Any correlation between fast legs and fast arms?

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Doesn't really matter if there actually is a direct scientific correlation between Fast twitch muscle fiber %'s in the arm and those in the legs....if college and professional recruiters BELEIVE there is, then there is. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

I can tell you from experience that they do. All other things being equal this is the recruiting reality at the moment...

a successful, skilled pitcher with low velocity and footspeed is "projectable."

while a successful, skilled pitcher with low velocity and NO footspeed is NOT "projectable."

It is hard to refute this view when the second pitcher is not offered the opportunity to develop as a result of this perception.



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Interesting. I've never heard that scouts pay attention to pitchers' 60 times except as they may relate to defensive skills.
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Establishing a link involves adjusting several complex factors that cloud the relationship between running speed and throwing speed:

1) Body weight: Being heavy kills running speed, but doesn't affect throwing speed much.

2) Height: Being tall has little effect on running speed (and I think that extremely tall kids tend to be slower), but height appears to increase throwing speed.

What appears to be a direct correlation might just be a young athletic player being compared to a not too athletic player. I don't think there is any significant correlation between EXCEPTIONAL arm speed and EXCEPTIONAL foot speed. I’ve seen too many speedsters that had average arms and many pitchers that could bring it from the mound but were as slow as molasses. But to settle it maybe we could have a "fantasy” contest.
Colt Griffin vs. Michael Johnson.
Donavan Bailey vs. Randy Johnson.
The feature event could be Secretariat vs. Nolan Ryan?

So many pitchers train their lower body for endurance that their legs get massive and they develop "pitcher's butts". This kills running speed, but provides the strength to increase velocity and the endurance to go deep into games. A pitcher, throwing from the mound uses his lower body so much in his delivery, that developing it has to be a priority.

He has to run fast enough to cover 1st base, but that is mainly quickness (reacting quickly and getting moving in that direction automatically) instead of speed.

This is also a new analogy for me

I for one do not worry about 60 times for a pitcher---I am more concerned if he throws strikes and gets outs

Once again I ask-- are we getting to "technical" here?

Listened to a talk today where intangibles were mentioned as a thing nobody looks at anymore but in the end the intangibles are the key to a players success

Baseball is not that difficult a game-- if you understand it

I wonder how many scholarships have been offered to D1 pitchers by colleges that have never seen them run, just walk to the mound, throw strikes and walk to the dugout. I'd say it was probably the vast majority of them. At most of the showcases I've watched, the pitchers were asked if they wanted to run the 60. It wasn't expected of them.

They may have watched them jog before/after the game just to make sure that the knew what running was.

quote:

They may have watched them jog before/after the game just to make sure that the knew what running was.

Only if they were Lefties

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I'm back to perception.


While I personally agree that footspeed correlates indirectly to velocity.....

I can tell you for a fact that after talking to them many college coaches are now projecting pitchers future velocity increases based upon footspeed. Again it is a self fulfilling prophesy.

TR...Yes IMO...far too technical and far to difficult. It is an easy game with the space and time built in to over analyze and get over technical. Love the simple approach.

Fungo..Agreed. Beyond old timer and contributor,...?? WOW! Any man who can write his own ticket..er...I mean moniker has my utmost respect.


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If (a BIG IF) it's true that running speed correlates highly with ultimate throwing speed then how can that info be of use?

One possibility: A HS coach has two pitchers of same age, height and weight. Both top out at 80 mph. One runs fast; the other is a slug.

The coach might encourage the fast runner to work harder on his top out speed with periods of 100% velocity practice during the off-season to reach his potential.

OTOH: The coach might conclude that the slug had reached his genetic speed limit. Such a pitcher might do better developing trick pitches, working on control and keeping his arm healthy.

I don't believe it's true ... I think you are chasing a phantom here.

I remember a quote from Paul Byrd ... "I'm not an athlete, I'm a pitcher".

I don't believe that David Wells would have ever won a speed contest in his prime either. Clemmons isn't slowing down much, but he's no sprinter either ... hasn't been for ages.

