for the NFHS and VHSL to accelerate the new bat rules. I carefully checked in May 2010 before purchasing a composite bat as to whether it would be legal for use in 2011. At that time, the rules clearly stated that it would be useable in 2011. A few months later, I was stuck with a new illegal bat. Do you think the NFHS and VHSL would stick the schools in such a way?

And what makes you think that the bat will be legal just because it is school owned? There has been so much confusion on this bat issue.

quote:

Originally posted by NOVABBall13:
We had a kid this week get slapped with a ban as well. Ejected from the game and 2 game suspension. The umpires checked the bats before the game and then on his first at-bat they declared the bat illegal and booted him. He had used the bat the previous night with no issues and the umps had not declared it illegal in the pre-game checks. When the coach confronted the umps about why they had not mentioned it during the bat check they claimed to have not seen it, even though there were two of the same bats sitting out in the line they checked. Ultimately it is the coach and kids fault but you would like to think that the umpires would have some integrity that if they looked and did not say something pre-game that they would not claim something else once the game started... Too bad for the kid but a painful lesson learned...

What happened re the two of the same bats sitting out in the line? Were they used in the game and what happened to their users? The punishment for the use of an illegal bat is WAY OUT OF LINE when the adults (coaches, umpires, etc.) can't even get it straight. The VHSL has indicated that its rule has been clearly stated from the start. Yet, sometime this year, way after their October 2010 announcement, they added information that a composite handle was ok, information that was not in their original announcement.

In county we live in there never has been an athletic budget...all funding is provided through booster club just like always.

Every kid owning a bat is something new that has come about in the last 15 or 20 years...so let the teams own the bats- like they used to

3 bats = $1,000 dollars / 20 kids on the team = $50 per kid...family can pay or participate in a fundraiser.

I know you struggle with math so get you calculator our for this one....under current method assuming 20 kids x $300 per family for a "personal bat" = $6,000

Simplifies the problem greatly and makes it more fair for families that can't afford a new high performance bat every season.

Not sure there is a down side unless you sell bats for a living

Guys, in Virginia this really is far more simple than just about every other state. It's all about the barrel of the bat.

For HS, any BESR METAL barrel bat is legal for this season. Any composite barrel BESR bat is ILLEGAL.

Any BBCOR bat is legal no matter what material.

Next year and forward, only BBCOR will be legal no matter what it is made of.

That really is it.

quote:

Originally posted by WB Reporter:

What happened re the two of the same bats sitting out in the line? Were they used in the game and what happened to their users? The punishment for the use of an illegal bat is WAY OUT OF LINE when the adults (coaches, umpires, etc.) can't even get it straight. The VHSL has indicated that its rule has been clearly stated from the start. Yet, sometime this year, way after their October 2010 announcement, they added information that a composite handle was ok, information that was not in their original announcement.

One of the bats was used by the kid who was ejected. The plate ump ejected him and then there was a discussion about the bat and it was pointed out that it had been out and inspected already. Umps claimed they didn't see it. One of the other kids pointed out that he also had the exact bat sitting out so the coach told him to put it back in his bag. Its just ridiculous that 3 sets of umpires could not agree on whether the bat was legal and yet you are going to toss a kid out for what amounts to 3 games.

I agree, to some it might appear to be just "so simple" but it obviously is not. This forum has a number of posts regarding this issue and folks who have been around baseball for many, many years still appear to be confused on the issue. As I said, if it is a safety issue then we should be at BBCOR now. Unfortunately is appears that the bat company lobbied hard enough to get it pushed back a year so that they didn't sacrifice money for safety...

As for me, I would rather buy my son's bats. He is very particular about the bat he uses as are most kids so I don't need the school buying one for him. I also had bought my son a new bat last year and ended up having to buy a new one this year as well. I will again have to buy another one next year so I guess that it all worked out exactly as the bat makers hoped it would...

quote:

Originally posted by hsbasballfan:
Simplifies the problem greatly and makes it more fair for families that can't afford a new high performance bat every season.

