Runner on third two outs, b/r hits ground ball and was thrown out at first runner on third crosses home after the out call was given. The coached appealed the play at first saying the 1st baseman pulled his foot, after conference call was reversed to safe. What should we have done with the runner on third. Allow him to score or return him to third.
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Why would you send him back? The defense failed to make the play, you don't reward them for it.
FWIW: 10.2.3l (that's a small ell) - see 2016 casebook 10.2.3n page 92
Assume appeal made before pitcher and infielders left the field?
Of course if the runner on third ran off the field never touching the plate, then he could be out... That's why 'a' runners are supposed to run hard and 'b' umpires can never assume anything...
Same question/situation - runners on 2nd/3rd... Runner on 2nd had a great jump, is fast, and scores just behind runner from 3rd... Now what? ;-)
On an appeal, could the runner from third actually be called out if he never touched home plate - thinking the inning had ended with the third out called?
On the follow up scenario, I'm guessing the runner doesn't even have to be too quick. I would assume 1B, thinking the third out was called, might roll the ball towards the mound - the guy from second could simply jog to the plate not even thinking it might count.
When does a third out call result in a dead ball situation? Assuming no appeal, the third out ends the inning and the ball does not go live until the umpire indicates a live ball to begin the next half inning. Why does an after the fact appeal negate a dead ball situation?
2017LHPscrewball posted:On an appeal, could the runner from third actually be called out if he never touched home plate - thinking the inning had ended with the third out called?
On the follow up scenario, I'm guessing the runner doesn't even have to be too quick. I would assume 1B, thinking the third out was called, might roll the ball towards the mound - the guy from second could simply jog to the plate not even thinking it might count.
When does a third out call result in a dead ball situation? Assuming no appeal, the third out ends the inning and the ball does not go live until the umpire indicates a live ball to begin the next half inning. Why does an after the fact appeal negate a dead ball situation?
Ultimately, the umpires have the discretion to adjust the play if they believe a team was disadvantaged by their decision to change the original call.
Appeals don't occur in a dead ball situation. The original scenario is not an appeal, it is a request for the umpire to consult with his partner. Appeals are made by the defensive team, and are a claim that the offense violated a rule. There was no claim that a rule was violated - just that the umpire did not make the correct call. That's something that can be done by either team at any time.
Regarding John F's follow-on q about the runner from second trying to score: I'd apply 10.2.3l as best I could. If he had a jump and speed like the U of Maryland player who scored from 2B on a bunt against U of Miami a couple years ago and my judgment was that he would have scored if not for the umpire's overturned call, I'd award him home.
Regarding 2017LHPScrewball's questions about appeals and dead balls: there's no appeal here. It's the UIC's job to rectify the situation so that neither team is placed at a disadvantage by the overturned call. An "out" call is not the same as calling "time," so players are well advised to play hard and smart until it's clear the play is over or an umpire calls time.
I may have a slight disagreement with John F in the unlikely situation that the runner from third still hadn't scored when the subsequently overturned "out" call was made. It's hard to imagine an uninjured runner being this slow, but if it was apparent that the runner heard the out call and then peeled off because of it, I would still have to award him home to prevent his team from being disadvantaged by the overturned call.
It's that peelout or never touching the plate that has me wondering what I'd do. Do I reward the runner for being stupid and not doing what he should be coached to do? If he did run, but didn't touch the plate do I hold off judgement until an appeal is made. That's the short end of a shtick that one doesn't want to be holding. What if that's the tying run, we're going extras, and it's already been 3 hours? If it's the winning run, whoo hoo, I'm dropping my balls and heading for the exit.
Also I guess "technically" since the safe/out at first is not an appeal play, the all infielders & pitcher crossing the foul lines doesn't apply either. At least I know where they get the test questions ;-) and how that casebook grows.
Rob T posted:2017LHPscrewball posted:On an appeal, could the runner from third actually be called out if he never touched home plate - thinking the inning had ended with the third out called?
On the follow up scenario, I'm guessing the runner doesn't even have to be too quick. I would assume 1B, thinking the third out was called, might roll the ball towards the mound - the guy from second could simply jog to the plate not even thinking it might count.
When does a third out call result in a dead ball situation? Assuming no appeal, the third out ends the inning and the ball does not go live until the umpire indicates a live ball to begin the next half inning. Why does an after the fact appeal negate a dead ball situation?
...Appeals don't occur in a dead ball situation...
In NFHS games, they can.
Also, NFHS doesn't have a written caveat to award the touching of bases to runners. Yes, umpires can rectify situations, but we cannot award the actual touching of bases by any rule (unless you include the OBS A.R. that NCAA has within its rules). With that being said, if R3 decides to peel off before reaching HP, by rule you could call him out for abandonment after the changed ruling or send him back to 3B.
These scenarios have so many variables involved that it feels like a HTBT situation to really do it justice. Odds are, you rule in the judgement of 'common sense and fair play' and award bases accordingly, even a runner who would have scored on the play anyway.
We have two job requirements, make it safe, and make it fair.
ALStripes17 posted:Rob T posted:...Appeals don't occur in a dead ball situation...
In NFHS games, they can.
Also, NFHS doesn't have a written caveat to award the touching of bases to runners. Yes, umpires can rectify situations, but we cannot award the actual touching of bases by any rule (unless you include the OBS A.R. that NCAA has within its rules). With that being said, if R3 decides to peel off before reaching HP, by rule you could call him out for abandonment after the changed ruling or send him back to 3B.
These scenarios have so many variables involved that it feels like a HTBT situation to really do it justice. Odds are, you rule in the judgement of 'common sense and fair play' and award bases accordingly, even a runner who would have scored on the play anyway.
We have two job requirements, make it safe, and make it fair.
Yes, I should have clarified the rule set I was speaking of.
On the good side of things, if I ever face the peel off and not touch home part of this scenario - I've got a pretty good idea how to handle it now. Peeling off was the runner's mistake. If he touches home, he gets it - if not he's going back to third. I'm not going to penalize him for an umpire's error, but I'm also not going to reward him for his error.
Now hopefully I will remember this, and not just stand there scratching my head while I try to come up with a ruling.