It sounds like someone's favorite generality that could be used as a method of "culling" kids out. Of dubious use beyond HS even if it is of use in HS. There are too many exceptions to the supposed "rule" to make it useful or accurate.

You may be thinking of fast twitch muscles vs slow twitch muscles. Sprinters tend to have more fast twitch muscles in their legs and also tend to have relatively muscular legs although that isn't an absolute.

There isn't a one to one correlation with having a high percentage of fast twitch fibers in the legs and having fast twitch fibers in the arms.

While being a fast runner may increase the chances of having a good throwing arm somewhat, being a slow runner doesn't mean that a pitcher can't throw the ball hard. In addition to fast twitch fibers there are a lot of other factors that go into throwing a ball fast such as arm length, leverage, attachment points, coordination, etc.

More simply, if you want to know if a pitcher can throw fast watch him throw, don't watch him run.

Nawp, my arms move fast about the table and legs move slow about the track.

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HHH...Agreed, but Wells, and Clemmons were never in question. See these rules don't apply for the Blues because they are above the bubble.
By the time they were drafted/recruited they have already proven that they have a high % of fast twitch muscle fibres in their arms. It's only for those college recruits at the next rung which is 80% of the players.


So, McGuy...

Here is your second scenerio...a showcase....college coaches looking at players...The guys who throw 88+ are out of this loop. They qualify already. Now they are considering the second or third tier: the guys that are going to come onto the board after
the Blues verbal and sign. All other things being equal I take the fastest runner because he has more fast twitch. And this scenerio is indeed happening, I can asuure you.

CADAD...While I too believe that there is little correlation between a high % of fast twich mucles fibres in the legs and the Arms there are college coaches out there who do. So we may not agree with them but if we want our sons recruited it might be agood idea to pay attention and be aware. If they belive it, it is true, if we want to be recruited. Also would interested to see a study comparing arms and legs.



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observer44,
Unfortunately, at this point in time the only way to accurately assess the ratio of fast twitch to slow twitch fibers is a biopsy and not many people want to go through that. So I don't think we'll see that study. I wonder if there's a difference in conductivity of the fibers and if you could devise a test around that?

I was wondering why my son's running speed isn't what it used to be and wondering what his mix of fast twitch fibers is. But the last couple years in a row he's won a competition at his arm strength and conditioning camp consisting of who can balance on one leg the longest with the rest of the body parallel to the ground. It says a lot for his balance, mental toughness and savvy (he picks the most level ground to balance on). Unfortunately, it also says that he probably has a high percentage of slow twitch fibers in his legs.

In the meantime he'll keep working on the running speed because it can only help.

Observer ...

Nice observation, but I'll still disagree based on one thing.

If you watch a guy condition and compete as a pitcher, you will notice a couple things:

1. He runs a lot of distance endurance (training/developing the slow-twitch muscle fibers). He pitches .. his lower body in acting in a repeatable slow motion (again slow twitch).

2. He throws in games (fast-twitch), developing those muscles. He throws long-toss ...(same thing happening).

There is an old saying in the coaching ranks that "perception is reality", but I believe that they are "perceiving" themselves out of a bunch of good pitchers.

quote:

Originally posted by OnePlayer'sPop:
My son struggled with the "60 yard dash time" question all through highschool. The HS coach even pinch ran for him when he got a basehit(OK, it got a FAST freshman some game experience)!

Once it was determined that son would be drafted as a pitcher, a friend/minor league manager put it in proper perspective: "How fast do you need to be to jog from the dugout to the pitcher's mound?"

Post Script- son's arm speed(mph) has increased since HS, 60 yard dash is no longer measured, but he is still pretty close to the fastest on the team in the 2+ mile run.

Did I help anyone?

OPP

P.S. Fungo, Congratulations on your new "title"/"avitar"... you have probably earned it but it won't help you catch many more fish.

p.p.s Mn-Mom, I just took notice that you left an "r" out of my avitar. f.a."r".mer!!!!! Twang!

OPP you have a PM thanks!

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HHH...Can I send your post to the college coaches? Makes a great deal of very simple sense. Love the notion of colleges perceiving themselves out of a bunch of good pitchers. Nice answer.