If one were purchasing a new bat every season, then I don't think it would be an issue with the change in the rules. One would just purchase a bat which was legal for the season. The problem is for those who don't purchase a new bat every season but who have purchased bats planning for them to last more than one season.

quote:

Originally posted by NOVABBall13:

One of the bats was used by the kid who was ejected. The plate ump ejected him and then there was a discussion about the bat and it was pointed out that it had been out and inspected already. Umps claimed they didn't see it. One of the other kids pointed out that he also had the exact bat sitting out so the coach told him to put it back in his bag. Its just ridiculous that 3 sets of umpires could not agree on whether the bat was legal and yet you are going to toss a kid out for what amounts to 3 games.

Your story shows that no player is protected by subjecting his bat to inspection before the game. From the player's perspective, the solution may be for each batter, each and every time he goes to the plate, to ask the umpire if his bat is legal. Then no player should be subject to the ejection and suspension rules.

quote:

I agree, to some it might appear to be just "so simple" but it obviously is not. This forum has a number of posts regarding this issue and folks who have been around baseball for many, many years still appear to be confused on the issue. As I said, if it is a safety issue then we should be at BBCOR now. Unfortunately is appears that the bat company lobbied hard enough to get it pushed back a year so that they didn't sacrifice money for safety...

Let me clarify the "simple" comment. After re-reading it, it does come across as a bit condescending and that was definitely not my intent.

No doubt this issue has been very confusing as we approached the season. I myself have said so several different times. Different states doing different things and composite being in, then out then back in. So I agree 100%, it HAS been confusing. NOW it's very clear for Virginia High School players.

BESR Metal barrel bats legal for 2011
BESR Composite barrel bats illegal for 2011 and forward.
BBCOR anything barrel bats in for 2011 and moving forward.
No BESR anything after this season.

As for safety, I think the bigger concern was with the composite bats since they would get so hot after break in. Those things were absolutely insane. In fact, I wonder if we have any rule change at all if not for the composites completely blowing up the BESR standards. Ironically, it did give the sanctioning bodies the opportunity to create the new BBCOR standards for ALL bats which I think is a great thing for safety and the game in general.

That being said, I have tried to understand the "why's" surrounding these changes for some time but have now moved to the "it is what it is". I stopped trying to rationalize all the “whys” because it was just driving me crazy.

I am grateful we don’t have to deal with the California rules. Now THAT is a mess for everyone.

The VHSL is still clear as mud, to wit:
"While we are still working with the NFHS regarding our position to deny use of the seven BESR-ABI composite bats they have waived, the VHSL position and the NFHS rule as written for the 2010-2011 season remains"

So, does this mean that the waived bats may be ruled legal during the season? What effect would that have on penalties? If there's no plan to make any change, why publish the above?
Agreed that VHSL has done a better job than CA, but that's not saying a great deal...

FWIW, why was the bat ruled ineligible?

Jess1, I saw that on the VHSL web site also and wondered. I suspect that by this time most of the players with bats ruled legal on the NFHS list but not legal in Virginia will have acquired new bats so it will be a moot issue.

I just don't understand the VHSL position on not following the list. I know that Mr. Dolan has been quoted as saying it is a safety issue but it appears that the composite bats on the NFHS legal list which don't carry the BBCOR stamp have been tested to determine if they meet the safety standards that BBCOR seeks to implement. The listing says "COMPOSITE BATS THAT MEET THE BALL EXIT SPEED RATIO (BESR) AND THE ACCELERATED BREAK IN (ABI) PROCEDURE." My impression is that they have been tested to be as safe as stamped bats but their manufacture may predate the BBCOR labeling process. (Hence, the player who did not annually replace his bat might have one.) If it is tested to be just as safe as the labeled ones, then I don't understand the VHSL saying it is a safety issue.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jess1:
The VHSL is still clear as mud, to wit:
"While we are still working with the NFHS regarding our position to deny use of the seven BESR-ABI composite bats they have waived, the VHSL position and the NFHS rule as written for the 2010-2011 season remains"

So, does this mean that the waived bats may be ruled legal during the season? What effect would that have on penalties? If there's no plan to make any change, why publish the above?
Agreed that VHSL has done a better job than CA, but that's not saying a great deal...

