appeal

rayporco,

If the umpire judged that the runner who was at third did not leave early (even if he did) then the call stands. If he said he was safe for some other reason then I can't imagine what he was thinking.

Is there something else relative to this situation that you could offer?

Almost a classic case of the unavoidable deficiency of the 2 man umpiring system.....in this case with runners on 1st and third we have 2 umpires....In the accepted mechanics for my chapter a fly ball to center has the base umpire responsible for catch/no catch and the UIC has the tagups.....

In the scenario above the UIC has to try and get into a position to see both tagups.... It is not possible with runners on the corners..... and be in position for any plays at the plate or bases.......

The best bet in this instance is to confirm one and glance at the other.....not the most scientific of mechanics, but without being able to split your eyes 2 ways, there is not much you can do....

All this does is let you know how a runner could be seen as leaving early in your scenario and not be noticed by the umpire.....If i cant confirm him as leaving early, I cant call him out on appeal.....

unless, like Pilsner says, you have some additional information to add, then Id say the call stands as is based on the best information that the 2 umpires had......

As a follow-up question.
Did the umpire award the runner on first 3rd base?

so the ball going out of play on the throw has nothing to do with the appeal? if the ump saw R3 leave early, the appeal is still in effect even though the ball went out of play?

Yes.. thats 2 separate parts of this play.......the appeal of the leaving early is one and as Pirate fan asked, the award for the ball going out of play would be 2......

we have not heard all the info to spell this out completely.....

from the post, I see the appeal was made at 3rd for leaving early and the run scored....the runner from 1st should be awarded 3rd base on the out of play......

Now what really happended.......hopefully we will hear...as an aside.....from the post that must have been one slow runner that a fly ball to the outfield was caught, the runner left early , yet the ball went out of play before the runner scored.....time that boy with a sun dial.....

okay, sorry if these are dumb questions, but I won't let that stop me

what does it matter where the runner was at the time the ball went out of play? I thought everything was based on where the runner was at the time of the throw?

also, let's say that the umps saw both runners leave early. after the ball goes out of play, and is put back in, can the pitcher step off, and throw to third for an appeal? assuming he can, what happens to the runner at first? you can only appeal once, right? so even though the runnner at first left early as well, there's nothing you can do about it, and he would be awarded 2 bases from time of throw, so he'd be at 3rd?

thanks!

I may be way off base here but this is what I would argue if I was coaching the team up to bat. When a ball goes out of play, the runners advance 2 bases from the time of the pitch. Even though the runners left early, they had not advanced and could still return to their bases before the ball arrived to the base without penalty. Since the ball went out of play, no appeal was made and the runners advance 2 bases. Run scores.

iirc, its only 2 bases from the time of the pitch when its the first play in the infield. If the ball goes through, its 2 bases from the time of the throw, not the pitch.

hsballcoach,

go MO is correct the award is from the time of the throw, not the pitch...

The only way to truely determine the actual call is to find out were the runners were at the time of the the throw. If the runners had touched or went past the next base, then they cannot go back and retouch the base that they left early.

The umps will award 2 bases at the time of the throw to the the offensive team, but it will be up to the defence to appeal accordingingly.

goMO,

I believe one of your questions went unanswered.

Regarding appeals as they relate to this play....If the defense appealed at third base and that appeal was denied (run scores) that does not mean that the defense can't also appeal at first base for the runner leaving early.

The ump won't allow more than one appeal on the same runner at the same base but subsequent appeals at other bases or on other runners are permitted so long as the defense is not doing so to make a travesty of the game.

Pilsner - thanks!

so if there was one out on the play. let's say the umps see both runners leaving early. Ball goes out of play. Umps will rule that R3 scores and R1 goes to third. Defense puts ball back in play. Appeals to 3B. Ump calls R3 out for leaving early.
Then, F5 throws ball back to F1. He throws ball to F3, umps calls runner out for leaving early. 3 outs. inning over.

is that correct?

goMO,

If there was only one out when the appeals process began then the result of what you described (both appeals granted) would be three outs, no runs.

Ok, what if the runners got half way there and the Coach Yelled go back you left early??
They started back, and the ball goes out of play. Dead Ball.
Now whats the Answer?

theEH,

If bases are to be awarded as a result of the ball going out of play, the runners must be allowed to complete their base running awards prior to any appeal process.

If, during the dead ball, the runners returned to the bases they left early then proceeded to go to their awarded bases and touched any intervening bases, their advance would now be legal. If the defense appealed that the runner(s) left too early originally, the appeal would be denied.

So it would be a good thing to teach at some point,
That If you think you left early or the coach thought you left early. To go back on the dead ball to your infracted base or bases.
One runner or both runners???
As long as the runner at 3rd, does not go into the dugout?

theEH,

There is a slight catch to this scenario.

If runner is on or beyond the next base to the one he left too early or failed to touch when the ball becomes dead, then he cannot legally return to touch the base

For example:
Runner on first is stealing on the pitch.
Batter hits long fly ball that runner thinks won't be caught.
Outfielder makes great catch and throws to first in an attempt to double off the runner who is now between second and third.
Ball goes out of play before runner gets back between second and first.
Runner cannot legally return to first for tag up and is subject to being called out on appeal.

In the case you mentioned, if the runner on third had advanced to and touched the plate when the ball became dead then he can't legally return to third to tag up and would be called out on appeal.

so in the first case described - runners have been awarded bases after dead ball, with 3B runner scoring & 1B runner now at 3rd

with proper process the ball goes to 3b,
defense states "appeal 3b runner leaving early"

that appeal is either granted (out) or denied (safe) right?

so then can defense immediatly "tag" runner from 1b (who's now standing on 3b)
& state "appeal 1b runner leaving early" instead of throwing the ball around to 1b?

.

Bee>,

I've never seen it done that way but if the ball is live an appeal in that manner satisfies the rule. Either the runner or the base he left early may be tagged. (unless there's some interpretation I'm not aware of, which is very possible)

Of course, if the game is being played under Fed rules the ball doesn't even have to be live. A simple appeal request will do the trick.

i think i meant that if there were no outs. then the catch would be one, the appeal to 3rd would be two, and appeal to 1st would be 3 outs??

Correct!

Thanks, GoMo and piaa. I misspoke. I have not seen this play happen, but will not be suprised when it does. I assume that along the lines of EH's question that since the runners have not advanced to the next base at the time of the throw, they are allowed to return to legally touch the base and then advance to the awarded base without penalty. If they fail to return to the base before advancing, they may be out upon appeal. Is that correct?

hsballcoach,

I guess I opened up a can of worms with my "one base beyond" post.

There are two different determinations to be made.

One is based on time, the other is based on location.

To award bases (how many and from where), the determining factor is "time of pitch" or "time of throw" together with "last base legally occupied".

To determine whether a base runner can legally return to tag-up or retouch a missed base the factor is the location of the runner "when the ball actually becomes dead".