CADAD...I'd offer to sign up for that biopsy but I have been assured without an shadow of a doubt that that there is NO fast twitch left, brain included.

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OPP,
Do you know when and if OPPjr is scheduled to go against the Dodgers? I'm planning to go to one game in that series with my son.

mtowndad, no e-mails yet.

CADad,

(X fingers) Pirate's website says that he is scheduled to start first game of Friday doubleheader. Your guess is as good as mine for what(if) he has a LA start. They talk about having a 6 man rotaion now, but I am not sure when it started, who the 6 are... you get the drift... best advice is to check you local mass-media. Hope you and your son get to attend a couple of good games!!

OPP

Yes, I believe there is a direct correlation between fat arms and fat legs. I have both, and they go together.

Mine is slow as a slug. Throws in the 90's.
No one ever asked or cared about how fast he could or could not run. If he was being considered for a scholarship based on pitching ability and speed, he would have been out of luck.

He runs and runs and runs, for lower body and stamina, not to run faster from the mound to first, or from the mound to the dugout.

FYI, was pretty fast as a youngster, was the best base stealer. Around 14 he lost speed when his long legs took control over his body and he lost the speed.
Does that count?

I'll go with HHH on this one.

The answer is NO.

OPP,
Thanks for the info.

There are certain things that seem to go together. Good arm – good power is one that comes to mind. Nothing is consistent, but it’s amazing how many power hitters have very strong arms.

Fast legs – fast arm, have very little in common. In fact, it’s amazing how many speed players have weak arms. Once again there are always exceptions.

Regarding pitchers here is my opinion. I actually do like to see pitchers run because it can show athleticism. If there were two identical pitchers in size and pitching ability the one who is most athletic projects better IMO (has the better chance to improve)

However, this athletic ability can be shown in other ways than running speed. It can be shown in hitting (hand/eye coordination, rhythm, timing, etc.), Fielding (body control, instincts, fluidity, etc.)

At events I try to keep track of players who are shagging BP. I’ve seen some of the top pitching prospects show athletic ability fielding balls during BP.

In Maryland (Aflac Classic) last month we saw a pitcher who is ranked one of the best in the country. We knew how good he is on the mound, but I was surprised by how agile and smooth he was fielding ground balls. While 99% of the interest he creates will be determined by how well he pitches, he added another ingredient in my eyes.

Some of the best pitchers we have had attend our events were very good athletes. Scott Kazmir could run and was a very good outfielder, Jeff Allison could run and was an outstanding athlete, Jeremy Bonderman was a good athlete, Zach Greinke wasn’t fast, but he was an outstanding athlete, nearly all the pitchers who are successful at the highest levels are good athletes.

Bottom line – while there may not be any correlation between fast arms and fast legs, there is some correlation between top pitchers and athletic ability. It’s just that, that athletic ability doesn’t always include fast legs. (If that makes any sense)

Please!.... I understand there are always many exceptions that can be uncovered in baseball. I love the exceptions, it is one of the things that makes the game so great.

Great post PGStaff:

You are one of the few groups who have the data to investigate these correlations. Not many would know the 60-yard times for hundreds of 90-mph HS pitchers. Just as important for research, you may be alone in recording the running times for thousands of ordinary HS pitchers.

Have you all considered writing a book? Dump years of stats into a mainframe and tell us what pops out.

Micdsguy,

Thanks, we do have tons of data and I guess it could be valuable to some.

Problem is… I’m not sure there is a large enough market for such a book. All the MLB Scouting Departments are aware of the things I mentioned.

There is a writer who is trying to publish a book about Perfect Game. Maybe that will happen… maybe not.

I do not believe there to be a correlation between footspeed and velocity. Examples Eckstein of the Cardinals --good feet, weak arm. Molina (Cardinals) great arm, slow as molasses. My own little brother could throw in the low nineties but I can still out run him, I never could touch 90 though (little bro got me on that one!). Many good position players with very strong arms become pitchers for one of two reasons: they are not good hitters, or they have no foot speed.