[QUOTE]

I take that statement to be an acknowledgment of the VHSL that the NFHS has done something that they have no interest in doing. The rest of their statement was pretty clear:


~~~~

NFHS Composite Bat Rule Change UPDATE



While we are still working with the NFHS regarding our position to deny use of the seven BESR-ABI composite bats they have waived, the VHSL position and the NFHS rule as written for the 2010-2011 season remains:



- Only BBCOR Composite Bats will be allowed for this academic year.

- Aluminum bats, Aluminum Alloy bats and Aluminum barrel bats with composite handles that are BESR WILL BE allowed for this year BUT will not be legal after January 1, 2012.

The VHSL will not be producing a list of legal or illegal bats because some bat manufacturers have not changed the name of their bats in this transition process (BBCOR from BESR certification). Each bat will need to be checked for composition (aluminum or composite) and certification level (BBCOR or BESR).

If something changes regarding the VHSL position on this issue member schools will be provided immediate notification and it will be posted on the VHSL website.

http://www.vhsl.org/news/0131111296504026_news.html

~~~~

Quite frankly, I think the NFHS put everyone in an impossible situation by allowing some non BBCOR composite bats this year. Absolutely NO reason to introduce that type of confusion to the mix.

I also still think Virginia made the best out of a terrible situation by not abiding by the NFHS rules.

Put it this way. If there is confusion now with a black and white rule (only BBCOR composites allowed), could you imagine what it must be like knowing there is a list of BESR composite bats umps, coaches and parents must also keep up with this year?

It's insane. I don't think there is any way to please even a majority of folks this year much less everyone.

Has anyone heard how this is all going to effect legion ball this year or next?

I hae heard Legion has adopted the BBCOR rules - meaning no composite handle bats like the one that are legal in VHSL... I guess Legion has to consider that they have college players on their rosters?

Will kind of be tough for kids who have used bats in HS that thy will not be allowed to use this summer?

Palomino Baseball (Pony) same age as Legion will not have restrictions in the 2011 season.

quote:

Originally posted by bballguy123:
Has anyone heard how this is all going to effect legion ball this year or next?

Legion is placing a moritorium on any bat that has any composite material for this year. That includes BBCOR composite bats.

Kind of scratching my head on their rule since they are going to allow BESR Metal but not a BBCOR composite. Just my opinion but I thnk they would have been better off going all BBCOR (or wood) and keep BESR out. To me, that would make much more sense from a saftey and ease of enforcement standpoint.

They go to all BBCOR for 2012.

Like I said before, if you try and figure out the "why's" behind some of these rules, it will drive you crazy.

According to my wife, that is a pretty short trip for me.

If my son plays Legion this year, I'm going to highly recommend that he just use a wood bat. He prefers wood anyways.

By the way, was the "illegal" bat really illegal?

Mr. Dolan (VHSL) acknowledged that there is confusion about the Vendetta (which is what started this discussion). My son's coaches did figure out that my son's bat is the metal one but I'm still pushing him to carry the e-mail from Mr. Dolan that specifically says his bat is legal. Of course, my son thinks that is unnecessary (until a confused umpire boots him out of a game). He may have to learn this lesson the hard way.

VaRHPmom, I remember a post by Midlo Dad some time ago talking about getting a bat taken away whether the ump was correct or not (BBCOR related discussion). If I recall, he was saying it was far more likely to happen than not and his advice was to make sure there was a backup "team" bat that had no questions as to it's legality.

Sounds like some great advice.